We are our brothers keepers
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Mallard
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DeBeers is the primary owner and distribution of diamonds and have long held a monopoly on the market but that is starting to change.
The diamond cartel: The cartel isn't for ever | The Economist and The History Of De Beers And Diamonds - Business Insider
The diamond cartel: The cartel isn't for ever | The Economist and The History Of De Beers And Diamonds - Business Insider
Legendary Corals
Valuable Member
Having one place keep all the goods is essentially monopoly. Saying that one place should control the prices... how does this benefit anyone? Creates a system where only the elite can afford and benefit from the nice. How can you expect new people to join the hobby if you keep it out of their reach? You can't compare corals to cars or even dog breeds.
Corals are all found in the wild. They're found by chance, meaning there's no price on them until given one. Cars are priced differently because of, well, how much it actually costs to make them. That's more along the lines of comparing equipment and other technological devices. Whoever creates the price on corals is all based on opinion. Hell, the krakatoa could have gone for $30 and it wouldn't have caused such a stir. It's almost the same as a Spackled Red. That's a great example of where people who can afford to compete with each others create the market price for everyone else.
Dog breeds need lineage because even when fully grown, there's a whole bunch of genetics going on that we don't know about unless given a certificate of proof for a pure bred. I don't exactly see people breeding corals. Lineage would only be a problem when the time comes that people will cross-breed and interbreed species to create new morphs and strains. Until then, if it looks like A, then it is A. Even if it's slightly different, if you got it for a good deal than why would you honestly care. It's close enough, and you bought it for the same reasons as a "lineaged" piece, the looks. If you're buying it just for the sake that it's expensive, then that I suppose is a different issue where you collect pieces to show off how expensive your collection is rather than buying pieces based on what you like. Lineage in my opinion is not necessary.
Even with the whole avengers ordeal, if you were going to shell that much out on a coral, you could take a few moments to ask a few other people you know would know to make sure it's the same or even google. I've seen too many cases of where a hobbyist decides to "trust" the seller rather than trying to confirm it for themselves. And when it gets pointed out that it's not the same, they go and point fingers at someone else rather than themselves for not taking time to research on their purchases. Don't blindly spend your money, take your time and make sure your hard earned money is going in the right direction. The issue with the avengers looks like it was grown to a colony too. It should have been obvious when it colored up if it was an avengers or not. So what I'm wondering is what did the buyer think an avengers looked like this whole time if there was supposedly a night and day difference between the two? It looks like this thread is going in a direction on who needs to take the blame on what happened (minus the whole coral monopoly idea that randomly got inserted).
Here's the scenarios of what can come from this thread that I see: Shrimplet knowingly sold a frag that wasn't an avengers, buyer bought it anyways. Sexy knowingly sold a frag that wasn't an avengers or misplaced it with a browned out frag of it. Either way, Shrimplet bought it meaning he was confident enough to shell the money out that it the avengers. By the time the buyer got a frag from Shrimplet, Shrimplet should have colored it up to know if it was or wasn't an avengers. If it was young and browned out by the time Shirmplet fragged it, the buyer still wanted to buy a browned and young frag, and that's 100% the buyer's call.
So onto who needs to apologize. It's not clear to me whether Mike messed up or not, the story is hard to get clear without Shrimplet's side of the story (if he chimed in, I must have missed it). But Mike's already offered a solution to replace the frags people might be questionable about from him with a replacement. Shrimplet needs to take some blame since he should have colored it up by then to even sell a quality frag, and he should definitely know if it was the avengers or not. And the buyer is at fault as well since he thought it was an avengers too when he bought it. Otherwise why would you buy it if you didn't know what it looks like? People need to stop risking on little frags that "might" be something and buy it on pieces that are definitely what they're looking for with clear photos that make you go "Yup! those are them!"
Corals are all found in the wild. They're found by chance, meaning there's no price on them until given one. Cars are priced differently because of, well, how much it actually costs to make them. That's more along the lines of comparing equipment and other technological devices. Whoever creates the price on corals is all based on opinion. Hell, the krakatoa could have gone for $30 and it wouldn't have caused such a stir. It's almost the same as a Spackled Red. That's a great example of where people who can afford to compete with each others create the market price for everyone else.
Dog breeds need lineage because even when fully grown, there's a whole bunch of genetics going on that we don't know about unless given a certificate of proof for a pure bred. I don't exactly see people breeding corals. Lineage would only be a problem when the time comes that people will cross-breed and interbreed species to create new morphs and strains. Until then, if it looks like A, then it is A. Even if it's slightly different, if you got it for a good deal than why would you honestly care. It's close enough, and you bought it for the same reasons as a "lineaged" piece, the looks. If you're buying it just for the sake that it's expensive, then that I suppose is a different issue where you collect pieces to show off how expensive your collection is rather than buying pieces based on what you like. Lineage in my opinion is not necessary.
Even with the whole avengers ordeal, if you were going to shell that much out on a coral, you could take a few moments to ask a few other people you know would know to make sure it's the same or even google. I've seen too many cases of where a hobbyist decides to "trust" the seller rather than trying to confirm it for themselves. And when it gets pointed out that it's not the same, they go and point fingers at someone else rather than themselves for not taking time to research on their purchases. Don't blindly spend your money, take your time and make sure your hard earned money is going in the right direction. The issue with the avengers looks like it was grown to a colony too. It should have been obvious when it colored up if it was an avengers or not. So what I'm wondering is what did the buyer think an avengers looked like this whole time if there was supposedly a night and day difference between the two? It looks like this thread is going in a direction on who needs to take the blame on what happened (minus the whole coral monopoly idea that randomly got inserted).
Here's the scenarios of what can come from this thread that I see: Shrimplet knowingly sold a frag that wasn't an avengers, buyer bought it anyways. Sexy knowingly sold a frag that wasn't an avengers or misplaced it with a browned out frag of it. Either way, Shrimplet bought it meaning he was confident enough to shell the money out that it the avengers. By the time the buyer got a frag from Shrimplet, Shrimplet should have colored it up to know if it was or wasn't an avengers. If it was young and browned out by the time Shirmplet fragged it, the buyer still wanted to buy a browned and young frag, and that's 100% the buyer's call.
So onto who needs to apologize. It's not clear to me whether Mike messed up or not, the story is hard to get clear without Shrimplet's side of the story (if he chimed in, I must have missed it). But Mike's already offered a solution to replace the frags people might be questionable about from him with a replacement. Shrimplet needs to take some blame since he should have colored it up by then to even sell a quality frag, and he should definitely know if it was the avengers or not. And the buyer is at fault as well since he thought it was an avengers too when he bought it. Otherwise why would you buy it if you didn't know what it looks like? People need to stop risking on little frags that "might" be something and buy it on pieces that are definitely what they're looking for with clear photos that make you go "Yup! those are them!"
I agree with almost all of your statement except the lineage part
If I see a picture of a coral online
I want to buy it because of the coloration,growth etc
Now take the avengers for example
Red polyps are what I see that makes me want to buy it. If someone is advertising it as the avengers. It should have red polyps
There are a lot of similar sps out there that are "close" like you say above but not the same coloration
And that is where lineage comes into play. If the lineage is truthful. I know the piece I buy has the potential to color up to other photos I have seen and it gives me something to base it on. But if it was just a close looking piece than the names given to corals mean absolutely nothing and the collecting aspect of the hobby completely goes away
If there was a law passed right doog away with coral lineage and it means nothing and everyone agreed to follow it You would have 30 people listing avenger frags right now for sale. Would any of them have the real coloration that I was looking for?
Maybe. But it would a total gamble
If I see a picture of a coral online
I want to buy it because of the coloration,growth etc
Now take the avengers for example
Red polyps are what I see that makes me want to buy it. If someone is advertising it as the avengers. It should have red polyps
There are a lot of similar sps out there that are "close" like you say above but not the same coloration
And that is where lineage comes into play. If the lineage is truthful. I know the piece I buy has the potential to color up to other photos I have seen and it gives me something to base it on. But if it was just a close looking piece than the names given to corals mean absolutely nothing and the collecting aspect of the hobby completely goes away
If there was a law passed right doog away with coral lineage and it means nothing and everyone agreed to follow it You would have 30 people listing avenger frags right now for sale. Would any of them have the real coloration that I was looking for?
Maybe. But it would a total gamble
Legendary Corals
Valuable Member
That's where colony photos would come to play in my opinion. If you see a colony that has the same or similar colors and growth structure that you're looking for (which is why you'd buy a coral in the first place), then that takes care of your need to see if your frag has potential to look like "x" coral. The only benefit of "lineage" is if the person you're buying the frag from is making a frag off of a frag, then ask where they got their piece from and see if that person has a colony photo. And even with lineage, you can still get things messed up just like this whole avengers situation. And I'm pretty sure 30 people don't have an acro colony that looks similar enough to the avengers right now. If they did, it would already be called something else and be charged for a lot as well.
We could use the Queen Krakatoa for an example. They've been coming in mari rocks and Golden Basket and Neptunes Cove has been able to get them. They both still sell them as Queen Kraks and people still call them Queen Kraks regardless of lineage. Why is lineage unimportant in a case like that?
I suppose it really depends on what you're looking for in a coral. Some have higher needs than others. I do agree that someone shouldn't be selling an acro that even spot on looks like a RR Avengers shouldn't include the RR in front of the name, because then that implies that it came from RR (which would not be true). They could put whatever else they want in front of it, but not RR. Because that implies something else.
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RichieT
Valuable Member
Seems like it's a total gamble right now anyway. I've heard there were people paying upwards of 1k for a browned out frag that didn't look like the original pictures. People were expecting blue polyps but were only seeing red polyps. That didn't stop vendors from selling it as the original colony (I'm not saying it's not the real deal). They had to trust their sources that they bought the right coral. As hobbyists we have to trust our sources, and those sources happen to be vendors. I guess what I'm saying is that it all really comes down to trust.
The problem starts when people start selling incredibly small frags for profit. Take the rainbow chalices and some of the recent acros. How can you tell one rainbow from another when you literally get a frag smaller than a dime. Same goes for buying a 1/2 inch acro frag. Those purchases are complete gambles. When you sell frags like that there is definitely a possibility to make a mistake.
Fixing that mistake is the sign of a good vendor/seller.
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Richie
Exactly. The vendors are we we know the correctlyineaged pieces are coming from. But buying any lineaged piece from a hobbyist is a gamble. My good friend and poster in this thread hybridazn got burned on a few pieces including the avenger coming from a hobbyist. And it's a trend I'm seeing more and more of with coral prices going higher and higher
Exactly. The vendors are we we know the correctlyineaged pieces are coming from. But buying any lineaged piece from a hobbyist is a gamble. My good friend and poster in this thread hybridazn got burned on a few pieces including the avenger coming from a hobbyist. And it's a trend I'm seeing more and more of with coral prices going higher and higher
1+1=2
RichieT
Valuable Member
No way the vendors get a free pass on this one. They do and will make mistakes. You can't sell 1000s of frags a month and not mistake one coral for another. Especially in a frag system. A few years ago I bought a frag of BPC from Negret, after two years of growth it turns out not to be BPC FT. Honest mistake because at 1/2 inch it's hard to tell and the guy has tons of frags. Do I still hold him responsible, yes.
Buying from hobbyists is what keeps the market affordable. I usually expect to pay less than what a vendor wants for a frag if I'm buying from a hobbyist. It's a risk you take for a discounted price. I honestly don't think there is a solution to this problem. I agree with one thing Benny Z said, corals grow. That makes it very hard to keep any sane type of list of who has what. That's why I lean more towards LC's opinion that if it looks like coral XYZ and someone bought it as XYZ then it probably is XYZ.
kingator
Valuable Member
true indeed ...but it not always the hobbyist... we also have some vendors (not putting none on blast) that actually know the piece isnt correct lineage, but since they have a decent reputation they will sell it to a noobie . ive seen it happen over and over . When called on it , it becomes a issue and by no means im talking about that shrimp situation ,just in general.so my advise is to do your research on the corals you choose to purchase .......vendor or hobbyist 70% are in it for the almighty dollar,which i dont mind at all as i have only high end pieces and dont mind paying ....just has to be legit.....
Mallard
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I think this is fair for a large majority of the market. However, there are a smaller group who are true collectors. They want a specific piece and would like assurances it's that piece. In addition to that, there are other attributes that contribute to the price of a particular commodity. Each vendor/hobbyist has the ability to add additional value through various means.
RichieT
Valuable Member
I agree with that. There are the pure collectors that will pay premium for buying directly from the original vendor. That's where the SC Dynamite and CB Rainbow Crush type naming system comes into play. You are calling out specific vendors and expect what you purchase to be from the original colony because there is no middle man.
Mallard
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Yep exactly. So while there is a large group of people who just want nice corals and don't want to pay premium prices. There are a small minority who do, which is why lineage is important to some people. There are those that have that collectors mentality **cough** I'm one of them **cough** and others don't.
TrialandError
Well-Known Member
All you silly gooses make me LOL. You pay ridiculous prices for amazing looking corals then cry wolf when you think you've been wronged. Do your homework before you make a purchase. If you buy a mega money coral be prepared for it to not be the right coral. It happens that's why it's called life. If you don't want to be wronged don't buy something so expensive. :drum:
RichieT
Valuable Member
My wallet and I feel your pain. I too am one of the afflicted
lps1212
5000 Club Member
+1 I've been hearing that some other fake high end sps pieces have been sold also I'm not big into sps atleast not yet :xd: but it's what I hear from very credible sources something jawdropper acro I believe
