What's Your Opinion?

[redfishbluefish]

Why are we so highly opinionated in our beliefs about this hobby. It seems like you can't mention your likes without someone vehemently disagreeing with you, and ready to take your head off. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like this past month or so I've seen strong debates about the following subjects:

LIGHTS - LED's versus T5's / Metal Halides
CHINA - If it's made in China, it's cheap
POWERHEADS - Gyre versus the rest of the world
SALTS - Mine is better than yours
AND MORE......


AND, do you put any weight into the believability of the responses because of who the poster might be (please, no specific names)?

Please only respond to why we are so strongly opinionated. If this thread turns into a debate about specifics of the above subjects, or specific members, I'm asking the [HASHTAG]#Mods[/HASHTAG] to shut it down immediately and move it out. Let's keep it civil!

 

[Busa1340]

I'm new to the forums and I find myself getting different views and opinions on a lot of questions I ask. So I just stick to what I know and have used in the past.

 

[cb684]

Ok, I will bite...
I just posted a couple of days ago something on the same lines. I was wondering how opinions become believes, and are pushed as possible trues, even comparable to scientific evidences...
A quick google search on "why anecdotes are not comparable to scientific knowledge?" or "science vs pseudo-science", would quickly get people to question their preferences, and thus not be so passionate about them.

 

[Diesel]

Great thread.
IMO, I know a lot but not everything and all opinions have a value.
If someone has a better opinion than we can only learn from that.
The debates that sometimes are appearing about good or bad, right or wrong add only value if it stays positive.

 

[reefwiser]

Paul, people have different views and experiences. Someone cares about certain features or parameters and has found it important to watch for that in their past experience. I try everything at least a few times and might then try it again a couple of years later. Its three strikes and your out for me. LED's I just started playing with used MH and T5 for years. So the jury is still out but in the long run LED will win by default I am afraid so I decided this year to learn how to use them. In aquarium forums we all have different experience levels and I have found that every tank can be different in how it reacts in chemistry biology and equipment. What works on one tank might not work on another tank. While we try to nail down what is needed to keep corals and fish happy there is always someone doing the complete opposite having great success. So there is never a 100% correct answer for what works.

 

[cb684]

And then, there is that: http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-it-s-not-your-opinion-you-re-just-wrong-updated-7611752

 

[Duke4Life]

I get on these forums partially due to the varied opinions. Now if there are certain fish I'm looking at, there are a few whose opinions hold some weight due to their knowledge and experience. As someone who doesn't like to stay thinking within the box, I enjoy the varied responses.

 

[BigKid4788]

I think people have an opinion on everything. If they then have success with something they tried it becomes their belief. I believe you can find some value in everyone's belief. It may not be something you pursue but it always helps to have a different viewpoint. My $.02

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I love the fact that this hobby can be done successfully in so many different ways. The problem (IMO) is when people get dogmatic about opinions and decide that there is only their way to correctly do the hobby. Skimmers and skimmerless, dsb and barebottom, water changes vs. no water changes, LED vs. MH or T5, ulns vs. "dirty" systems, and the list goes on of seemingly opposite yet successful approaches to reef keeping. As @reefwiser said, you can be totally gung ho about a particular way of reefing, and find examples of others who are doing it a totally opposite way and having great success. So, my take is that you should develop your own reefing philosophy, but hold it with humility recognizing that someone may have a totally different way of achieving success...

NOW...the other point that I don't think gets stated often enough is that when you adopt "your way" of doing things, be sure you know WHY you are doing it that way before you start proclaiming that philosophy. It's fine to get involved in friendly debates, but IME the most adamant proponents of a particular "right way" to do reefing (or a particular aspect of it) are usually people who haven't been in long enough to have legit experience and know why they are doing things a certain way. I also think that before we write someone off as "wrong" it's good to ask them why they do things the way they do...you just might learn some cool stuff that shows that their way isn't "wrong"--it's just different than yours.

Finally, if you're "living on the edge" in some particular way and doing things in an unconventional manner, it's usually good to inform others who ask you about what you're doing that your way of reefing isn't necessarily where most people are finding success. For example, there may be plenty of reef tanks that are run without ______ (fill in the blank with some widely accepted aspect of reef maintenance that successful reefers have been using for years), and KUDOS to those who are pulling that off successfully, but be sure that if you teach someone not to do __________, be sure they know WHY you don't do that, WHAT you are doing to achieve the function accomplished by _______ and THAT many, many people run successful reef tanks by doing ________ as part of their system for reefing, so to say that this is the WRONG way to do reefing actually hurts the argument for your system.

 

[cb684]

Finally, if you're "living on the edge" in some particular way and doing things in an unconventional manner, it's usually good to inform others who ask you about what you're doing that your way of reefing isn't necessarily where most people are finding success. For example, there may be plenty of reef tanks that are run without ______ (fill in the blank with some widely accepted aspect of reef maintenance that successful reefers have been using for years), and KUDOS to those who are pulling that off successfully, but be sure that if you teach someone not to do __________, be sure they know WHY you don't do that, WHAT you are doing to achieve the function accomplished by _______ and THAT many, many people run successful reef tanks by doing ________ as part of their system for reefing, so to say that this is the WRONG way to do reefing actually hurts the argument for your system.

Exactly. I think when one is "living on the edge", sharing that as a viable option even without understanding why it is working to begin with, can be irresponsible.

 

[twilliard]

This is why I get hesitant on writing articles.
I don't write them because I "think" it works, I write them because I know it works.
But still will find people that disagree or push to say I am wrong.
I have learned from the great people of r2r to leave it be.
H2o2 coming up!

 

[143MPCo]

Well said Daniel!!

My views...

So what is an "opinion"; a view or a judgment formed about something not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

So what are experience; well it is knowledge or mastery of an event or subject gain through involvement in or exposure to it. Terms in philosophy, such as "empirical knowledge" or "a posterior knowledge" are used to refer to knowledge based on experience.

I personally feel that we a lot of times get both confused when it comes to sharing our personal opinion and personal experiences about subject matters within the reefing world. That's not to say that we're wrong in what we're trying to convey it's just that we don't show a correct distinction between the two and verbalize them in a way that makes a distinction between an opinion or an experience but, what's worse is that we get defensive when we're questioned on the validity of the experience or our opinion and we don't seem to be able to argue in a constructive manner why we say what we think. We take things as a personal attack and maybe sometimes we shouldn't maybe someone just wants to understand our views on the subject a little bit better, maybe we just need to step back and try to understand it from their side. In either case I think we just need to relax and stop taking things so darn seriously, it is a hobby after all!

 

[twilliard]

Well said Daniel!!

My views...

So what is an "opinion"; a view or a judgment formed about something not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

So what are experience; well it is knowledge or mastery of an event or subject gain through involvement in or exposure to it. Terms in philosophy, such as "empirical knowledge" or "a posterior knowledge" are used to refer to knowledge based on experience.

I personally feel that we alot of times get both confused when it comes to sharing our personal opinion and personal experiences about subject matters within the reefing world. That's not to say that we're wrong in what we're trying to convey it's just that we don't show a correct distinction between the two and verbalize them in a way that makes a distinction between an opinion or an experience but, what's worse is that we get defensive when were questioned on the validity of the experience or our opinion and we don't seem to be able to argue in a constructive manner why we say what we think. We take things as a personal attack and maybe sometimes we shouldn't maybe someone just wants to understand our views on the subject a little bit better, maybe we just need to step back and try to understand it from their side. In either case I think we just need to relax and stop taking things so darn seriously, it is a hobby after all!

You hit the nail on the head
Verbalizing is my weak point now I get them proofread!

 

[Pete polyp]

Some people have just hung around that other forum too long where you have to have scientific facts to back up every comment you make. I like the fact that differences in opinion open a channel for discovery on ways or things that could be beneficial to our hobby. I'm not exactly sure why some of these opinions are being bashed and what could be an informative debate becomes a middle school fight behind the playground. We aren't all going to agree about what's the best approach at keeping a reef tank because every single tank is unique. What works for Bob may not work for George. And what works for Paul b probably won't work for anyone else (sorry couldn't resist). But that's not saying that Paul b is doing anything wrong because this is what is working for him, and has been for longer than most of the members on this forum have been alive. Saying ______ is my opinion is completely different than saying ______ is necessary to keep a reef tank. I think people get confused between the two and jump at the chance to prove someone wrong because their opinion is different. It's not limited to this hobby or this forum, but has become the normal in society. It's really sad it's become to that because it's limiting free thinking and people making breakthroughs. I can't count the number of times I have had thoughts occur to me about reef keeping and have kept them to myself because of the fear of being flamed for those thoughts. Popular beliefs at the time (or current trends) would be the complete opposite of my thoughts on the subject so there would be plenty of closed minded people wanting to disprove my thoughts, so why bother?

 

[DeniseAndy]

I like all the responses so far. One other thing we cannot express enough is the ability to interpret text. I think we cannot always read intent and we use our personal experiences or moods to determine the meaning behind a comment. Not being able to read the body language and hear the cadence in a voice causes us to only be able to use our own experiences to decipher intent. Plus, we are all so passionate in our love of this hobby. This is a positive.

 

[brandon429]

It's all results based. Whatever gets results is valid now and peer reviewed research isn't required for results. If fifteen thousand web posters get results using something a formal peer review would challenge, the perspective of the review is inert. people just want coral and living systems.


so that's permanently skewed things into a mix of anecdote and science

all this battle we do is the pure evolution of reefing at ten times the speed the formal reviews can churn out, you just have to sift through much to find patterns. Patterns make the music

 

[TheEngineer]

This is a fun topic! As a generally opinionated person, I try and reflect my opinions as such. When I'm stating something factual I tend to be more rigid in my verbiage. I consider myself open to every opinion but I strongly disagree with people who make factual statements based simply on experience

 

[twilliard]

This is a fun topic! As a generally opinionated person, I try and reflect my opinions as such. When I'm stating something factual I tend to be more rigid in my verbiage. I consider myself open to every opinion but I strongly disagree with people who make factual statements based simply on experience

Interesting.
Doesnt experience (not going to college or having a PhD) support factual statements?
In my instance. I have spent 20 years in heavy electrical construction.
During the same time, only having licenses to be an electrician counts me out from years of study of marine pests?
I knew I should have been a marine biologist!
Naa I loved what I did!

 

[TheEngineer]

Interesting.
Doesnt experience (not going to college or having a PhD) support factual statements?
In my instance. I have spent 20 years in heavy electrical construction.
During the same time, only having licenses to be an electrician counts me out from years of study of marine pests?
I knew I should have been a marine biologist!
Naa I loved what I did!

Haha. I was referring to a different kind of experience. The reckless kind, like "I've never gotten electrocuted using a blow dryer while taking a shower, so it is impossible to get electrocuted that way."

 

[twilliard]

Haha. I was referring to a different kind of experience. The reckless kind, like "I've never gotten electrocuted using a blow dryer while taking a shower, so it is impossible to get electrocuted that way."

Love it! That was awesome!