Where in the chain does the responsibility lie?

[Charley]

Had tangs on my mind and was thinking of the tang police, then got to thinking: where does the "responsibility" lie in the hobby in terms of the welfare of our fish?

Does it begin with the people pulling fish out of the oceans?
The handlers of the fish at point of origin?
The transporters?
The wholesalers?
The LFS?
The Hobbyist?

Why the hobbyist? anything we bring home is lightyears better than a LFS at that point.... usually.

In terms of scale, it is so miniscule the loss of a few fish in our hobby compared to the ravages and savagery of commercial fishing. Because our fish looks prettier than a herring we feel entitled to give it more weight than the life of our precious little tropical fish? Pretty arrogant of our hobby if you ask me.

For anyone who complains that a fellow hobbyist does not treat a fish as "well" or needs a bigger tank, etc., , do such people recycle so perfectly that none of their plastic enters the ocean and gets swallowed by big magnificent sea creatures?

The hypocrisy and arrogance of it all.

Just thoughts, no one complained to me about anything...all good, just conversation.

 

[Waters]

As a hobbyist I can only control what I can control...which is how my livestock is treated

 

[jaxredsoxfan]

Well said Waters....

 

[cancun]

I totally agree and think about this often. I don't judge anyone in this hobby. I can only control what I do with my tank and how I take care of my aquatic animals in it. I think some specimens need to be left in the ocean, and I can do my part by not purchasing those specimens. Also I feel like I don't part by not frequenting LFS in my area that have poor husbandry etc. Now that leaves me with one excellent LFS, so when I want something it takes a bit longer for me to get it. The one major thing this hobby has taught me was patience! LOL! Great discussion by the way, and valid points! [emoji16]

 

[saltyhog]

Had tangs on my mind and was thinking of the tang police, then got to thinking: where does the "responsibility" lie in the hobby in terms of the welfare of our fish?

Does it begin with the people pulling fish out of the oceans?
The handlers of the fish at point of origin?
The transporters?
The wholesalers?
The LFS?
The Hobbyist?

Why the hobbyist? anything we bring home is lightyears better than a LFS at that point.... usually.

All of the above I would say. However, as better said above we can only control what we do. I don't think just because our tank is bigger or cleaner than the LFS means it's ok to be irresponsible. The LFS is a temporary home....hopefully our tank is home for many years!

 

[Antics]

Ultimately it's a hobby. Treat it with respect and give it the time and effort it needs. If you're doing that you shouldn't fear any confrontation with regard to your husbandry.

I'm adverse to telling people how to care for their aquarium. If you ask I'm willing to give my opinion, but anyone who enters a thread and starts volunteering complaints on stocking level of tank size is asking for conflict in my opinion. A cage is a cage regardless of size.

Extremes exempt of course.

 

[bluprntguy]

I think there is a little difference between killing a fish for food/substance and putting a fish in a glass box that's not large enough for it just for your pleasure.

I would agree that we should treat all fish with a little more respect, whether we are harvesting them for food or to put in our aquariums.

 

[BeejReef]

Well, I guess there is no "responsibility" for the fish' well-being when you look at it that holistically.
No one is acting unethically when the catch, wholesale, distribute, and feed me a lobster.
I suppose it would be perfectly fine to go into a fish store and buy an animal to eat.

In my mind, it falls upon the hobbyist to regard the fish as pets. Once done, you can have righteous indignation at an LFS or distributor that treats pets inhumanely, akin to the fury over puppy mills. That's hard to do if you take a "win some, lose some" approach to fish or coral keeping.

It's incredibly abstract though. You really have to be a shopping sack re-using, skateboard commuting, card-carrying vegan to throw stones from the high ground on this topic. There are more and more of them though..

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Responsibility falls on everyone that you named, especially the hobbyist. If tomorrow we all decided to stop buying damsels, guess what will not be collected any longer? Beyond this, we are all doing this for pleasure, very few are relying on reefing for livelihood/survival.

What really irks me is when someone decides to be a 'trail blazer' by testing the limits of what a fish can handle. Recently I responded to a post where someone had a yellow tang in a 20 or 30 gallon tank, and he knew what recommendations for this fish are before he purchased it. I am not the tang police, but this is so far past the grey area that I had to comment on it. From what I recall his only response was that it has survived for two years, so it must be a suitable home. That is like saying a prison cell is a suitable home for humans because we can survive in small confined spaces indefinitely.

 

[Sako338]

I try to buy ORA captive breed (for better or worse)fish if I can, not all my fish or inverts are ORA though. I have thought about this topic myself.

 

[Lateral72]

The real answer is.... Somewhere in the middle.

There are certain fish that really should never be taken out of the ocean unless special ordered, such as Barracuda and Pilot Jacks as a couple examples off the top of my head.

There are also fish that really should be limited in quantity, and not every joe-blow aquarist should be trying to keep, such as Ventralis Anthias, Tuka Anthias, Vlamingi Tangs, Chaoti Wrasses, etc.. Too many people that have kept a pair of clowns in a 29g for a year think they're now an expert and ready for a difficult/expensive fish, or think they can always re-home that cute 2" Vlamingi when it gets too big for their 55g.

There's also a ton of people that will convince themselves to ignore the 10 people saying not to buy XYZ fish, and listen to the 1-2 people that confirm that they should buy it, and it's completely fine. There's also a ton of people that give out horrible info and recommendations, based on anecdotal information and very small sample size. "Yea, I've got a Sunburst Anthias in my 25g, they're the perfect fish!" Both of these things happen ALL the time here on R2R, and it's a vicious cycle.

I cannot blame LFS too much for ordering/stocking fish that are bound to die. As a lot of the time, these "oddball, hard to keep fish" are often shipped as substitutes or under vague descriptions, such as "Misc Anthias or Misc Wrasse". HOWEVER, what I can blame LFS for is a straight-up lack of willingness to educate the hobbyist, or straight up lying to make a sale. Hang out at any LFS and you'll find them selling blue tangs to people with 55g tanks all the time, or telling joe blow that this Queen Angelfish is perfect for his Red Sea 550.

In terms of scale, it is so miniscule the loss of a few fish in our hobby compared to the ravages and savagery of commercial fishing. Because our fish looks prettier than a herring we feel entitled to give it more weight than the life of our precious little tropical fish? Pretty arrogant of our hobby if you ask me.

You're not considering the difference in magnitude between the quadrillions of herring that inhabit our oceans, and a rare reef fish which might only be found at one tiny 2sq mile island in the middle of the Pacific.

 

[Marco S]

My question is, who are the people making the rules, (these so called experts) that say you can take a fish that comes from an ocean that spans millions of square miles and contains more water than is in every combined aquarium on the planet and "they" tell us that a 6' tank with 250 gallons is the minimum required to keep them, "Happily". Seriously??? It's more likely that someone in marketing or sales crunched the numbers and came to the conclusion that the average hobbyist would be more likely to fork over a few thousand to several thousands for a 6 foot 250 gallon or even a 10 foot 400 gallon tank, than the hundreds of thousands to millions it would take to actually create a tank big enough to keep them "happily" I may be wrong, but I doubt that an actual Marine Biologist that really cares about the fish would ever recommend taking a fish from any ocean and putting it in a 6 foot tank.

All that aside...I do have a few Tangs in a 6 foot 200 gallon tank, but when people get specific on me and tell me that my Achilles or Hippo should really be in a 250 or 280 gallon instead, I have to laugh a little inside. I get not putting a 12" fish in a three foot tank, but is an extra coupe inches going to make a difference...really?

 

[Halal Hotdog]

My question is, who are the people making the rules, (these so called experts) that say you can take a fish that comes from an ocean that spans millions of square miles and contains more water than is in every combined aquarium on the planet and "they" tell us that a 6' tank with 250 gallons is the minimum required to keep them, "Happily". Seriously??? It's more likely that someone in marketing or sales crunched the numbers and came to the conclusion that the average hobbyist would be more likely to fork over a few thousand to several thousands for a 6 foot 250 gallon or even a 10 foot 400 gallon tank, than the hundreds of thousands to millions it would take to actually create a tank big enough to keep them "happily" I may be wrong, but I doubt that an actual Marine Biologist that really cares about the fish would ever recommend taking a fish from any ocean and putting it in a 6 foot tank.

All that aside...I do have a few Tangs in a 6 foot 200 gallon tank, but when people get specific on me and tell me that my Achilles or Hippo should really be in a 250 or 280 gallon instead, I have to laugh a little inside. I get not putting a 12" fish in a three foot tank, but is an extra coupe inches going to make a difference...really?

There are some objective markers that can be observed. I have seen a tang in a tiny tank express signs of GI distress (stringy feces without parasites) and have constant stress pigmentation. Depending on species, aggression towards everything. How quickly and frequently are they lapping the tank? Shape of their fins gives you an idea of they are an open water swimmer. Are they breeding? Many people have larger fish in larger tanks express breeding behavior. Adult clown trigger on YouTube in a 75 gallon tank killed all inhabitants and every few seconds goes from one side of the tank to the other. That is not a happy fish. I do agree with you the gallon indicator is not perfect because dimensions can vary quite a bit. Dimension recommendations are important and have been determined by trial and error.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I think we're each responsible for the animals in our care at whatever point of the process that may be.

 

[vetteguy53081]

The entire chain, but it starts with the collectors/divers. Once sent to wholesalers, it is their responsibility. Once it leaves to the next distributor or store, you get the idea. I had a full line pet store and had to deal with all including transhippers.

 

[Charley]

Always find it amusing that anyone would make comments in regards to keeping fish in a particular size based on their own whatever's. The scale of the being annoyed by a person who says a fish is needed to life in a certain size tank or you're a "baddish" person is laughable. Who knows anyways?

If you confined me to a single room or 2, not allowed outside, but pumped in some good extra oxygen and fed me rib steaks, I might be very happy. Move me to a space with 6 rooms, no extra oxygen, no air conditioning and fed me spam all day long, I am not feeling so good. Send in some random people to live with me and I could be toast, who knows? What other tankmates are with the the bigger fish? Could be more tortured than the smaller space.

If one wants to make a real difference, spare a lecture and write to your congressman to end commercial fishing that traps kills dolphins, kills unnecessary amount of sharks, etc and not disrupt ecosystems doing way, way , way more harm than a doomed fish already at a LFS with a perceived sub par living condition. The fish might have been lunch soon anyway with the locals back home. Who is to say?

Just discussion, not upset, no suggestions made to me.

 

[Jesterrace]

Had tangs on my mind and was thinking of the tang police, then got to thinking: where does the "responsibility" lie in the hobby in terms of the welfare of our fish?

Does it begin with the people pulling fish out of the oceans?
The handlers of the fish at point of origin?
The transporters?
The wholesalers?
The LFS?
The Hobbyist?

Why the hobbyist? anything we bring home is lightyears better than a LFS at that point.... usually.

In terms of scale, it is so miniscule the loss of a few fish in our hobby compared to the ravages and savagery of commercial fishing. Because our fish looks prettier than a herring we feel entitled to give it more weight than the life of our precious little tropical fish? Pretty arrogant of our hobby if you ask me.

For anyone who complains that a fellow hobbyist does not treat a fish as "well" or needs a bigger tank, etc., , do such people recycle so perfectly that none of their plastic enters the ocean and gets swallowed by big magnificent sea creatures?

The hypocrisy and arrogance of it all.

Just thoughts, no one complained to me about anything...all good, just conversation.

For me it's the intent. Yes, to an extent we probably should be leaving the fish in the ocean if we are being 100% "high and mighty" about things. That said, if we are going to keep them shouldn't we offer them the best environment we can? To me I don't care for the term "Tang Police" or "Fish Police" IMHO you either follow recommended fish care practices or you don't. I recognize some folks can get ridiculous or fanatical about it, but on the flipside I have also seen idiots telling a newbie that a 22 gallon hex is a suitable home for a Yellow Tang. When pressed further they then admit that they buy the fish as small as possible and rehome it after a year, but of course they don't bother to tell the newbie that until pressed for an answer. IMHO this is worse then telling someone they can't have a fish because it will outgrow their tank. At least the folks telling a given person no are giving them sound long term advice. I'm just not a fan of rehoming (barring someone who upgrades to a larger tank) when a person buys the fish with the intent of getting rid of it when it outgrows the tank. To each their own though.

 

[lion king]

I agree with @Jesterrace about intent, but I am a realist, there is just not enough adequate tanks out there for all the fish. I believe it all starts at the source, and too many people do put it on the end hobbyists. If it were up to me I shut most of it down, make it very expensive, and have high standards at every point. Meaning some species could not be collected at all, some very minimally. Very, very minimal losses at each point or they are shut down. I have seen buckets and buckets of dead fish; week after week; with no regard. Shut them down.

i have no problem with rehoming fish, because again, I'm a realist. I have rehomed dozens of fish to very good homes of where they lived out lives for decades. A very high sickening percentage of fish die very quickly. If I can provide a temporary home for a few years then send them to a forever home then I feel very good about that, but you have to have the resources to rehome before you begin.

 

[Silver14SS]

As a hobbyist I can only control what I can control...which is how my livestock is treated

Agree completely, for this tank I made the choice to go all captive bred. Mostly so I don't introduce anything unwanted to the tank, partly to support the vendors participating in aquaculture, and a very tiny bit because I'd like to think the animals are treated better along the way than wild caught.

To each their own

 

[Lateral72]

My question is, who are the people making the rules, (these so called experts) that say you can take a fish that comes from an ocean that spans millions of square miles and contains more water than is in every combined aquarium on the planet and "they" tell us that a 6' tank with 250 gallons is the minimum required to keep them, "Happily". Seriously??? It's more likely that someone in marketing or sales crunched the numbers and came to the conclusion that the average hobbyist would be more likely to fork over a few thousand to several thousands for a 6 foot 250 gallon or even a 10 foot 400 gallon tank, than the hundreds of thousands to millions it would take to actually create a tank big enough to keep them "happily" I may be wrong, but I doubt that an actual Marine Biologist that really cares about the fish would ever recommend taking a fish from any ocean and putting it in a 6 foot tank.

All that aside...I do have a few Tangs in a 6 foot 200 gallon tank, but when people get specific on me and tell me that my Achilles or Hippo should really be in a 250 or 280 gallon instead, I have to laugh a little inside. I get not putting a 12" fish in a three foot tank, but is an extra coupe inches going to make a difference...really?

Generally speaking, the people that set these "Rules" are people who have years/decades of experience, and can tell the differences between a fish that is stressed, a fish that is not stressed but isn't necessarily "happy", and a fish that is flourishing.

Remember... Surviving ≠ Thriving

If you confined me to a single room or 2, not allowed outside, but pumped in some good extra oxygen and fed me rib steaks, I might be very happy. Move me to a space with 6 rooms, no extra oxygen, no air conditioning and fed me spam all day long, I am not feeling so good. Send in some random people to live with me and I could be toast, who knows? What other tankmates are with the the bigger fish? Could be more tortured than the smaller space.

An apples to apples comparison, would you rather live your life in a walk-in closet, or live your life in a bedroom or two's worth of space, eating the exact same thing in either scenario with equal A/C and equal air quality.

Your comparison is a fallacy as you bring up poor husbandry to justify your thought that cramped tanks are fine. This isn't really what anyone is talking about. Of course poor husbandry is worse than cramped conditions. But with husbandry being equal, the choice between a small tank or larger tank is obvious.

Also, if we're on about husbandry, a small tank with overcrowded or cramped inhabitants usually will have poorer water conditions.