Where in the chain does the responsibility lie?

[Stigigemla]

It is not so much the size of the fish that is the question but how it lives.
When I moved my tangs (Yellow, kole and purple) from my six feet to my new 10 feet tank I promised myself never ever have tangs in such a small tank again. So big where their change of behavour.
I think a foxface will do better in a 6 feet tank even though it gets bigger. A muray of 2 feet or a 12 inch lionfish I wouldnt hesitate to put in a 6 feet tank if it has a big enough skimmer.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Call me odd, but I think making the comparison of fish to people in living conditions isn't a particularly helpful analogy in most cases. I don't think fish experience life the same way that people do, and determining "happiness" of a fish versus the happiness of a person is vastly different. I don't think we're at all comparing apples to apples in those scenarios. Now, I do believe we have an ethical responsibility to care well for the animals we are keeping. However, IMO the comparison of a tank to any sized home or closet only ultimately serves to either guilt or exonerate the people in question. It really isn't the way we should think about aquarium sizes...again that's my opinion.

 

[Charley]

Call me odd, but I think making the comparison of fish to people in living conditions isn't a particularly helpful analogy in most cases. I don't think fish experience life the same way that people do, and determining "happiness" of a fish versus the happiness of a person is vastly different. I don't think we're at all comparing apples to apples in those scenarios. Now, I do believe we have an ethical responsibility to care well for the animals we are keeping. However, IMO the comparison of a tank to any sized home or closet only ultimately serves to either guilt or exonerate the people in question. It really isn't the way we should think about aquarium sizes...again that's my opinion.

Good point of course...

I think people suggesting how fish should be kept would better served to spend the same time and write to the powers in charge of things on a larger more meaningful scale. It's like..... should we watch what all fisherman put in their buckets? Are THOSE fish any less worthy? Are they all fairly treated? Are they all eaten? Why, because less pretty? No interest? The few fish that get "mistreated" in our hobby is pittens.....

 

[Sump Crab]

I dont think we can draw comparisons between pet fish and food fish just as we dont usually look at dogs and cows or parrots and chickens in the same way.

 

[Sump Crab]

Regarding the "chain of responsibility", the consumer ultimately drives demand.

 

[Charley]

I dont think we can draw comparisons between pet fish and food fish just as we dont usually look at dogs and cows or parrots and chickens in the same way.

Respectfully, I think we can. For example: we fish for blackfish or sea bass as a food fish. We simply do not keep in a tank...too big, less pretty, water too cold. But why wouldn't they warrant the same consideration? I think they are very interesting territorial rock dwellers. Not any different than alot of the hobby fish. on the flip side, alot of the fish we keep as pets are fish food on some of the islands.

To me, this i a big prob with the hobby, our arrogance to pick and chose and play high and mighty. As a result, I can see new and struggling hobbyists being turned off to the hobby. Those fish we toss in a bucket when fishing are NO different than our reef fish, it is only our perception. So why do we waste our breath to give advice as if looking down on a fellow hobbyist because maybe a fish here and there are placed in someones mind in a smaller tank. I say, go after commercial fishing,etc and make a real difference. We all have enough issues with balancing alkalinity, calcium, magnesium and battling algae for starters!

 

[Charley]

Regarding the "chain of responsibility", the consumer ultimately drives demand.

Good point but I think demand is different than wholesalers properly educating retailers and retailers educating consumers to make much better choices. Which usually equates to more expensive choices because the better technology has the best chance to give a fish its best shot at happiness.

I think sometimes the responsibility is higher up the chain. Now I know people will jump up and say so do your research. Really? Maybe one should go bowling, play golf, etc and have some fun. Not to mention the research is mindblowingly confusing in every direction. I think most people want to put fish in a tank without turning into a research scientist looking at a mind field of info.

 

[Lateral72]

To say we shouldn't concern ourselves with the well-being/husbandry of the fish that we keep, because there are other fish that end up as food, bycatch and straight up wanton waste, as a result of harvesting for food/product/etc, is a short-sighted deflection at best.

It's no different than saying China's pollution is worse than ours, so we shouldn't worry and we should just burn dirty coal and dump our used motor oil down the storm drain.

Why can't we worry about the things we HAVE control over, such as mis-stocking our aquariums? Or better yet... Why can't we worry about both things?

 

[Marco S]

Now I know people will jump up and say so do your research. Really? Maybe one should go bowling, play golf, etc and have some fun. Not to mention the research is mindblowingly confusing in every direction. I think most people want to put fish in a tank without turning into a research scientist looking at a mind field of info.

Ultimately it is us that is responsible for taking care of our pets. Regardless of what the pet is. Hopefully you wouldn't buy a dog, cat or bird without doing research on what and how much they eat, how much exercise they need, how large a space they need etc...why are fish any different?

if you are not willing to do the research and provide your pet with what is required for them to live a long and healthy life, then you do not deserve to have that pet!

 

[Sump Crab]

Respectfully, I think we can. For example: we fish for blackfish or sea bass as a food fish. We simply do not keep in a tank...too big, less pretty, water too cold. But why wouldn't they warrant the same consideration? I think they are very interesting territorial rock dwellers. Not any different than alot of the hobby fish. on the flip side, alot of the fish we keep as pets are fish food on some of the islands.

To me, this i a big prob with the hobby, our arrogance to pick and chose and play high and mighty. As a result, I can see new and struggling hobbyists being turned off to the hobby. Those fish we toss in a bucket when fishing are NO different than our reef fish, it is only our perception. So why do we waste our breath to give advice as if looking down on a fellow hobbyist because maybe a fish here and there are placed in someones mind in a smaller tank. I say, go after commercial fishing,etc and make a real difference. We all have enough issues with balancing alkalinity, calcium, magnesium and battling algae for starters!

Agree to disagree. Although the difference between the animals in question may only be a made up human designation (ultimately what isn't?) you cannot legally or even morally directly compare food vs pets. If you do then we are going down a PETA lane that would see our hobby and all fishing (commercial and recreational) banned.

In the end we should all strive to provide the best home we can for our pets, even if the catfish in the lake out back are on our dinner plate.

 

[Sump Crab]

Good point but I think demand is different than wholesalers properly educating retailers and retailers educating consumers to make much better choices. Which usually equates to more expensive choices because the better technology has the best chance to give a fish its best shot at happiness.

I think sometimes the responsibility is higher up the chain. Now I know people will jump up and say so do your research. Really? Maybe one should go bowling, play golf, etc and have some fun. Not to mention the research is mindblowingly confusing in every direction. I think most people want to put fish in a tank without turning into a research scientist looking at a mind field of info.

I think it would be difficult to make a compelling argument that it is not demand that drives collection practices.

I agree that retailers should do their best to educate customers to make the best choices but ultimately a sale is what keeps the doors open.

Besides we live in an age with more information and resources at our fingertips than ever before. Doing the research on a particular fishes requirements is as simple as a google search on your phone while looking at the fish in the store. No degree in biology needed to accomplish that.

 

[Charley]

@Lateral72 - my wife would totally agree that I am pretty good at short sight deflections! Oh well, you prob nailed that one!

Not suggesting to go the path of PETA and not suggesting to practice poor husbandry. For myself, I keep proper sized fish in my tank and go as far to have peaceful co inhabitants for a stress free environment as much as possible. One false move though such as adding one more blennie and I could be toast.

Do not enjoy the hobby when I see someone "reprimand" someone for the occasional fish/tank size mistake. A super huge turn off in a difficult, all too tempting, quite expensive hobby. Simply suggest point fire where your fire will have the most impact. To me the most impact is not wasting words on the end consumer, not enough bang for your buck to make a difference. that's why I pose the question: where does the responsibility lie?

If one put a tang underneath a bunch of flounder in a bucket on a fishing pier recently caught, who would know the difference...no one.

If someone walks in a LFS and sees a small sailfish tang in a 10 gal tank who can blame them buying one and put them into a 29 gal biocube as an impulse buy. That person prob thinks they're giving that sailfin a slice of heaven!

At the very least LFS should sell these fish out of appropriately sized tanks to at least give the suggestion they belong in a bigger tank.

Then there is always the "do your research" crutch. I get it, I do it, but it irks me:

BEFORE one jumps in:

How many species of fish should one research?
How much chemistry should one study?
How much should I know about lighting before jumping in?
Flow? oh that too!
Oh man, water changes every week? Conflicting info now, maybe we can balance chemistry water maybe without water changes? How much research research here before jumping in?
Corals? bummer....they attack each other too? ok, another 400,000 species to research, sigh
and size of fish and it relates to tank size
and which ones can coexist?
and everything I read is conflicting
shoot, have to separate the real science for the anecdotal evidence too.
and some people " advise all too seriously" how people take care of things on forums.....sigh
plus I missed the other 12,000 things one should ponder, ooops I mean research, before jumping in

After 20 yrs of research only, then maybe one should jump in? Need a timeline here, pls

Then, one joins a club as a good suggestion and hears on lecture called LARS. Sounds cool, excited! Oops, ( Lazy A** reefer syndrome) now one is being called a lazy a** reefer because one does not thoroughly clean the plumbing thoroughly occassionally causing another set of unsuspecting badness all because of negligence? another 500 bucks to clean the plumbing I guess.

What's next......"why you're a loser reefer" lecture?

Geesh, there is enough to deal with in life. But I have turned into a research scientist, to one day become a coral fragging budding entrepeneur, in the meanwhile occasionally getting lectured I suck as a hobbyist in a variety of formats!

To me, it starts at the top of the chain, then should filter down reasonably to a consumer friendly, set you up for successful outcome, not as a a setting you up for failure with unrealistic expectations.

 

[FishDoc]

Had tangs on my mind and was thinking of the tang police, then got to thinking: where does the "responsibility" lie in the hobby in terms of the welfare of our fish?

Does it begin with the people pulling fish out of the oceans?
The handlers of the fish at point of origin?
The transporters?
The wholesalers?
The LFS?
The Hobbyist?

Why the hobbyist? anything we bring home is lightyears better than a LFS at that point.... usually.

In terms of scale, it is so miniscule the loss of a few fish in our hobby compared to the ravages and savagery of commercial fishing. Because our fish looks prettier than a herring we feel entitled to give it more weight than the life of our precious little tropical fish? Pretty arrogant of our hobby if you ask me.

For anyone who complains that a fellow hobbyist does not treat a fish as "well" or needs a bigger tank, etc., , do such people recycle so perfectly that none of their plastic enters the ocean and gets swallowed by big magnificent sea creatures?

The hypocrisy and arrogance of it all.

Just thoughts, no one complained to me about anything...all good, just conversation.

My opinion was likely already echoed but I’ll share regardless, just in case I a strong believer in the consumer driving the market. If you go to the LFS and decide to “rescue” a fish that you don’t have the ability to properly care for than you’re the one perpetuating the issue. If you weren’t to buy it, the LFS would likely stop stocking it (assuming the have control over what’s shipped), then the wholesaler would request less of a supply which would end in the collector opting to collect something else. Problem solved.

 

[FishDoc]

I dont think we can draw comparisons between pet fish and food fish just as we dont usually look at dogs and cows or parrots and chickens in the same way.

Especially if you not a fisheries biologist. I’d be happy to field questions on the subject for those interested.

 

[Charley]

My opinion was likely already echoed but I’ll share regardless, just in case I a strong believer in the consumer driving the market. If you go to the LFS and decide to “rescue” a fish that you don’t have the ability to properly care for than you’re the one perpetuating the issue. If you weren’t to buy it, the LFS would likely stop stocking it (assuming the have control over what’s shipped), then the wholesaler would request less of a supply which would end in the collector opting to collect something else. Problem solved.

Agree on some level of course. But the prob is the person "rescuing" the fish is unwittingly perhaps not equipped to do so not even realizing they might be perpetuating a prob. .... hence, I tend to assign more responsibility higher up the chain....

 

[Charley]

Especially if you not a fisheries biologist. I’d be happy to field questions on the subject for those interested.

If you have been to China and Thailand as often as I have and seen the amount of fish tanks, fish, stunningly beautiful sea slugs, invertebrates, etc in front of restaurants for people to select from and eat, times a gazillion restaurants with fish that not even Jacque Cousteau has seen, I am going to stick with the theory that EVERY fish is a food fish and very respectfully spare the good fisheries biologist questions as to which fish qualifies as food. Just one of these restaurants with tanks filled with hundreds of fish for food is bigger than most LFS combined here in prob several states. I wish was exaggerating.......

 

[Sump Crab]

If you have been to China and Thailand as often as I have and seen the amount of fish tanks, fish, stunningly beautiful sea slugs, invertebrates, etc in front of restaurants for people to select from and eat, times a gazillion restaurants with fish that not even Jacque Cousteau has seen, I am going to stick with the theory that EVERY fish is a food fish and very respectfully spare the good fisheries biologist questions as to which fish qualifies as food. Just one of these restaurants with tanks filled with hundreds of fish for food is bigger than most LFS combined here in prob several states. I wish was exaggerating.......

Good to hear someone is getting some fresh seafood!

Dont they eat dogs in some countries over there too? Does that mean that in this country we should start treating dogs differently?

 

[Sump Crab]

@Lateral72

Then there is always the "do your research" crutch. I get it, I do it, but it irks me:

BEFORE one jumps in:

How many species of fish should one research?
How much chemistry should one study?
How much should I know about lighting before jumping in?
Flow? oh that too!
Oh man, water changes every week? Conflicting info now, maybe we can balance chemistry water maybe without water changes? How much research research here before jumping in?
Corals? bummer....they attack each other too? ok, another 400,000 species to research, sigh
and size of fish and it relates to tank size
and which ones can coexist?
and everything I read is conflicting
shoot, have to separate the real science for the anecdotal evidence too.
and some people " advise all too seriously" how people take care of things on forums.....sigh
plus I missed the other 12,000 things one should ponder, ooops I mean research, before jumping in

After 20 yrs of research only, then maybe one should jump in? Need a timeline here, pls

I mean all someone really needs to do is look a fish up on liveaquaria to understand its basic necessities. I really think this notion of researching 400,000 fish over 20 years is one of the grossest exaggerations I've ever seen.

 

[Charley]

I mean all someone really needs to do is look a fish up on liveaquaria to understand its basic necessities. I really think this notion of researching 400,000 fish over 20 years is one of the grossest exaggerations I've ever seen.

Ok, fair enough, granted that may be a bit of an exaggeration... sort of. But I am not the one saying "DO YOUR RESEARCH" before jumping into the hobby. Is taking a quick glance on liveaquaria sufficient? Especially when a newbie is for the first time setting up a tank with all its complexities. I am guessing not for the DO YOUR RESEARCH hobbyists. I think DO YOUR RESEARCH is already a turn off, sounds elitist and quite judgmental at the outset. Not a warm and welcoming feeling for a new hobbyist. I think the DO YOUR RESEARCH people would better spend their time, with greater effect, writing to the top of the chain where there is more impact. Picking off hobbyists one by one is so useless to saving fish on the grand scale of things it's silly. Not suggesting that we promote bad husbandry of fish......just a nicer way of promoting our hobby

 

[Charley]

Good to hear someone is getting some fresh seafood!

Dont they eat dogs in some countries over there too? Does that mean that in this country we should start treating dogs differently?

Fresh yes... from their horribly polluted oceans and rivers.

Even I draw a line eating dogs. But yes, they most definitely do eat dogs in China.