Where in the chain does the responsibility lie?

[PhreeByrd]

The consumer drives the market. With only very rare exceptions, this is true of every commodity. Responsibility for the availability of inappropriate products in the market, however, is obviously more complex. Still, some things are pretty clear.

I've never seen a herring for sale in an LFS or from an online retailer. There's a reason for this. Hobbyists don't want herring in their glass boxes. Everybody in the supply chain knows and understands this, from the collectors to the retailers. If hobbyists refuse to purchase inappropriate fish, the supply chain eventually catches on and refuses to make them available, because it's a waste of time, energy, and money to collect those animals. But it's pretty obvious when the collector finds a herring in his collection nets. When he finds a cleaner wrasse in there, well, it looks like a pretty little reef fish, so it must be sellable. He may be ignorant about the wrasse's suitability for the hobby. That means it's up to the consumer/hobbyist to reject that fish, then the LFS, then the importer, all the way back (finally) to the collector, who must eventually learn that this fish is not sellable. But it has to begin at the retail end, or the collector will never learn or know.

It's up to every one of us to determine what is and is not appropriate for our hobby. We need to be responsible for doing the research before a purchase, and that means more than asking for opinions on a web forum. There are countless resources available, and it's our fault if we don't avail ourselves of them and make wise decisions about these things.

 

[Paul B]

We will never know if fish are "Happy' until they evolve to where they can talk. Of course that would be scary and at that point, they may keep us.

But until then, we have to remember that fish in the sea "always" get eaten alive or die by suffocating on the deck of a ship. 99.9% to 100% of them get eaten as soon as they are born or soon after. They have to dodge other fish, seals, dolphins, porpoise, spears, seagulls, penguins, crabs, polar bears, nets, traps and hooks.

They don't have a great life unless they are a Great White Shark because they are constantly hunted by something trying to eat them. Even Sharks have problems because before they are born, in their Mother's womb, their brothers and sisters eat them.
Great White Sharks eat mainly accountants, which are not usually much of a threat to them except for their pocket protectors that get stuck in their gut.

Then of course there are very "Brave" hunters that go out and kill sharks so they can take them back to a dock, hang them up by their tail and tell people how brave they were even though the poor fish was in the sea minding it's own business until this Jiboni comes along with a $3,000,000.00 boat and shoots the thing with a harpoon. If he was really brave he would rub maceral guts on himself, jump in the water with the shark and get him in a headlock while pulling him back to the beach.

I think a fish is really happy if it is collected while young, before he gets eaten by a grouper and put in a natural tank with no predators. The fish will grow in there and "feel" safe and comfortable.

Then if it is a good, responsible aquarist, the fish will live out it's life to it's natural lifespan, "never" getting sick while eating foods it is supposed to eat. When it's life is almost over, it will be removed to die in peace and go to fish Heaven, Strawberry Fields Forever or wherever lucky fish go.

We can't compare a fishes life to ours but I think If I lived in a place where 47 times a day something tried to eat me (and many times succeeded) I would rather be "confined" to an area where there are no predators and plenty of food to live out my normal life in peace and no one would eat me, even after I croak of natural causes.
If there was some "Girl" fish around, I would even be happier, as long as they didn't make me clean the windows.

Of course if we get a fish, then dip it, medicate it, quarantine it, observe it then watch it get sick so we can post about it on a disease forum until it croaks, I think maybe it is better left in the sea.
Just my opinion of course.

 

[Sump Crab]

Ok, fair enough, granted that may be a bit of an exaggeration... sort of. But I am not the one saying "DO YOUR RESEARCH" before jumping into the hobby. Is taking a quick glance on liveaquaria sufficient? Especially when a newbie is for the first time setting up a tank with all its complexities. I am guessing not for the DO YOUR RESEARCH hobbyists. I think DO YOUR RESEARCH is already a turn off, sounds elitist and quite judgmental at the outset. Not a warm and welcoming feeling for a new hobbyist. I think the DO YOUR RESEARCH people would better spend their time, with greater effect, writing to the top of the chain where there is more impact. Picking off hobbyists one by one is so useless to saving fish on the grand scale of things it's silly. Not suggesting that we promote bad husbandry of fish......just a nicer way of promoting our hobby

In all honesty if a person does not want to do any research or if their feelings are hurt when someone suggest it then this hobby is probably not for them. It is not easy taking care of a reef and it does take a lot of work to be successful.

 

[Charley]

In all honesty if a person does not want to do any research or if their feelings are hurt when someone suggest it then this hobby is probably not for them. It is not easy taking care of a reef and it does take a lot of work to be successful.

Yes, totally agree with you. Sometimes I think the hobby could benefit from requiring a "fish hobbyist" license before you're allowed to purchase a saltwater fish. Solves a lot of problems. People would be required to study various aspects of the hobby, then pass a test. If you pass the test then only after you receive your fish hobbyist license are you allowed to buy a fish,etc. . then we can be rest assured there is a base level of knowledge, what you potentially getting into and make better decisions for the long term benefit of the hobby.

 

[Charley]

The consumer drives the market. With only very rare exceptions, this is true of every commodity. Responsibility for the availability of inappropriate products in the market, however, is obviously more complex. Still, some things are pretty clear.

I've never seen a herring for sale in an LFS or from an online retailer. There's a reason for this. Hobbyists don't want herring in their glass boxes. Everybody in the supply chain knows and understands this, from the collectors to the retailers. If hobbyists refuse to purchase inappropriate fish, the supply chain eventually catches on and refuses to make them available, because it's a waste of time, energy, and money to collect those animals. But it's pretty obvious when the collector finds a herring in his collection nets. When he finds a cleaner wrasse in there, well, it looks like a pretty little reef fish, so it must be sellable. He may be ignorant about the wrasse's suitability for the hobby. That means it's up to the consumer/hobbyist to reject that fish, then the LFS, then the importer, all the way back (finally) to the collector, who must eventually learn that this fish is not sellable. But it has to begin at the retail end, or the collector will never learn or know.

It's up to every one of us to determine what is and is not appropriate for our hobby. We need to be responsible for doing the research before a purchase, and that means more than asking for opinions on a web forum. There are countless resources available, and it's our fault if we don't avail ourselves of them and make wise decisions about these things.

Good points. Now that I dragged the poor herring herring into this, let me do my best to defend them. I think a major reason we do not have them in our tanks is because they are a very cold water fish. They school fabulously apparantly and could make quite an impression in ones tank. Could even be as smart as a clownfish in their own way. Look how they figured out how to school together for survival. They might even shimmer amazingly. I know they are food fish but quite sure I fry up a clownfish too. Just because they look prettier, have nice personalities we don't do it.

Saw the tuna tank in the Georgia aquarium, wish I had one, so cool. Didn't even want to eat it.

The lionfish is another story. So cool to have in our tanks, so exotic, so beautiful. Now to save the ecology of the reefs we have to look at them as rib steaks so we eat enough of them to balance them things out. All perception

Can't understand why the higher part of the chain gets a free pass? Everyone has a cell phone and google. Plus years of feedback and experience. The collectors, the wholesalers, the LFS., they know what grows too large. they know what has little chance to eat and survive better than we do. The collectors can say to themselves, ooops grows too large don't do it!. Wholesalers can say to themselves, don't buy it. Why does it have be only the consumer? Because its too convenient to blame the consumer.

Why is there never complaints that everyone should have a lid on their tanks? I spent too much on a nice rimless tank only to lose a few hundred dollars worth of fish that jumped out. All kinds of fish went surfing. This too is draining the reefs this constant replenishment of fish because no lids are required. Why? because so many people people love the look and in the end could not care less about the fish over how the tank looks even though they have appropriate sized tanks for the fish. But if one jumps out because one likes the look of the tank, that's cool. Then its all good.

 

[Sump Crab]

Yes, totally agree with you. Sometimes I think the hobby could benefit from requiring a "fish hobbyist" license before you're allowed to purchase a saltwater fish. Solves a lot of problems. People would be required to study various aspects of the hobby, then pass a test. If you pass the test then only after you receive your fish hobbyist license are you allowed to buy a fish,etc. . then we can be rest assured there is a base level of knowledge, what you potentially getting into and make better decisions for the long term benefit of the hobby.

I really hope you are joking. We already have way too much regulation in this country.

 

[Charley]

I really hope you are joking. We already have way too much regulation in this country.

Well, was just thinking out of the box. Thought I had a win-win there plus might have saved some fish from a subpar existence. Back to the drawing board I guess.

 

[Sump Crab]

Well, was just thinking out of the box. Thought I had a win-win there plus might have saved some fish from a subpar existence. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Thinking outside of the box is great and all but sometimes it seems like relatively soon we will need a license to take a poop in this country lol

 

[Sump Crab]

We will never know if fish are "Happy' until they evolve to where they can talk. Of course that would be scary and at that point, they may keep us.

We definitely tend to be anthropomorphic when thinking about our fish. I am as guilty as anyone in this matter.

 

[Double monti 61]

Only 15 fish...read page 21 of the successful reef aquarium by Daniel Knop

 

[Charley]

We will never know if fish are "Happy' until they evolve to where they can talk. Of course that would be scary and at that point, they may keep us.

But until then, we have to remember that fish in the sea "always" get eaten alive or die by suffocating on the deck of a ship. 99.9% to 100% of them get eaten as soon as they are born or soon after. They have to dodge other fish, seals, dolphins, porpoise, spears, seagulls, penguins, crabs, polar bears, nets, traps and hooks.

They don't have a great life unless they are a Great White Shark because they are constantly hunted by something trying to eat them. Even Sharks have problems because before they are born, in their Mother's womb, their brothers and sisters eat them.
Great White Sharks eat mainly accountants, which are not usually much of a threat to them except for their pocket protectors that get stuck in their gut.

Then of course there are very "Brave" hunters that go out and kill sharks so they can take them back to a dock, hang them up by their tail and tell people how brave they were even though the poor fish was in the sea minding it's own business until this Jiboni comes along with a $3,000,000.00 boat and shoots the thing with a harpoon. If he was really brave he would rub maceral guts on himself, jump in the water with the shark and get him in a headlock while pulling him back to the beach.

I think a fish is really happy if it is collected while young, before he gets eaten by a grouper and put in a natural tank with no predators. The fish will grow in there and "feel" safe and comfortable.

Then if it is a good, responsible aquarist, the fish will live out it's life to it's natural lifespan, "never" getting sick while eating foods it is supposed to eat. When it's life is almost over, it will be removed to die in peace and go to fish Heaven, Strawberry Fields Forever or wherever lucky fish go.

We can't compare a fishes life to ours but I think If I lived in a place where 47 times a day something tried to eat me (and many times succeeded) I would rather be "confined" to an area where there are no predators and plenty of food to live out my normal life in peace and no one would eat me, even after I croak of natural causes.
If there was some "Girl" fish around, I would even be happier, as long as they didn't make me clean the windows.

Of course if we get a fish, then dip it, medicate it, quarantine it, observe it then watch it get sick so we can post about it on a disease forum until it croaks, I think maybe it is better left in the sea.
Just my opinion of course.

I don't know, but I could sware that my algae blennie greets me in the morning with a smile proof enough for me! Oh man...here comes the anecdotal police. I treat my fish well. But not sure how safe they feel looking at my ugly mug.

 

[Charley]

Only 15 fish...read page 21 of the successful reef aquarium by Daniel Knop

Thanks, can u kindly give a heads up on the 15 fish? guessing only suggesting to keep those particular 15 fish? At some point will get the book...sounds interesting, much appreciated

 

[Stigigemla]

I often have a hard time with customers who want to buy a powder blue tang for their 26 gallon tank.
Just to say its the customers responsability is not enough for me. And I dont sell Lionfish or Palythoa. I just dont want to have a telefon call: "I got stung"
I have had that call and said "I didnt sell it so why did You by it at all". The customer said: Ok I will follow Your advice in the future but WHAT SHALL I DO!
As a dealer You can do a little for Your customers and their animals but they can always get the wrong animals at another place. Most dealers just dont care. If all dealers would act as if their customers are their income base for many years to follow we would have many less to leave the hobby.

 

[Eva Rose]

I often have a hard time with customers who want to buy a powder blue tang for their 26 gallon tank.
Just to say its the customers responsability is not enough for me. And I dont sell Lionfish or Palythoa. I just dont want to have a telefon call: "I got stung"
I have had that call and said "I didnt sell it so why did You by it at all". The customer said: Ok I will follow Your advice in the future but WHAT SHALL I DO!
As a dealer You can do a little for Your customers and their animals but they can always get the wrong animals at another place. Most dealers just dont care. If all dealers would act as if their customers are their income base for many years to follow we would have many less to leave the hobby.

Applaud you for your outlook. I totally agree. It has taken me a long time to find vendors that have your outlook & honest business practices. The others that are out for a buck at the expense of the fish & uninformed customers lose my business. They also miss out on all the supplies etc. , that a customer buys once they have a stocked tank. Appreciate vendors like yourself.

 

[WVNed]

It lies with us. We wave the money at someone that makes all the rest occur so thay can get the money.

On the internet there are 2 posts somewhere. One about a guy selling a fish to an inexperienced person so the fish will surly die and another about a person suing someone because they refused to sell them a fish.

This is the world we live in.

As to the rest
Keeping sea life isn't easy. It takes time, effort and money over an extended period. Once they are in your care it is only responsible to take care of them to the best of your ability. It's not all about having a pretty thing to look at in your living room. That is just a side benefit.
If you like to take long trips don't get a reef tank unless you are willing to pay someone else to care for it.
It's not a piece of art. It is a living thing.

Are they happy. I don't know. Simpler beings seem happy to me when there is no stress in their lives. Nothing wants to eat them, they have a clean place to live and enough to eat. I can give them that.

It's all I can really do.

 

[PhreeByrd]

I often have a hard time with customers who want to buy a powder blue tang for their 26 gallon tank.
Just to say its the customers responsability is not enough for me. And I dont sell Lionfish or Palythoa. I just dont want to have a telefon call: "I got stung"
I have had that call and said "I didnt sell it so why did You by it at all". The customer said: Ok I will follow Your advice in the future but WHAT SHALL I DO!
As a dealer You can do a little for Your customers and their animals but they can always get the wrong animals at another place. Most dealers just dont care. If all dealers would act as if their customers are their income base for many years to follow we would have many less to leave the hobby.

I don't disagree with most of this, and can certainly understand the sentiment.
As customers, we often do, and should be able to, place some trust in the dealer for reliable information and advice. Not all dealers are capable of providing that, and some just don't care. Ultimately, caveat emptor must prevail.

But I still applaud those dealers and shops that find it important to offer reliable and trustworthy advice, even when it may invite the loss of a sale. When we find such a seller, we owe them as much of our business as we can give them, because they are few and far between IME.

 

[Jesterrace]

We will never know if fish are "Happy' until they evolve to where they can talk. Of course that would be scary and at that point, they may keep us.

But until then, we have to remember that fish in the sea "always" get eaten alive or die by suffocating on the deck of a ship. 99.9% to 100% of them get eaten as soon as they are born or soon after. They have to dodge other fish, seals, dolphins, porpoise, spears, seagulls, penguins, crabs, polar bears, nets, traps and hooks.

They don't have a great life unless they are a Great White Shark because they are constantly hunted by something trying to eat them. Even Sharks have problems because before they are born, in their Mother's womb, their brothers and sisters eat them.
Great White Sharks eat mainly accountants, which are not usually much of a threat to them except for their pocket protectors that get stuck in their gut.

Then of course there are very "Brave" hunters that go out and kill sharks so they can take them back to a dock, hang them up by their tail and tell people how brave they were even though the poor fish was in the sea minding it's own business until this Jiboni comes along with a $3,000,000.00 boat and shoots the thing with a harpoon. If he was really brave he would rub maceral guts on himself, jump in the water with the shark and get him in a headlock while pulling him back to the beach.

I think a fish is really happy if it is collected while young, before he gets eaten by a grouper and put in a natural tank with no predators. The fish will grow in there and "feel" safe and comfortable.

Then if it is a good, responsible aquarist, the fish will live out it's life to it's natural lifespan, "never" getting sick while eating foods it is supposed to eat. When it's life is almost over, it will be removed to die in peace and go to fish Heaven, Strawberry Fields Forever or wherever lucky fish go.

We can't compare a fishes life to ours but I think If I lived in a place where 47 times a day something tried to eat me (and many times succeeded) I would rather be "confined" to an area where there are no predators and plenty of food to live out my normal life in peace and no one would eat me, even after I croak of natural causes.
If there was some "Girl" fish around, I would even be happier, as long as they didn't make me clean the windows.

Of course if we get a fish, then dip it, medicate it, quarantine it, observe it then watch it get sick so we can post about it on a disease forum until it croaks, I think maybe it is better left in the sea.
Just my opinion of course.

I agree completely about the idea that a young fish isn't always better off in the wild. I will agree certainly that the size of the tank (aka the ocean reefs) are infinitely more preferable in the wild, but if fish could talk I'll bet not one fish in any tank would complain about the lack of predators or the near constant vigil about something eating them in the ocean. They also have a reliable mixed food source on a regular basis. I know that finding food isn't quite as big of a problem on a reef, but there is still lots of competition. In a tank pretty much every one gets something to eat on a daily basis.

 

[cancun]

LOL! All great points....I have learned over the years in this hobby to rely on yourself and not a LFS to help you along the way. I was just saying to my husband the other day (this is my hobby) that to be successful in this hobby it sometimes feels like you have to be a plumber, electrician, Marine Biologist, research expert, chemist, and who knows what else. Unfortunately it causes new people in this hobby to make a lot of costly mistakes.... with no or little help from their LFS.....

 

[Charley]

LOL! All great points....I have learned over the years in this hobby to rely on yourself and not a LFS to help you along the way. I was just saying to my husband the other day (this is my hobby) that to be successful in this hobby it sometimes feels like you have to be a plumber, electrician, Marine Biologist, research expert, chemist, and who knows what else. Unfortunately it causes new people in this hobby to make a lot of costly mistakes.... with no or little help from their LFS.....

Totally, agree. On the cusp of leaving the hobby because of all the hats one needs to wear. Thought the hobby would be more fun. But it is more like it is not so fun but rewarding of you can do it successfully.

I can't understand the thought process of LFS selling the blue ringed octopus. Makes piranha's seem like guppies.