While fighting dinos, no WC allowed. What elements would be depleted?

saltyfilmfolks · Jun 25, 2017

I'm not familiar with the bio mate.

The cyano clean I would stop.

With one of those products you may be feeding the Dino's with a carbon source like it was a bacteria.
The coral snow I belive kind of binds organics to keep the tank clean. I do forget how that works.

awais98 · Jun 25, 2017

David Cher said:
i have been dosing cyano clean with biomate mixed with coral snow at night and in the morning Zeozym with bak

which one to stop ?

You are dosing zeo start daily right?
Decrease the dose.

Ted_C · Jun 25, 2017

A few tip regarding dinos that I have learned or have theories on:
1: Dinos are often mis-identified as other biologicals - from cyano to diatoms to algae. These biologicals take many different forms in our tanks and are many different sub-species. The 2nd best test for Dino's is the paper towel test. The best test is a microscope and a sample and compare to others on the internet.
2: Dinos thrive because of biological conditions more than chemical conditions. A triton test is not going to give you a smoking gun an any specific element that drives the dino's explosion in population. My theory behind this is below.

This is indeed the year(s) of dino. My bloom ran from 2016 to early 2017. Why is this? Are we getting fish / corals / inverts from sources that are infected? That would be a huge coincidence since we are seeing this across the globe. What I think: Dinos are always present in the ocean and in our tanks. The trick is striking balance to avoid the massive explosions in population. Change in bio-filtration also appears to be a mistake when dealing with this. So many people get these blooms when they make a big change to the biological setup of the tank: like removing a sand bed or going ULNS.

So what does fuel the dinoflagellete? my theory is lack of competition. We run our tanks so clean - with zero phosphates and too low nitrates. This is achieved through any number of means but mostly it's when you approach the conditions of an ULNS (ultra low nutrient system). This drives down bacteria and algae populations to the point where there is nothing left to outcompete the dinos. The dinos take over and it's pretty much game over for the other competitors.

There was no miracle cure for me. I tried chemi-clean, blackouts, water changes, high pH, removing sand, skimming wet, frequent (daily) filter sock changes. Nothing would put a dent in this. The only thing that worked for me was running so dirty that bubble algae took over the tank. Once I allowed this to happen - the dino's were wiped out. I had to let the bubble algae really take over the tank though and for a long time as well (at least 6 months). It was covering both overflows. It was jammed in the egg crate to a point where I couldn't see any white.

Below is a before (while I was working to remove the sand bed) because at that time I still thought I had a nutrient issue and was dealing with brown algae. Dinos cover the glass and the egg crate.

The 2nd picture is how I am today. I'm sorry - but I dont have any pics of the bubble algae: who wants to take pictures of their tanks at their worst right? I do have a touch of cyano in the tank that I'm working on at the moment. I eliminated the bubble algae through regular mechanical removal (and replacing the frag racks with acrylic to reduce dead spots) and Vibrant does twice a week for 2 months.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jun 25, 2017

I do not know that water changes necessarily boost dinos, but if so, it could be any of several chemicals.

Assuming it is a salt mix free of organics, I think iron is a likely candidate. It is needed by every organism and depletes fast in a reef tank. Other trace metals might also be the cause.

Reefer1978 · Jun 25, 2017

@taricha (if my memory serves me right) did some testing on nutrient control with Dino samples, and indeed sample that was dosed iron did much better for dino growth. But here's the conflict, you are not doing WC to control dino growth, which leads to iron depletion. But as Randy has mentioned, all organisms need iron. What to do?

taricha · Jun 25, 2017

Yep. I feel pretty strongly that it's Iron in a bunch of cases (including in mine), but not in all cases. That doesn't mean the tank has zero Iron and everything will die. The dino bloom can stall when they are outcompeted by other organisms for a nutrient they need. This can happen if Dinos have a bigger need for the nutrient than other organisms in order to grow, or if they are not as good at uptaking the nutrient.
It also doesn't mean you can never add Iron again. Once the dinos have been removed, and other organisms have become dominant, then you can add Iron as much as you want.

Rakie · Jun 25, 2017

Interesting! Thanks for your insight @Randy Holmes-Farley -- Some swear a WC makes a big difference, some say it makes no difference. With the species I had, I can tell you it was immediate both times I had done premature water changes.

@saltyfilmfolks -- I don't have any shots from this most recent bout, but it's exactly like it was just weeks before their second emergence, so I will post some pics of it in my tank (and eating my corals!) as well as a few other more detailed pics in a follow up post (this is a good chunk of pics). My camera work gets progressively better so don't mind some pics being a little more fuzzy and others being more crisp.

So here are some overall shots, a couple "before" pics first.

During Dinos

After surviving dinos 1.0 (Hard to see from a distance, but many corals have some bleaching and bald spots from dinos)

___________________________________________________________
_________________________ POST TWO _________________________

Here's what I can tell you on my system:
- Setup last October -- 50 cube, with sump around 40g water volume
- SPS dominant, had no previous dinos/algae's before
- Fuge was added 2 months ago
- Nutrients are 5-10 no3, .05 - .13 po4 (been swinging a bit with the inability to skim, siporax removal, and lots of dead dinos)
- Fish pop: 4 wrasse, bangaii, 3 gobies, midnight clown
- Inverts: Scarlet flame shrimp & Cleaner shrimp
- Snails: 8 Trochus, 6 Astrea, 5 Cerith, 2-3 Nerite, 5 Nass, 1 turbo
- Other Snails: A few chitons, which happened to have just bred.
- Dosing: 2 part, kno3 / po4 to get nutrients stable, AF Pro Bio S to reseed tank after Siporax removal

Metronidazole -- Used Seachem Metroplex (70% metro conc.), used for second dino bout ONLY.
- Dosage: 125mg/10g (Can use up to 250mg/10g)
- Dosed for: 3 days over 4 days -- Dino death was so rampant, I turned on skimmer during day 3 to clear out the water, and then did my final dose on day 4 (3rd dose)

I continued with bubbling and manual removal -- Bubbling really just aids manual removal, that's all it does, but it helps more than you'd think. I feel safe saying bubbles and manual removal are the cornerstone of dealing with just about any dino species. But they are not enough in and of themselves.

Dino Species -- Ostreopsis Heptagona (As suggested by my buddy with microscope, Ostreopsis Ovata is second contender)

Donovan Joannes · Jun 25, 2017

IME, fighting dinos or cyano with multiple method chemically will worsen the situation. What you need to do IMO is reducing the nutrients they feed. Select one method you are familiar with, let it works progressively over time. Let biological filtration take control, once stabilize you shouldn't have dino/cyano/diatom issue. These 3-stooges issue in small numbers will appear from time to time, having a good flow will solve the problem (its in there but you can't see it BTW).

Rakie · Jun 25, 2017

Donovan Joannes said:
IME, fighting dinos or cyano with multiple method chemically will worsen the situation. What you need to do IMO is reducing the nutrients they feed.

Well firstly, there's over 2000 species of dinos, there is NO one thing that will get rid of all species. Second, a metric ton of people have had success getting rid of dinos by upping nutrients, in fact, my dinos came from an utter lack of nutrients -- Algae and microfauna were taken over by dinos (Protozoa, one of the simplest life forms on the planet that get out competed by almost everything).

So while what you said may work for what you had, it was literally the cause of my problems.

Donovan Joannes · Jun 25, 2017

I am simply saying let nature do it slowly, doing it fast without taking out the foods off the plate that they feed (long terms) on will not solve your problem in long run. It will return. In the end i am just giving you a fraction of idea to get rid of it permanently. At least you won't see it growing because I know its everywhere. Up to you which path you gonna go, I am here just offer some help. Good luck.

Rakie · Jun 25, 2017

Donovan Joannes said:
I am simply saying let nature do it slowly, doing it fast without taking out the foods off the plate that they feed (long terms) on will not solve your problem in long run. It will return. In the end i am just giving you a fraction of idea to get rid of it permanently. At least you won't see it growing because I know its everywhere. Up to you which path you gonna go, I am here just offer some help. Good luck.

No worries at all, I'm just talking with ya. I've tried lowering nutrients first and it made it significantly worse (with my species). I never had dinos before until a little bit ago, i'm not 100% sure where they came from but I'd bet on me foolishly adding Siporax without rinsing it, putting in tons of silica. That was literally the only change before dinos.

Donovan Joannes · Jun 25, 2017

I am good sir. I know it's frustrating, dino aka red tide is very common problem here in the tropics. I patiently waited 2 years to stabilize my tank and slowly build up my bio filter. I tried a few chemical filtration with no luck. My nutrients was off the charts (80ppm - 120ppm nitrate, unknown PO4 for years) and it does nothing to dino and cyano, instead I have cycle of these two issue. I believe they compete with each other causing the cycle. I am now happy with my minimal setup (fully bacteria driven system).

Rakie · Jun 25, 2017

Donovan Joannes said:
I am good sir. I know it's frustrating, dino aka red tide is very common problem here in the tropics. I patiently waited 2 years to stabilize my tank and slowly build up my bio filter. I tried a few chemical filtration with no luck. My nutrients was off the charts (80ppm - 120ppm nitrate, unknown PO4 for years) and it does nothing to dino and cyano, instead I have cycle of these two issue. I believe they compete with each other causing the cycle. I am now happy with my minimal setup (fully bacteria driven system).

Yep, red tides happen here too (So Cal). My system ended up ULNS from Siporax, I am not a fan of ULNS, but even after dosing 3-4 ppm no3, the next morning I would test at 0.5 - 1. I think the siporax was a bit too much for my tank at the time.I've never really had algae issues or dinos before this, so it was not pleasant. Most of my SPS is now severely damaged, but thankfully it seems like 75% can still survive, 25% have hit the trash bin already.

David Cher · Jun 26, 2017

even if i want to restart the tank , the rocks and sand cannot be reuse right ? i need to use tap water to rinse the tank ?

Rakie · Jun 26, 2017

Ted_C said:
1) So what does fuel the dinoflagellete? my theory is lack of competition. We run our tanks so clean - with zero phosphates and too low nitrates. This is achieved through any number of means but mostly it's when you approach the conditions of an ULNS (ultra low nutrient system). This drives down bacteria and algae populations to the point where there is nothing left to outcompete the dinos. The dinos take over and it's pretty much game over for the other competitors.

2) There was no miracle cure for me. I tried chemi-clean, blackouts, water changes, high pH, removing sand, skimming wet, frequent (daily) filter sock changes. Nothing would put a dent in this. The only thing that worked for me was running so dirty that bubble algae took over the tank. Once I allowed this to happen - the dino's were wiped out. I had to let the bubble algae really take over the tank though and for a long time as well (at least 6 months). It was covering both overflows. It was jammed in the egg crate to a point where I couldn't see any white.

1) Agreed -- It is definitely a lack of competition. Protozoa are one of the simplest life forms on earth, and at the bottom of the food chain. Many people allow other algae to out compete dinos with good results. Adding a fuge slowed mine, but getting a little bit of other algae to grow also helped greatly. For me, mine came right when I added siporax. I foolishly decided to follow some bad advice and not wash/rinse them -- apparently, they are loaded with silica/silicates, and need a thorough soak / rinse before use.

Within a few days of adding that, dinos started to kick up. Dinos are very likely in every system, but as you said, they are kept in check by other biological mechanisms.

2) For me, I found doing a few things made a difference. Doing one thing or another couldn't come close to beating them, you had to do a few things. The cornerstone for me, seemed to be manual removal every day, bacteria, nutrients, and the second time -- Metroplex.

I tried metroplex the second time as all of my high dollar acros were getting slayed, and I was willing to do anything.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jun 26, 2017

Donovan Joannes said:
IME, fighting dinos or cyano with multiple method chemically will worsen the situation. What you need to do IMO is reducing the nutrients they feed. Select one method you are familiar with, let it works progressively over time. Let biological filtration take control, once stabilize you shouldn't have dino/cyano/diatom issue. These 3-stooges issue in small numbers will appear from time to time, having a good flow will solve the problem (its in there but you can't see it BTW).

Not sure what you mean by "multiple method chemically", but some chemical methods work quite well according to users. Antibiotics for cyano and perhaps hydrogen peroxide or bleach for dinos.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jun 26, 2017

Rakie said:
No worries at all, I'm just talking with ya. I've tried lowering nutrients first and it made it significantly worse (with my species). I never had dinos before until a little bit ago, i'm not 100% sure where they came from but I'd bet on me foolishly adding Siporax without rinsing it, putting in tons of silica. That was literally the only change before dinos.

Can't be the exact reason. Dinos do not use silicate.

If you had bad effects by lowering nutrients, that might be because something like iron became more available as you began to starve other organisms that used it, making it available for the dinos.

There is always an underlying mechanism behind more vague ideas like "stabilize biofilter", etc.

Donovan Joannes · Jun 26, 2017

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Not sure what you mean by "multiple method chemically", but some chemical methods work quite well according to users. Antibiotics for cyano and perhaps hydrogen peroxide or bleach for dinos.

I was referring to off the shelf products (in a bag) meant for aquarium. It supposed to absorb silicate/nitrate/phosphate etc.