Whole tank wiped out over night.

[uutank]

Good - I think the most common cause of fast killing of fishes (IM ) - oxygen depletion is overruled. Still on the path of intoxication - can you exclude any toxic gases from the air. Herbicides, pesticides and so on? Industrial smoke or something like that? Do not forget - a skimmer is as good at putting gases into the aquaria as it is to take them away.

Sincerely Lasse

I don’t think so, as if the air quality would’ve been so low, or if there would’ve been harmful gaseous exchange in the tank then, it would’ve inhibited the growth of all the organisms inside. Be it corals or fishes or inverts. Interestingly I bought the clown and goby very small, and they increased in size considerably so is with long fin fairy wrasse.
Also my coral except the goniopora and cup coral all were brought in as very small frags and they grew considerably. So I think this might not be the case.
As of some say ammonia build up in tank, then imo my pistol shrimp would’ve been the first to die but the guy is doing really fine.

 

[Retro Reefer]

Poor air quality isn’t necessarily good to effect your tank slowly.. there are many threads here on R2R about people spraying air freshener in the same room as tank and killing everything in hours. There are many products with dangerous amounts of volatile organic compounds such as paint, Lacquers, Varnishes, Cleaning products, Pesticides and Adhesives which could wipe out your tank fast.. you said they where building a house near you, it is common practice to use lots of different adhesives and spray on finish’s these days in new home construction,

 

[JBKReef]

I agree with @Retro Reefer I've seen horror storries of Lysol being sprayed in the same room, 1o feet away from the tank and fish passing away shortly there after. Chemicals in the air act quick.

Is there any chance the cooler malfunctioned, do you have any heat monitoring on the tank?

 

[Lasse]

Even scented candles can cause the death of fish in saltwater aquarium. The skimmer is very good for keeping the oxygen at appropriate levels - But also good at introducing other gases. The rule is - can you smell anything - for sure - this will end up in the water! Even if you can not smell - there may be other dangerous gases in the air that are odorless

And it is fast processes

I do not know if your problems has been caused by microorganisms or of chemicals / water values. I´m only emphasize this pathway because it is normally downgraded in different threads here at R2R. My first reaction to suddenly deaths or problem is always to try to exclude that any toxic compound - either from the inside or the outside of my aquarium - has something with this to do. Disease by microorganism - my last way of thinking when it is happen during around 12 - 14 hours.

But when we will always have suggestions about the new 42 - Velvet No offence - I´m only joking and try to have you to google what in h-l he means with 42. Good Luck

Sincerely Lasse

 

[saltyhog]

Toxins certainly fit the scenario. So do Brook and Velvet. I don't think a month in QT would rule out velvet especially in wrasses with their thick slime coat.

I think ammonia is unlikely. I've found API ammonia test to be very reliable for detecting ammonia...by some reports its downfall is never showing zero even when ammonia is zero. I've not had that problem with it.

PS, ammonia is the only API test that I think is worthwhile.

 

[uutank]

If this is caused by exchange of harmful gases. Then what should be my course of action. There are corals and inverts in that tank. Also sand sifting goby is alive inside. But I’m unable to get it out of tank. I’m preparing for a 200 litres, water change now.

 

[Big G]

Gram negative bacterial infections kill rather quickly and would not necessarily effect all of the fish depending on their individual immune systems. You could do a "gram stain" on the dead fish to confirm.

 

[Lasse]

Even if it was toxic gases - they do not need to be in the aquaria at the moment. The skimmer will transport them into the water if they are in the air. If they not are in the air or in low concentrations - the skimmer will transport the from the water to the air again. I have not a clue of what it is - I only high lite different scenarios. You have to rule them out or confirm them by your self with all of the information you have of your aquaria. Has there been any painting in the area, have you smell something, has someone use pesticides around your house. Was it a calm night and you use scented candles when you take your evening tea (or coffee). You understand what I mean. Just write down different scenarios and take them away - one after the other as not probable.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Gram negative bacterial infections kill rather quickly and would not necessarily effect all of the fish depending on their individual immune systems. You could do a "gram stain" on the dead fish to confirm.

A dead fish will always give bacteria in a cultivation - that´s one of the problems with diagnosis of bacterial fish diseases. A sample must be taken from a living fish

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Big G]

A dead fish will always give bacteria in a cultivation - that´s one of the problems with diagnosis of bacterial fish diseases. A sample must be taken from a living fish

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, would you suggest a sample from the remaining fish to test for gram negative bacteria?

 

[Reeferdood]

Due to this setup being outside it might be impossible to find the smoking gun without doing a necropsy on the deceased fish. There are way too many variables that could come into play here. I would bet that someone has already suggested it within this thread, there are a lot of very knowledgeable folks here. Another scenario could be maybe even bird droppings in the water, it really is a crap shoot at this point.
Again, sorry for your loss.

 

[iDeath]

I feel like if it was brook that clown would've also died. They seem particularly susceptible to it. Just based on that alone I'm thinking it is probably some toxin that got into the water. Sorry for your losses man

 

[uutank]

Lasse, would you suggest a sample from the remaining fish to test for gram negative bacteria?

How to test for a gram negative bacteria never heard that before. Please elaborate, and share further info on the same.

 

[uutank]

Strangely the clown’s breath has become stable now, in qt and I’ve added copper in it.
I’m highly looking at the toxicity angle. But I can’t understand the changing color of wrasse.
Though I’m going to complete copper treatment on it. Also if toxicity is in play, then how harmful is it for my corals and how can I save them. I’ve a really beautiful goniopora and it’s doing well, so far. I don’t want another night like this. :’(

**** man!! I was looking at the tank and it’s so sad to see it motionless. It sucks man. I’ll not add a fish until my neighbour’s are finished with their construction.

 

[saltyhog]

A dead fish will always give bacteria in a cultivation - that´s one of the problems with diagnosis of bacterial fish diseases. A sample must be taken from a living fish

Sincerely Lasse

I'll have to disagree with this. Bacteria associated with decomposition are usually different species than those causing disease. Some wisdom in interpreting the culture results must be used but cultures from necropsy are still useful.

 

[Big G]

How to test for a gram negative bacteria never heard that before. Please elaborate, and share further info on the same.

From Humblefish:

This guide will provide the basics on how to perform a skin scrape: http://www.aquariadise.com/checking-aquarium-fish-parasites/

There are some good necropsy techniques available here: http://necropsymanual.net/en/

Some microscope pictorial guides are available here: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/department_fisheries_and_aquatic_sciences

Let me know if that helps. I can also probably dig out two books I have (Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment by Dr. Edward J Noga & Captive Seawater Fishes: Science and Technology by Dr. Stephen Spotte) to find more information.

Gram testing materials are readily available through Amazon, etc.

 

[DeniseAndy]

Noga is the book I reference when needed. I have a copy and it has been very useful.

 

[Lasse]

Bacteria associated with decomposition are usually different species than those causing disease

And - I´m sorry - but I have to disagree with this according to fishes And - correct me if I´m wrong - all heterotrophic bacteria are by of definition associated with decomposition in one or another way

Fishes literally lives in a bacterial soup. What I have learned - most bacteria causing disease among fishes are facultative pathogenic- it means that they not always make fishes sick. They can exist without fishes going sick because the fishes has normally a defence mechanism against them - both non-specific and specific defence system. these facultative pathogenic bacteria are normally associated with decomposition. You maybe have hear that you never ever shall leave a dead fish in the tank. The reason is that a dead fish make a perfect substrate for these bacteria and at a certain time - they are so many that they can break through the defence system of other fishes. I use to say - take a needle - put it once through the skin of your thumb - nema problema - but do it 1 million times and you have no thumb. You can count in vibrio spp among those bacteria and many others. Some vibrio spp can during very hot summers cause diseases among humans - this have happens this summer at the west coast of Sweden - this because warm water - higher decomposition rate - more bacteria

There is very few bacteria that are obligate pathogenic to fish - but there is bacteria like the one causing BKD (Bacterial Kidney Disease) in som species of fish. But these bacteria you will not see in a skin scrap. You can take a skin scrape - but take it from a wound of a living fish. If you take it from the skin - you will probably find a lot of bacteria - including Vibrio spp and other facultative pathogenic bacteria but this does not mean that the fish is infected.

Lasse, would you suggest a sample from the remaining fish to test for gram negative bacteria

IMO - if you take a sample from an infected wound - maybe yes - but as I state above - if you take it from the skin you probably find some but it is not sure that the fish really is sick.

IMO - we have to differ between parasites and bacteria. To see and determine parasites - you normally only need a microscope - to even detect that there is bacteria - you need to make a bacterial culture and see if there will be any growth on the agar plate (or other substrates) The bacteria grow through decomposition of the substrate.

From this reference (my bold) and the bacterial part

Most bacterial pathogens of fish are aerobic, gram-negative rods. Diagnosis is by isolation of the organism in pure culture from infected tissues and identification of the bacterial agent. Sensitivity testing before antibiotic use is recommended.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[saltyhog]

That's why I said some wisdom has to be used in interpreting the results. I don't think they're useless.

Fish swim in this bacterial soup. Bacterial growth from post mortem specimens should look like samples of the bacterial soup if they are purely from decomp. If you grow a monoculture however, there's a really good chance that organism is responsible.

A living fish can have necrotic tissue which is in essence decomposing. Why would that be any better than a dead specimen? It would still reflect the bacterial soup.

 

[Lasse]

A living fish can have necrotic tissue which is in essence decomposing. Why would that be any better than a dead specimen? It would still reflect the bacterial soup.

Because if the fish is dead - in less than a hour it is invaded of the soup even if there was non before because of the fish defence system. In reality -It is no prove that the fish was infected when it was alive. If you isolat it from an infected wound in a living fish - you know that the fish is infected and sick and the bacteria has break through the defence system

Sincerely Lasse