Whole tank wiped out over night.

[NemHost]

Hello,

In regards to mycrobacterium marinum often also related to human tb and or leprosy. Because this is a bacteria, it’s extremelly resistant to treatment and generally appears in human extremities. Normally this bacteria can actually take affect within 48 hours and stay dormant or lay dormant for up to 2 years. There have been cases where it has been studied to affect some while having weakened immune systems at any given point from 2 days to 2 years. It can enter through scratches, fish spine punctures, mouth siphoning your fish tank (sooo gross why people do that or with gasoline), even silivers on ones hand can cause the infection to enter, and there are others non related to a fish tank. Some don’t realize what they have at first because where the infected area is, it starts out kinda like a bruise it’s purple in color. If one has started said infection then it can take up to two weeks to show signs and symptoms of it. But, where some are misguided is the fact That once it enters it can lay dormant for up to two years. It also is generally the most common one seen in the fish aquarium section and or
Coastal areas etc.

Most people can be treated for it with the same medicine we use to treat human tb. For some people the treatment ranges in recovery time, but some to half can take up to one year to recover from this. Some studies have shown it can affect very quickly, and others very slowly, that it varies greatly depending on the condition of the host aka person.

Have you ever seen anybody infected by M. marinum? What’s the recommended treatment?
Thanks

 

[Toofattofish]

Hey @uutank
c) Can you take you water sample and give it to a lab and get a test done similar to a urine culture ? just rule out those gram negative/ecoli/etc

I've seen a few posts mention either this or gram staining at home using a kit.
Gram staining at home is in all likelihood a waste of time. One is probably going to see a variety of gram positive and gram negative bacteria because those are present everywhere, on us, inside us, on the floor, in the water etc.
Sending to a lab will definitely be more costly and will also likely be a waste of money, though they may be able to isolate some bacteria out.
I see a lot of posts mentioning gram negative bacteria as being deadly for fish, but does anyone have a reference for this? Many of our own flora are gram-negative, yet we don't cause tank wipeouts every time we stick our hands in the tank.

 

[Humblefish]

I see a lot of posts mentioning gram negative bacteria as being deadly for fish, but does anyone have a reference for this?

Most bacteria that infect fish are gram-negative, including Aeromonas hydrophila, Aeromonas salmonicida, Flavobacterium columnare (which causes columnaris), Vibrio, and Pseudomonas species.

Source: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084

 

[Toofattofish]

@Sarah24! Are there any special zoonoses in fish with a fast pattern you have in mind? The most known pathogens from the family Mycobacterium are normally very slow in action - both in fish and humans.

Sincerely Lasse

The worst one by far is vibrio vulnificus. You can google more but it causes rapid tissue necrosis and can quickly lead to death if not treated (often needs surgical treatment). Other ones are aeromonas or pseudomonas which can cause bad infections but not nearly as bad as the first one.

 

[uutank]

By similar environment is your seller running at kh 12 ?

Did not check his kh for sure. But the fishes were with me for 3 months, hence I dont think acclimation is a reason.

 

[Toofattofish]

Most bacteria that infect fish are gram-negative, including Aeromonas hydrophila, Aeromonas salmonicida, Flavobacterium columnare (which causes columnaris), Vibrio, and Pseudomonas species.

Source: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084

Thanks for the link. I might need to rephrase though. I was wondering if there was a reference that stated that gram-negatives are deadlier than gram-positives.

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks for the link. I might need to rephrase though. I was wondering if there was a reference that stated that gram-negatives are deadlier than gram-positives.

IME; yes. Most eye infections I've scraped have been gram positive and after a lengthy battle the worst that ever happens is the fish loses the eye. (Still sucks, I know.) But I've lost fish to gram negative infections in less than 24 hours. I'd rather deal with a fish loaded with velvet than a gram-negative infection.

 

[Lasse]

IME; yes. Most eye infections I've scraped have been gram positive and after a lengthy battle the worst that ever happens is the fish loses the eye. (Still sucks, I know.) But I've lost fish to gram negative infections in less than 24 hours. I'd rather deal with a fish loaded with velvet than a gram-negative infection.

How do you know that you lose the fish because of gram-negativ infection and nothing else? As @Toofattofish state - you will always find gram-negativ bacteria on a skin scrape of fish - IMO especially if the fish is dead before. It can be right but IMO there needs to be more indication than just a stain test. IMO most of the known "fish-killers" is gram-negative - but there is tons of gram-negatives that´s not normally are deadly out there. IMO because of the fact that most of these gram-negative bacteria always are in our water, gravel and filters - there is other factor as stress, occurrence of a growth substrate and so on that is important if the fish will be infected or not.

From the very good link (IMO) from your post 63.


My bold

Gram-Positive Bacteria versus Gram-Negative Bacteria
Most bacteria that infect fish fall into one of two groups—gram-positive or gram-negative. These groups are named based on their response to a protocol called gram staining. Gram-positive bacteria stain blue, and gram-negative bacteria stain pink. They stain differently because each group has a different type of outer structure known as the cell wall. This difference is important for the producer and aquaculturist because some antibiotics work better against gram-positive bacteria and others work better against gram-negative bacteria. Most bacteria that infect fish are gram-negative, including Aeromonas hydrophila, Aeromonas salmonicida, Flavobacterium columnare (which causes columnaris), Vibrio, and Pseudomonas species. (See UF/IFAS Fact Sheets FA-14 Aeromonas Infections, FA-31 Vibrio Infections of Fish and FA-11 Columnaris disease). The major group of gram-positive bacteria that cause disease in fish are Streptococcus. (See UF/IFAS Circular 57 Streptococcal Infections in Fish.)

A third group, the acid-fast bacteria, which includes Mycobacterium species, will not be discussed in this publication because they are considerably different from most other bacteria (see SRAC Publication 4706, Mycobacterial Infections of Fish).

The summary

Summary
Many bacterial infections in ornamental fish are avoidable with proper management. However, if a population does become infected, it is important to eliminate or reduce all contributing stresses. A fish health specialist should be consulted to assist with proper diagnosis, to run culture and sensitivity tests, and to provide the best information regarding dosages and treatment intervals.

Misuse of any antibiotic can lead to the creation of resistant bacteria in a facility. In an attempt to avoid this, some farms will rotate the antibiotics they use every few months or every year. However, the best solution is to positively identify the bacteria by running culture and sensitivity tests, and thereby avoid unnecessary, costly, and potentially harmful treatments.

The most extreme cases of misuse and 'shot-gunning' can result in 'superinfections' in fish. These infections are caused by bacteria that are resistant to most of the commonly used antibiotics. Obviously, this situation is not desirable, and it is completely avoidable in most cases. Once it occurs, however, little can be done to reverse the situation, and the farmer is left with no treatment options other than depopulation of the fish followed by sterilization of the culture system and equipment or scrupulously good management.

The most extreme cases of misuse and 'shot-gunning' can result in 'superinfections' in fish

This is very important - maybe it is the answer of "US-fish health issue" and the difference between US and Europan reefers different situation according to fish health.

Thank you for the link Humblefish

Everyone dealing with diseases in fish should read this if they not believe in what some of us write according to stress factors and unnecessary treatment followed by "shot-gunning" with medicines. IMO - all prophylactic treatment with different type of chemical products is shot-gunning and should not be considered at all. With prophylactic treatment in this context - I mean treatment with "medicines" just in "case of"
​

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

what are you using for top off water and saltmix?

 

[najer]

I'm more of a coral person, I still tend my water, I would suggest a toxin, your skimmer is going crazy in your pic.

 

[uutank]

what are you using for top off water and saltmix?

RO DI water. And salt Red sea coral pro

 

[Humblefish]

How do you know that you lose the fish because of gram-negativ infection and nothing else?

While the fish is still alive, large red spots (or sometimes white patches) form where the bacteria are feeding. These are the areas I scrape and almost always stain pink. I often also find evidence of parasite trophonts (or monogeneans) in these areas, which is why I believe these infections are sometimes "secondary" to a preexisting worm or parasitic infestation. Now, which was most responsible for the fish's death I cannot say. It is beyond my capacity to correctly ID the genus, species of the offending bacterium in most cases.

However, I've also encountered cases where the above happens (red spots/white patches + stains pink), and there is no evidence of parasites or worms anywhere on the fish; not even inside the gills. Internal necropsy doesn't usually turn up anything either; although this latest infection showed evidence of white patches + gram-negative bacteria growing over the fishes' internal organs.

 

[Lasse]

Then you handle bacterial fish diseases - it will always ended at the final question - do this disease depend on an enemy that´s attack from the outside and trying to go in or is it an attack from the inside and out? Most normal is an attack from the outside and then the attacker is depended of areas to attach there the defence system of the fish is weak or absent. This will often happen in parts there the mucus production or the skinn is damaged by parasites or mechanical injuries. If the fish is in good health, well feed and low stress - they normally manage this attacks by them self with help of their specific and unspecific defence system. However - is there an infection inside the fish - in the blood stream - it is more serious. My experiences are that if you see small red spots (small as pinpricks), especially on the abdomen - then you are in trouble. This is IMO signs that you have a heavy infection in the blod stream - a sepsis. This fish should be taken away from other fishes ASAP. It will serve as source of infection and because of the amount of bacteria coming out - they will stress other fishes and can also break through even the best defence in the skin and mucus layer and goes from the outside to the inside and cause sepsis. The same with dead fishes that´s not will be eaten up by your CUC - they will be a source for infection rather fast.

IMO - there is no need of staining if you do not go further and try to identify the bacteria and do sensitive tests. It is not enough to know if it is a gram-negative or not in order to use antibiotics - IMO you need more information.

But yes - there is sometimes strains of bacteria that is very bad and can kill fishes over a night - but you will normally see wounds, damaged or not existing fins and so on. I doubt it is a bacterial disease in this case.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Toxins certainly fit the scenario. So do Brook and Velvet. I don't think a month in QT would rule out velvet especially in wrasses with their thick slime coat.

I think ammonia is unlikely. I've found API ammonia test to be very reliable for detecting ammonia...by some reports its downfall is never showing zero even when ammonia is zero. I've not had that problem with it.

PS, ammonia is the only API test that I think is worthwhile.

Ammonia is a slow killer. It builds up in the tissue . A sudden rise in PH due to a water change may create that little more needed for an overdose. The day after ammonia NH3 may not be measured in the water column. Sufficient carrying capacity based on an effective nitrification capacity will prevent any of these problems to happen.
Also vodka over dosing and some products for battling cyano ( based on carbo hydrates) may cause sudden death due to a mix of several factors in combination with oxygen depletion , certainly when it comes to sensitive Anthias.
Making a troubleshooting is only possible if a system dairy is kept, an agenda containing daily observations, feeding, additives, medication, corrections, etc... and a follow up of the parameters. And even then a diagnoses can only be done by bringing the fish to a lab asap.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

I am leaning towards ammonia as well that's why I asked op the source of water.

 

[uutank]

I am leaning towards ammonia as well that's why I asked op the source of water.

I routinely check ammonia and other parameters. Never saw a rise as per my kit. You can see the pick of parameter I’ve put up the photo. Can there be a possibility that my test kit is wrong. If yes then what other test kit you guys suggest apart from API.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

In my personal experience API at lower level is not very reliable. Could it be possible that your Rodi is still passing chlorine or chloramine? Try changing the kit to red Sea or seachem

 

[RajV]

I routinely check ammonia and other parameters. Never saw a rise as per my kit. You can see the pick of parameter I’ve put up the photo. Can there be a possibility that my test kit is wrong. If yes then what other test kit you guys suggest apart from API.

Use seneye for reef @Seneye-CEO

 

[Lasse]

I´ m not sure it is an ammonia/ammoniac problem at all. All test build on the same principles as the one you mentioned (API) are known not to be accurate in the lower levels - they almost always show 0.2 - 0.25 ppm even if it is zero. Seachem ammonia alert is build on other principles - it only detect the toxic form - the ammonia gas (ammoniac or NH3). I have not tested that product but it could work better IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[uutank]

Use seneye for reef @Seneye-CEO

I don’t know if that product will be easily available in India though.