Why are some people anti-waterchanges?

[Reefkeepers Archive]

I’ll say this much… anyone who doubts a water change should try a 100% water change and observe their corals the next couple days! I’ve done this a few times with upgrades even my current display… I’ve never seen my lps so fluffy or the crazy pe my sticks showed that first week again.. I’ve slacked big time due to weather and and laziness but I’m gearing up for a large one here real soon.. the results speak for them selves.. smaller 10-30% help but the corals don’t respond like all new water.

A %100 water change isn't a good idea, do you dose alk/calcium/trace elements?

 

[nuxx Verified Sponsor]

I'm not anti water change, I'm just too lazy to do them frequently

Automate...

Did 5-10 gallons a day and the waste water would go into my frag/holding/coral QT tank...

 

[blaxsun]

Some of us are just inherently lazy and hate hauling buckets of water around.

 

[Troylee]

A %100 water change isn't a good idea, do you dose alk/calcium/trace elements?

Says who? Yes I dose alk, cal, mag… I don’t dose trace but there’s some in bacto balance so they say and I use that..

 

[Icryhard]

OK, but you do not know that they bind all toxins, or even any toxins present in a reef tank.

They might, or they might not.

correct. I might or might not die today as well, even though I live a healthy life and all the signs show me that I’m not in any danger whatsoever. There is a moment we must make a conclusion. unless it’s our job or we’re willing to pay money to investigate. I prefer to believe the company/companies which make this, may it be snake oil or not. I assume they did their work. I also assume and accept that active carbon does crazy stuff and should save me from all sorts of stuff if I wear a gas mask. I mean, it might or might not. However until the “might not” part, I’ll stick to what I’ve read, until someone can show me new sources which point out something new.

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Says who? Yes I dose alk, cal, mag… I don’t dose trace but there’s some in bacto balance so they say and I use that..

Says most of the reefkeeping community lol, the exception is if you do those %100 water changes once every 1-2 weeks, when you have all clean/new water it restarts the cycle and excess ammonia and nitrites build up, which is why you have to wait 6 months after setting up a new tank before you can add livestock, one of my friends has a nano reef that he does a %100 water change once or twice a week, only way to remove those toxins other than waiting, of course this isn't ideal for larger reef tanks and it can kill the biodiversity and is expensive

 

[ForrestGump]

Have they? Folks often state this, but it is untrue in in at least two different ways.

1. Open water is constantly flowing toward and over and through reefs. That is as much a water change on a natural reef as one a reefkeeper does in an aquarium.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24862071

"However, currents flowing over coralreef flats deliver not just nutrients but also organic carbon originating from the fore reef and offshore as particles of phytoplankton, zooplankton, microbes, and detritus and as dissolved carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins. W"

2. Even in the ocean as a whole, water and ions are constantly being added and removed by many different processes. Add these all together and they effective are doing water changes. Many ions in the ocean have half lives shorter than the time you mention, buy being added and removed constantly. Calcium, for example, has an average residence time in the whole ocean of less than a million years.

Water flowing over and through a reef is not a water change, it is simply movement of water from one place to another. We do that with power heads in our tanks. Dosing supplements to your tank can provide the nutrients to the organisms. You do not necessarily need to do a water change. Most people do water changes in order to remove toxins from the system, but if your bacteria and other microorganisms do that conversion for you a water change isn't necessary.
I can only speak from my own experience. I ran my reef tank for over two years without a single water change only dosing All4Reef (which is not long enough to say that it is the right way long term) It was a 180 gallon tank with 5 tangs, a pair of clowns, three anthias, two pygmy angels, a melanarus wrasse, mandarin, 6 chromis and a watchman goby. I also had both soft and hard corals that were all flourishing. I have no reason to think they would not still be doing so had I not shut it down for personal reasons.

 

[Treefer32]

correct. I might or might not die today as well, even though I live a healthy life and all the signs show me that I’m not in any danger whatsoever. There is a moment we must make a conclusion. unless it’s our job or we’re willing to pay money to investigate. I prefer to believe the company/companies which make this, may it be snake oil or not. I assume they did their work. I also assume and accept that active carbon does crazy stuff and should save me from all sorts of stuff if I wear a gas mask. I mean, it might or might not. However until the “might not” part, I’ll stick to what I’ve read, until someone can show me new sources which point out something new.

Great synopsis and I would add that the very core of science is not to prove something false, but to prove something new through trial and error. Many tests may lead to proving something previously true, false. But, In that art of discovery we prove something new to be true. That is at the core of learning and scientific study.

The counter point of this is the misnomer that what a company says to be true is true. I'll avoid naming company names for the art of discussion, but it is along the same cliche that "If it's on the internet it must be true." Or "If it said on TV it must be true."

There is what is proven true and there is the practical application of that truth and the lies are within the interpretation of the proof to apply to reality. Carbon removes a lot of toxins, this is a proven fact. Does it remove all toxins? No, because we have things like cuprisorb and other pads that filter out harsh metals.

I Had a friend that had a 125 gallon mixed reef with some culupera in the display, was a beautiful tank. Well taken care of. His toddler decided the fish needed feeding. She took a bag of dog food (small bag) and dumped it into the sump. Hours later the culupera had gone from decorative to completely sexual. In a matter of days and numerous water changes later the culupera took over everything.

I don't know what toxins are in dog food... But, I doubt carbon or cuprisorb would help with that. Nature took over and said we're going to devour this... Algae exploded to deal with the toxins.

Aside from anecdotes, there's a reason I have up to 150 gallons of RODI water on hand at any point in time. Emergency planning, I don't know when something will happen that's devastating, but having 150 gallons of spare water for my 340 gallon display gives me peace of mind. 75 gallons is fresh for top off, but can be quickly converted to salt water if needed in an emergency.

Water changes are the ultimate last resort option (and sometimes first response) to an emergency of unknown origin. It's a tool in the tool chest. I would also run carbon in an emergency. Not full proof but 2 positive responses if something goes wrong.

 

[FreshSaltyGuy]

This is still erroneous. I know Diana Walstad's method, but it works on the premise a light bioload and she still did waterchanges albeit less regularly than weekly.

I sure as hell wouldn't keep juvenile Discus in a Walstad aquarium and assume they would grow normally without stunting.

Moreover, nature is a large body of water with millions of gallons of water with multiple layers of filtration. And there are continuous waterchanges like you find in a river, stream, etc. The water is rarely static like it is in our aquariums.

You do know rivers and streams replenish water that has evaporated no remove water from oceans. Besides plants, sand/mud, rocks and corals what other layers of filtration are there? There is just a ton of all of those because of the amount of water in our oceans.

 

[Icryhard]

So their import/export is broken? It isn't the water change causing the issue. They are either not importing enough or are exporting way too much. Even weekly water changes at 25% still leaves 75% of the nutrients there.

Can't blame the water change if someone is running 15 filters stripping the water of everything. That is poor setup and understanding

The “import/export” you’re talking about here is the waterchange. “Can’t blame the waterchange when (…)”, actually, we can, since that is causing the import/export to become broken If you’re running your stuff so heavy that your waterchanges should be dialed down. the problem in the equation becomes you doing TOO MANY waterchanges. So either you dial down the waterchange, or strip the water less. You doing both creates the problem and creates your “import/export” problem.

 

[Reefer Matt Verified Media Partner]

This will be a fun thread to read in 3-5 years to see how it goes for some people.

 

[Subsea]

Water flowing over and through a reef is not a water change, it is simply movement of water from one place to another. We do that with power heads in our tanks. Dosing supplements to your tank can provide the nutrients to the organisms. You do not necessarily need to do a water change. Most people do water changes in order to remove toxins from the system, but if your bacteria and other microorganisms do that conversion for you a water change isn't necessary.
I can only speak from my own experience. I ran my reef tank for over two years without a single water change only dosing All4Reef (which is not long enough to say that it is the right way long term) It was a 180 gallon tank with 5 tangs, a pair of clowns, three anthias, two pygmy angels, a melanarus wrasse, mandarin, 6 chromis and a watchman goby. I also had both soft and hard corals that were all flourishing. I have no reason to think they would not still be doing so had I not shut it down for personal reasons.

Kudos to above post.

“Most people do water changes in order to remove toxins from the system, but if your bacteria and other microorganisms do that conversion for you, a water change isn't necessary.“

This is my Platinum Rule:

Recycle using microbial food web

 

[TWYOUNG]

Give me halides and give me water changes!!!
Trying to balance with ICP and trace mineral dosing to get colors like this hurts my brain. Salt has what corals need

Agree with water changes but I found halides and the chiller that went with them energy wasting and $$$$$

 

[TWYOUNG]

Every 2 weeks or max 3 weeks, clean out main filters, surface skimmers, UV , pipes , glass cleaning, I appreciate it afterwards... like a brand new aquriam

Curious how you clean out your pipes? Most of my hard plumbed system is impossible to get to.

 

[Rick's Reviews]

Curious how you clean out your pipes? Most of my hard plumbed system is impossible to get to.

just an example of one that's 1 meter long cost me £3.. this alone can clean out nearly 2 meters if I insert into either end of my pipes

 

[Subsea]

just an example of one that's 1 meter long cost me £3.. this alone can clean out nearly 2 meters if I insert into either end of my pipes

How do you know that you removed all or even some of the nasties without taking both ends of pipe loose and visually inspecting said nasties. How often do you do that maintenance protocol?

 

[rtparty]

The “import/export” you’re talking about here is the waterchange. “Can’t blame the waterchange when (…)”, actually, we can, since that is causing the import/export to become broken If you’re running your stuff so heavy that your waterchanges should be dialed down. the problem in the equation becomes you doing TOO MANY waterchanges. So either you dial down the waterchange, or strip the water less. You doing both creates the problem and creates your “import/export” problem.

You are far better off taking other forms of filtration off the tank or increasing your import than stopping the water change routine

 

[d2mini]

Says most of the reefkeeping community lol, the exception is if you do those %100 water changes once every 1-2 weeks, when you have all clean/new water it restarts the cycle and excess ammonia and nitrites build up, which is why you have to wait 6 months after setting up a new tank before you can add livestock, one of my friends has a nano reef that he does a %100 water change once or twice a week, only way to remove those toxins other than waiting, of course this isn't ideal for larger reef tanks and it can kill the biodiversity and is expensive

I may be mis-reading your post because it is a tiny bit confusing, so I will apologize upfront if that is the case.

If your friend is doing 100% water changes since day one on a fishbowl/vase/other unfiltered tank, then yes I suppose you are correct there. But for most of us here with sumps, filters, live rock, etc, you absolutely can do a 100% (or close to it) water change, as long as you match your parameters. The water itself doesn't contain any beneficial denitrifying bacteria. That is all on surfaces... rock, plumbing, sand, etc.

 

[Someshmuk]

It's eye opening to read through everyones experiences. I think that most people whom have lasting power (+5 years) are people whom truly love the hobby and are in a position to maintain the hobby and therefore an age marker on a tank is something to be proud of but not the right metric for success as a breakdown of a tank stems from a multivariant situation. I personally knew a guy who quit because the hobby became too much work and stress and he maintained beautiful SPS, LPS and softies.

As the collective experience and knowledge of hobbiest community grows, I believe that we will be moving to a more nuanced approach to water quality control with a reduction of water changes to a more approachable schedule. Even a few years ago, we had a paradigm shift from UNLS to low nutrient systems. And before that was going from metal halides to LEDs. (IMO i would love to try halides as anecdotal accounts seem to be overwhelmingly positive)

Personally, I don't think anyone has ran a true 0 water change tank but we're arguing semantics instead of intent.

The goal we should strive for is to reduce the amount of overhead in maintaining a reef tank so you can spend more time appreciating the hobby.

 

[Subsea]

I may be mis-reading your post because it is a tiny bit confusing, so I will apologize upfront if that is the case.

If your friend is doing 100% water changes since day one on a fishbowl/vase/other unfiltered tank, then yes I suppose you are correct there. But for most of us here with sumps, filters, live rock, etc, you absolutely can do a 100% (or close to it) water change, as long as you match your parameters. The water itself doesn't contain any beneficial denitrifying bacteria. That is all on surfaces... rock, plumbing, sand, etc.

“The water itself doesn't contain any beneficial denitrifying bacteria. That is all on surfaces... rock, plumbing, sand, etc.”

There are many other bacteria besides nitrogen fixation. Water is loaded with bacteria & micro inverts. Yes, rocks & substrate will reseed tank.