Why are some people anti-waterchanges?

[MnFish1]

I have thought about setting this up using 2 Versa pumps, one to pump water out of my sump and the other to pump water in daily with a versa controller unit.

the question I have for this, is on 350 gallon system (340 gallon display 75 gallon sump half full with rock displacement probably 350 total volume). Say 2 gallons daily, that's .57% per day = 17% monthly.

That still wouldn't replace the alk, calcium, mg, and trace elements consumed (by both macro algae in the ATS and the corals in the display). So the only advantage here is a less manual way to export water and replace with new in the hopes of reducing any other toxins / pollution that might be in the aging water. I think it'd be fun to do this just to say I have it. And it's a reasonable cost, the pumps around $500 or so. And I like the option to say, oh, today let's change out 10 gallons instead of 2 gallons. And to ensure my top off doensn't mess with things I'd have to have the export run at the same time as the import to ensure water levels stay the same. Outside of the "funness" of seeing this in operation, I'm not sure what it actually would get me from a husbandry perspective?

Given I have a lot of export mechanisms already. The only measurable thing that builds up now is phosphates, and I dose Phosphate-e at the rate of 5-10 ml 2-3 times a week manually and that keeps it in check.

here is a nice calculator that can tell you how effective water changes will be over time.

Effect of Water Changes Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the effect of repeated water changes on the concentration of a given substance.

www.hamzasreef.com

 

[cwerner]

I am another AWC truther. I do a 2% (actually more like 2.25%) daily AWC using my Hydros system. No hauling more 2 5-gallon buckets weighing 40-50 lbs each down a narrow flight of stairs while the dog tries tripping you on the way down and the wife gets mad about the salt water spilling on the floor and the children laughing and smearing the puddles all over....now it just goes down a tube into a drain in the basement and new saltwater gets pumped back in. No fuss, no mess, no worry and you only have to mix new water once every couple weeks or so.

 

[bakbay]

My fully packed SPS-dominant 150g cube will turn 3 years next month with zero WC. It’s flourishing fine and acros got good color and growth (except some some stubborn frags). I have not lost any fish / corals in the last 2 years! The first year was plagued with Dino’s since I started with dry rocks. Alk is between 8.5-9, Ca 500, Mg 1300. With 6 tangs, NO3 is 25 and PO4 is 1.2 — they are pigs, nori sheet once/day and fed pellets multiple times a day! I run a skimmer with recirculating CO2 scrubber for pH boost. Other than that, nothing else.

I understand the debate on both sides but what has worked for me for the last decade+ w/o doing any WC should last me the next decade and beyond. You can call me lazy, frugal, or whatever but I currently maintain 3 tanks + frag and don’t plan on doing any WCs for all of them. Two of my tanks have CaRx to maintain basic dosing and will add one to the small 60g soon.

Perhaps I’ve been lucky but I will continue this method unless things crash. Just sharing my experience. What has been working for me may not work for you & your tanks.

 

[The_Paradox]

Suppose you are dosing 10 ppm nitrate a day to keep your levels. Changing 1% daily would drive that to a whopping 10.1 ppm per day.

That's the "last thing" you'd want to have happen?

It’s not a huge change but my underlying question remains. Why? If we already covered changes will not remove or stop the rise of any toxin, and will not ever replenish macro or trace, what is the goal of a water change? I propose if there was some other test company’s could sell us they would.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It’s not a huge change but my underlying question remains. Why? If we already covered changes will not remove or stop the rise of any toxin, and will not ever replenish macro or trace, what is the goal of a water change? I propose if there was some other test company’s could sell us they would.

I did not agree to that. I explicitly think it does reduce toxins and showed a mathematical example (post 68 of this thread) of what it would do. At equilibrium, random toxin accumulation will be about 1/8th as much if you change 1% daily (30% monthly) compared to if you changed no water.

 

[The_Paradox]

I did not agree to that. I explicitly think it does reduce toxins and showed a mathematical example (post 68 of this thread) of what it would do. At equilibrium, random toxin accumulation will be about 1/8th as much if you change 1% daily (30% monthly) compared to if you changed no water.

8 months or 1 there will still be an inflection point. If there is a toxicity level both methods will eventually reach it unless there is a MOA that metabolizes, chelates, passivates, etc whatever mystery compound we are discussing.

 

[Treefer32]

here is a nice calculator that can tell you how effective water changes will be over time.

Effect of Water Changes Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the effect of repeated water changes on the concentration of a given substance.

www.hamzasreef.com

The calculator assumes Nitrate buildup if no water changes. I have no nitrate build up. Great idea for systems that don't export nitrates. But, my nitrates rarely fluctuate. I have tested as much as 3 weeks apart and got nearly the same reading.

Some of my last few tests:
6/21 - 6.7ppm
7/3 - 7.6 ppm
7/13 - 8.5 ppm
7/24 - 10.1 ppm
8/12 - 13.3
9/18 - 15.1

So, in 1 month Nitrates rose by 1.8ppm. That's .06 ppm per day.
I would also argue that between 10.1 and 15.1 is well within the margin of error of the Hanna High range test kit. The 10.1 could be between 8.5 and 12.5. The 13.3 could be between 11.3 and 15.3. The 15.1 could be between 13.3 and 17.3.

The biggest thing noted is there is a trend of values increasing over time. So, At this rate, I might want to do a 50% water change when Nitrates hit 20. Which is 4.9 ppm away which is another 3 months away. That puts me about end of December when I need to do a water change if I care about nitrates being over 20ppm.

Which, plays into my twice a year water changes. . .

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

8 months or 1 there will still be an inflection point. If there is a toxicity level both methods will eventually reach it unless there is a MOA that metabolizes, chelates, passivates, etc whatever mystery compound we are discussing.

Not true. The water change example hits a stable equilibrium where the amount exported = amount generated. Look at the graph and try the math yourself.

 

[jda]

For me, there are three types of no-water change people.

1. First - lazy. These will fail over time.
2. Second - like to outsmart others. These usually fail too since they are not smarter than nature or folks who have been doing this for a long time. Things can work for a while. Their enthusiasm wanes and so does their tank.
3. Third - those that just like to tinker and do things to their tanks. These can do well, but they work hard and often spend lots of money.

Nobody is truly no-water-change, or should not be. Emptying skimmer cups and other regular maintenance needs some. Even tried-and-true methods like DSR are truly no REGULAR water change and they will do them when they need to wether after a treatment or to just true things up again. You constantly see these folks just change a large amount of water if they cannot figure things out for one second - no hesitation. The smart ones know and value water changes, they just don't do them regularly.

I change water for three reasons:

1. I am lazy - they are easy to do.
2. I am cheap - I can change about 300 gallons of water, or more, for what a standard ICP test costs let alone all of the chemicals.
3. I don't know anything - people who want to do the maths about pollutants, toxins, etc. are exerting some sort of hubris, IMO, and focusing on small things. They don't really have the ability to know what is going on at all and there could be untold amounts of other things that need to come out of the water that they are not aware of. I know that if I change 20% of my water than 20% of anything bad is leaving the water column - period. Most of the rest of this seems to be backwards reefing where people have decided not to do water changes and are trying to find ways on the backend to justify it. I don't want to miss the big picture by reefing backwards.

 

[jda]

The other complete hubris in some of the no-anything thinking that time does not matter. Everybody can quit changing water for a few months or a year and be fine. You can even probably go two years. Show me 5 years of no water change tanks. Anybody? Nobody can. These do not exist.

It is kinda like how I still feel good a month after not running, but that one year mark is a different story. Going 20k miles and two years without an oil change - no problem, but talk to me after 5 years. Everybody can think of a million false equivalencies in this vein.

You have all kinds of people on here with the "I haven't changed water in six months and everything looks great!" So what. Never mattered. More small thinking. Check back in in two years if you still did not change any water, which is not likely even for some crazy reason like treating for flatworms. Then, call me again at 5 years.

I guess that I should add a fourth reason that I change water... everybody who has long-term success has done some. Everybody. Even those that do not do them regularly do them if not just to reset. However, if there was value in a reset, then how dumb do you have to be to conclude that there is not value otherwise?

 

[jda]

Here we go - three posts in a row...

If people just represented what is happening for what it really is, this discussion would be so much easier. Just describe the way that you do limited water changes. Don't say no water changes unless you are looking for attention and stuff since this is just divisive and not accurate.

It could be easy just to say - supplement with ICP and elements and then reset every X months with 50% water change. ...or supplement by hand until something bad happens then I do 50% water change... or I change 75% of my water when i have to treat for gill flukes... or whatever.

 

[Treefer32]

For me, there are three types of no-water change people.

1. First - lazy. These will fail over time.
2. Second - like to outsmart others. These usually fail too since they are not smarter than nature or folks who have been doing this for a long time. Things can work for a while. Their enthusiasm wanes and so does their tank.
3. Third - those that just like to tinker and do things to their tanks. These can do well, but they work hard and often spend lots of money.

Nobody is truly no-water-change, or should not be. Emptying skimmer cups and other regular maintenance needs some. Even tried-and-true methods like DSR are truly no REGULAR water change and they will do them when they need to wether after a treatment or to just true things up again. You constantly see these folks just change a large amount of water if they cannot figure things out for one second - no hesitation. The smart ones know and value water changes, they just don't do them regularly.

I change water for three reasons:

1. I am lazy - they are easy to do.
2. I am cheap - I can change about 300 gallons of water, or more, for what a standard ICP test costs let alone all of the chemicals.
3. I don't know anything - people who want to do the maths about pollutants, toxins, etc. are exerting some sort of hubris, IMO, and focusing on small things. They don't really have the ability to know what is going on at all and there could be untold amounts of other things that need to come out of the water that they are not aware of. I know that if I change 20% of my water than 20% of anything bad is leaving the water column - period. Most of the rest of this seems to be backwards reefing where people have decided not to do water changes and are trying to find ways on the backend to justify it. I don't want to miss the big picture by reefing backwards.

I don't take it personally, at the same time these are some strong generalizations! I have more money than I care to admit in livestock that I care about deeply! I am passionate about the hobby and the slice of ocean I have. I even have a water change / mixing station that allows me to have 75 gallons of salt water pre mixed and another 75 gallon drum filled with fresh water so I can do a 50% emergency change if needed. I also have a second of my $500 return pump, mounted to my water change station, in case my primary return pump dies on me. (Redundancy is key! )

I have my return plumbing setup to a floor drain so I can open a valve and remove the 25 or so gallons from my sump simply using my return pump as a water change methodology. So, in under 5 minutes I could have 25 gallons out of 350 changed. I could do this daily or weekly.

I agree it's not hard, and it's not laziness. At the size and scale what is my goal for changing salt water? I do larger ones a couple times a year to refresh the salt water in general and reset the nitrates slowly accumulating. So, I am a pro water changer, just believe that once things are stabilized, frequent water changes aren't necessary and may be a complete waste of money, water, and time, as well as water filters!

I spend 2 hours a week cleaning the glass, I feed by hand twice a day, I manually dose things weekly, as well as have auto dosers setup. I do an ICP test once a year to make sure something stupid hasn't happened like a screw fell in the sump, or some detectable toxin entered the water, that a water change wouldn't help with anyways. I don't test for trace elements, I manually dose the suggested dose for my volume of water once per week. I test alk and Phosphates weekly, Nitrates I test every 2-4 weeks. I replace my T5 bulbs annually, I clean my ATS every 6-8 days.

As it is, I run out of time and energy to do the maintenance I do. It's not about laziness as it is about me not wanting a second or third job. I want to spend more time enjoying the hobby than maintaining and right now even without water changes I spend more time maintaining than enjoying. Doing more water changes wouldn't change that. I would still need to clean my glass, I would still need to clean the algae out of the ATS, I would still need to maintain the skimmer, pumps, lights, and do water tests. I would still need to maintain the dosers and dosing regimen of trace elements. A 20% water change means I'm only adding back 20% of the trace elements the system needs.

 

[MnFish1]

I understand that stability is an issue. I think for huge farm systems. It makes sense to focus on dosing and not water changes.
Especially since they are always removing water from the system when bagging corals and moving things around.

At home aquariums probably do best with regular water change, the key term regular. That means that to maintain stability you have to regularly change

Huge farms have mostly - input of actual ocean water - which is the same as water changes - no?

 

[MnFish1]

The calculator assumes Nitrate buildup if no water changes. I have no nitrate build up. Great idea for systems that don't export nitrates. But, my nitrates rarely fluctuate. I have tested as much as 3 weeks apart and got nearly the same reading.

Some of my last few tests:
6/21 - 6.7ppm
7/3 - 7.6 ppm
7/13 - 8.5 ppm
7/24 - 10.1 ppm
8/12 - 13.3
9/18 - 15.1

So, in 1 month Nitrates rose by 1.8ppm. That's .06 ppm per day.
I would also argue that between 10.1 and 15.1 is well within the margin of error of the Hanna High range test kit. The 10.1 could be between 8.5 and 12.5. The 13.3 could be between 11.3 and 15.3. The 15.1 could be between 13.3 and 17.3.

The biggest thing noted is there is a trend of values increasing over time. So, At this rate, I might want to do a 50% water change when Nitrates hit 20. Which is 4.9 ppm away which is another 3 months away. That puts me about end of December when I need to do a water change if I care about nitrates being over 20ppm.

Which, plays into my twice a year water changes. . .

Well - then one has to consider your measurements - From June to September - with your measurements - you have a 2-3x nitrate increase. So - I'm not sure where you get that statement

 

[jda]

I don't take it personally, at the same time these are some strong generalizations!

Since you do water changes, you don't really fit into what I typed, right?

I thought of a fourth type of person who is anti-water change... people selling products who have convinced other people so that they can sell products. The manufacturers and their fanboys create a divisive cult-like culture online and people love that kind of stuff nowadays to feel part of something.

 

[Reefer Matt Verified Media Partner]

Since you do water changes, you don't really fit into what I typed, right?

I thought of a fourth type of person who is anti-water change... people selling products who have convinced other people so that they can sell products. The manufacturers and their fanboys create a divisive cult-like culture online and people love that kind of stuff nowadays to feel part of something.

That also applies to a lot more than water changes. It seems like everyone wants to be sponsored.

 

[Treefer32]

Since you do water changes, you don't really fit into what I typed, right?

I thought of a fourth type of person who is anti-water change... people selling products who have convinced other people so that they can sell products. The manufacturers and their fanboys create a divisive cult-like culture online and people love that kind of stuff nowadays to feel part of something.

Ha, yeah, the only thing I purchase to avoid water changes is Lanthinum Chloride, and for now, since I use such a small amount I pay the premium of using the "Phosphate-e" branded LC. I could go to a pool supply store and get a lifetime supply but, I don't need a lifetime supply.

I guess the twice a year water changes are water changes. What is meant by no water changes. If you mean no water changes ever, period. I don't think that's possible in a closed box. The ocean has natural ways of exporting toxins. In our small closed boxes, I do agree at some point water does need to be changed out.

 

[liddojunior]

Huge farms have mostly - input of actual ocean water - which is the same as water changes - no?

I mean coral farms in the US. Like WWC , UC , Tidal gardens, etc.

They don’t use ocean water. They make their water from salt mix.

The farms in Indo that mariculture are different. They do have tanks that are in warehouses but it’s next to the ocean and they just pump in and out ocean water

 

[aquakj]

Im noticing a lot of ppl saying they don’t do water changes anymore and have amazing looking tanks, personally I went from weekly water changes to only when I have time, due to my parameters remaining the same throughout a month and half and I do about 10 gallons only on a 75 gallon reef

 

[MnFish1]

I mean coral farms in the US. Like WWC , UC , Tidal gardens, etc.

They don’t use ocean water. They make their water from salt mix.

The farms in Indo that mariculture are different. They do have tanks that are in warehouses but it’s next to the ocean and they just pump in and out ocean water

I was talking more of aquariums on the coast - as well as coral farms. Perhaps there is a large reef - which uses no water change methods - I have yet to see it - without ocean water