Why do you do water changes?

[Ace25]

Well, I think I found an answer to where some phosphates come from. I tested both B-Ionic Alk as well as BRS alk, BOTH pegged my meter by flashing 0.00 (when a reading is really 0.00 it doesn't flash), which tops out at 2.5 phosphates, so in straight form they both contain more than 2.5 phosphates per 10ml IF my tests are to be believed (which I am still not 100% comfortable with the results, but the reagents did dissolve properly in the 2 part tests, unlike the ESV Salt 2 part). In comparison, when I thaw 1 cube of mysis in RO/DI water and filter the water through a sock and test for phosphates I would get around 1.0 phosphates from soaking food in 1 cup of water. Calcium on both came in really low for phosphates, .01 for B-Ionic, like my other test, and 0.00 for BRS Calcium. I didn't take pictures of those tests because it is hard to take a picture of flashing 0.00, but if anyone must have proof I can redo the test and take a short video showing the meter flashing.

I just mixed up a fresh batch of Reef Crystals salt, results surprised me, but in a good way.

Reef Crystals Phosphate test results:

Compared to my test results for ESV B-Ionic salt:

Please also realize I am testing a very small amount of liquid, if you compare something like my food phosphate results and dump that into a 100G the added phosphates are very negligible. It only seems like high phosphates due to the small volume of water it is in. The Alkalinity tests I have done, IF they are to be believed, is something that is actually very concerning to me.

It looks like I owe Scuba George and Reefkeeper10 an apology, it does appear they were right in the fact that supplements (alkalinity) does seem to introduce quite a lot of phosphates. How much it truly adds to a system will vary with dosing, but regardless of the amount, it does appear anytime you dose Alkalinity (unless other products like Kent don't contain phosphates) you seem to be introducing orthophosphates into the water (I understand there are other phosphates and my test only tests for 1 type).

 

[Chameleon]

also as far as I know there is no one on reef2reef that owns a lab or is a scientist.

i am a scientist why do you think i use lab grade calcium hydroxide (kalk) not kidding...and sometimes I test my phosphates in my lab with actual calibration curves

 

[Ace25]

One more test, basically to prove B-Ionic comes in 3 Part dosing, not just 2 part. Here is the results from the 3rd part, Magnesium. It appears both Alk and Mg add phosphates while Calcium does not, at least from my admittedly non scientific tests. I think I am done with Phosphate testing for today unless someone can come up with a different method to testing that they think would be more accurate.

 

[shred5]

Wow you really are unreal .... Bionic is sold as two part the magnesium is sold separately..

Here is their product list right from them:http://www.esvco.com/esvcoproducts.pdf

I wonder if the regiments are just having a reaction or its the way the photometer sees the liquid. I would email ESV to find out. If there really is phosphate in there maybe they had some batch problems with their purification system for the water that is added and you got a bad batch. If this truly has phosphates in it I would really think they have a problem.

 

[Trex]

Yeah, I use all 3 products, and consider it 2 part, and Mag, and never 3 part.

 

[thewackyreefer]

Wow you really are unreal .... Bionic is sold as two part the magnesium is sold separately..

Here is their product list right from them:http://www.esvco.com/esvcoproducts.pdf

I wonder if the regiments are just having a reaction or its the way the photometer sees the liquid. I would email ESV to find out. If there really is phosphate in there maybe they had some batch problems with their purification system for the water that is added and you got a bad batch. If this truly has phosphates in it I would really think they have a problem.

Way to make this personal. As an R2R guide shouldn't you be encouraging productive conversation rather than singling out one member who is providing proof to back up what he says and had the balls to admit when he was incorrect?

 

[Ace25]

ok, we are getting into semantics over this. I consider all 3 of the major elements a "part" and the normal 3 things one would dose would be Alk/Ca/Mg. It really doesn't matter what you call it, whether it be 3 part or 2 part and mag, it still means the same thing. If you want to get down to it, they are all 1 part in their own way, you can dose any one of them by themselves as needed. ESV makes all 3 parts to a dosing regiment, that is all I am saying here. They don't just make the Alk and Ca supplements. Can we move on to more productive things now?

 

[Scuba George]

No worries ace your alright in my book


I need gills @_@

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Simple questions please simple answers.

Does BRS MG contain phosphates ?

Does BRS Calcium contain phosphates ?

Does BRS Kalk contain phosphates ?

 

[Young Frankenstein]

No water changes for 8 months video.

[video=youtube;eVl17Crb6W4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVl17Crb6W4&feature=b-vrec[/video]

 

[Young Frankenstein]

SPS reef growth gone wild! - YouTube

 

[Ace25]

Simple questions please simple answers.

Does BRS MG contain phosphates ?

Does BRS Calcium contain phosphates ?

Does BRS Kalk contain phosphates ?

#1, I can't test, I don't have any BRS Mag on hand. I can dissolve some ESV Mag from the saltwater kit in some water and test that if you want, not sure how close the results would be to BRS but I suspect they should be pretty similar since it is just the dry mag component. I also have Kent Tech-M.
#2, no, BRS Ca doesn't appear to contain any noticeable amounts of orthophosphates.
#3, no, BRS Kalk does not appear to contain phosphates unless it comes from the source water used to mix it.

I can take pictures/videos of 2 and 3 if you want proof, although my BRS Calcium is in a gallon pump jug I bought from BRS so you would have to take my word on it anyway. I can show you a picture of the packets they came in. LOL.

 

[Scuba George]

Frankenstein read post # 81


I need gills @_@

 

[saltwaternoob]

Here is a good article on phosphates in popular food.
Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

 

[saltwaternoob]

SPS reef growth gone wild! - YouTube

Nice tank do you use a ATS also, I skimmed most of the thread and must have missed it.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

#1, I can't test, I don't have any BRS Mag on hand. I can dissolve some ESV Mag from the saltwater kit in some water and test that if you want, not sure how close the results would be to BRS but I suspect they should be pretty similar since it is just the dry mag component. I also have Kent Tech-M.
#2, no, BRS Ca doesn't appear to contain any noticeable amounts of orthophosphates.
#3, no, BRS Kalk does not appear to contain phosphates unless it comes from the source water used to mix it.

I can take pictures/videos of 2 and 3 if you want proof, although my BRS Calcium is in a gallon pump jug I bought from BRS so you would have to take my word on it anyway. I can show you a picture of the packets they came in. LOL.

LOL we are on the same page, I also use BRS ever since they opened up .....but you never know Thanks I am with you my friend. Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan. In case we get defeated by the "water changers" I am with you till the very END.:nerd:

 

[Trex]

Why does there have to be a winner and/or a loser?
Shouldn't it just be what works best for each person's take ?

Maybe I have been in this hobby too long, but I stopped looking at "defeating" someone's way to running their tank as a good thing.

 

[Ace25]

I agree, this isn't about trying to convert anyone away from doing what they feel works best for their tank and certainly no "winner or loser" in this type of topic. I am pretty sure he meant that in a joking way because anytime someone dares mention running a tank without doing water changes 99% of the time, no matter what forum it is, they get flamed bad for even saying something like that. I have got more PMs from this thread in support of my methods from people not wanting to post publicly because of the fear of being chastised for it, which I understand. Some people don't want to jump into a controversy but still want to offer support on one side of the topic.

I hope people understand I have no agenda to try and tell anyone how to run their tank, nor am I claiming any of the testing I do is to be taken as reliable in the results. I do think Alk does introduce some phosphates, but I don't believe the high numbers I get on my test. I think my testing has potential to make people think there are bigger problems than actually exist so I want to be clear on that, don't take my testing results as proof of anything, take it for what it is, a preliminary home test that is almost guaranteed to NOT be accurate. Like you, I have been in the hobby long enough to know there are many different ways to successfully run a reef tank and for the vast majority of people that includes doing regular water changes, and that is great and there is nothing wrong with that at all, actually for the most part there is everything right by doing that. For a few of us that are brave and feel we have enough experience under our belts to experiment and try to run a tank with little to no water changes, great as well.