Wierd New Fish Deaths...

[dburt520]

I am having a somewhat odd issue going on in my tank.

Quick background - tank is a 200g system that is 8 months old, started with BRS pukani (cured in my garage for almost a full year before tank was up and running) and live sand.

I brought 3 Fish from my previous tank, 2 clowns and a blue hippo.

I purchased a pair of yellow watchman and a long nose hawkfish between the 2-3 month mark. All of those Fish are doing awesome, eat well, personalites are still great, active swimmers etc.

I have since tried to add a fat/healthy/eating well Powder Blue, A small tomini tang, lyretail anthias trio, a pair of ORA red mandarins, a purple firefish and a Leapord wrasse over the next 6 months. all of which didn't make it more than 3 weeks. My snails and inverts are doing great and my sps dominate tank is thriving. The fish were added 1 or 2 at a time a few weeks apart (added powder blue, it died in 8 days, waited a couple weeks, then added the tomini, lasted about 7 or 8 days, lyretail trio was added a few weeks later and they were doing well for a month, so I added the purple fire fish, which lasted about 4 days etc.

The fish show no signs of any disease what so ever - full coloration, breathing, eating, not lethargic, not swimming oddly or any of the other common things you would see with a fish illness. The don't flash, don't have spots, don't swim into currents, no wierd markings of any kind.

What's makes this odd is all of the fish were purchased from the same store (very reputable store with high praise amongst many local refers and clubs).

Even more odd is my original 6 Fish are perfectly fine, unaffected by anything, and as healthy today as the day I got them.

As for tank parameters;
Alk 8.1-8.3 (check daily)
Ca: 435-440
Po4: 0 (which I would like to raise by adding another Fish or two...)
No3: 0 (which I would like to raise by adding another Fish or two...)
Temp : 77.8 - 78.3
Ph: 7.7 - 8.1 (could this be my issue?)

I've ran a poly filter for contaminants, came back clear, I've ran carbon off and on thinking some sort of toxin was in my tank, still have issues, I've waited a month before adding anything only to have new fish die at the 4-8 day mark... I'm stumped.

I've spoken to several local stores and all have suggested potentially cyanide poisoning! Is that even possible today with the laws and regulations against collecting with cyanide?

I am at a loss, any suggestions are helpful at this point.

 

[DLHDesign]

Are you doing any sort of quarantine (QT)? If not, what sort of acclimation process are you doing?

#reefsquad

 

[dburt520]

I, unfortunately do not do any kind of QT (I know, bad hobbiest... but ive been lucky so far - up to this point). I went 7 years of reefing and had 1 fish death (diamond goby jumped), and now 9 in 5 months.

As for acclimation - I float the bag to get temp equal, open bag, check salinity, and if equal grab fish and put it in tank (salinity has always matched my tank as I have purchased all fish from the same store).

 

[DLHDesign]

My guesses (and that's all they are - guesses; and in no particular order):
1) There's something in the tank (disease) that your existing fish have acclimated to that new fish have trouble with. No idea what this could be, but here's a list of symptoms you might want to scan through to see if anything jumps out. I know that you said that everything seems normal, but perhaps there's something familiar that didn't seem odd at the time...
2) There's something (chemical) in the tank that came on slowly, allowing the existing fish to acclimate, but new fish struggle with. I'm wondering if there's rust or something near/in the tank from something that was added after the 2-3 month mark.
3) Perhaps they aren't getting enough food with the competition in the tank? You've said they were eating, so not really sure how to jive that...

Do you happen to have any photos of the fish after (or just before) they've died? Perhaps some of the trained eyes here on R2R (not me!) can spot something that isn't obvious...

 

[Sabellafella]

I am having a somewhat odd issue going on in my tank.

Quick background - tank is a 200g system that is 8 months old, started with BRS pukani (cured in my garage for almost a full year before tank was up and running) and live sand.

I brought 3 Fish from my previous tank, 2 clowns and a blue hippo.

I purchased a pair of yellow watchman and a long nose hawkfish between the 2-3 month mark. All of those Fish are doing awesome, eat well, personalites are still great, active swimmers etc.

I have since tried to add a fat/healthy/eating well Powder Blue, A small tomini tang, lyretail anthias trio, a pair of ORA red mandarins, a purple firefish and a Leapord wrasse over the next 6 months. all of which didn't make it more than 3 weeks. My snails and inverts are doing great and my sps dominate tank is thriving. The fish were added 1 or 2 at a time a few weeks apart (added powder blue, it died in 8 days, waited a couple weeks, then added the tomini, lasted about 7 or 8 days, lyretail trio was added a few weeks later and they were doing well for a month, so I added the purple fire fish, which lasted about 4 days etc.

The fish show no signs of any disease what so ever - full coloration, breathing, eating, not lethargic, not swimming oddly or any of the other common things you would see with a fish illness. The don't flash, don't have spots, don't swim into currents, no wierd markings of any kind.

What's makes this odd is all of the fish were purchased from the same store (very reputable store with high praise amongst many local refers and clubs).

Even more odd is my original 6 Fish are perfectly fine, unaffected by anything, and as healthy today as the day I got them.

As for tank parameters;
Alk 8.1-8.3 (check daily)
Ca: 435-440
Po4: 0 (which I would like to raise by adding another Fish or two...)
No3: 0 (which I would like to raise by adding another Fish or two...)
Temp : 77.8 - 78.3
Ph: 7.7 - 8.1 (could this be my issue?)

I've ran a poly filter for contaminants, came back clear, I've ran carbon off and on thinking some sort of toxin was in my tank, still have issues, I've waited a month before adding anything only to have new fish die at the 4-8 day mark... I'm stumped.

I've spoken to several local stores and all have suggested potentially cyanide poisoning! Is that even possible today with the laws and regulations against collecting with cyanide?

I am at a loss, any suggestions are helpful at this point.

Oh wow, very mind boggling. Have to try and narrow it down, but cyanide certainly can be the cause. All the new fish have passed around the same time after they were added. Could possibly be ammonia but then again youd see signs. Could be oxygen but again youd see signs in your other fish. Could be a parasite internal and external that can slip through the cracks. Could be the way you acclimated them. Just try to get a qt up, so you can treat incommers. Or atleast qt them at the store, and make sure theyre nice and healthy before you take them home. Lets see what others can point out. Hope everything turns out ok bud

 

[scardall]

I, unfortunately do not do any kind of QT (I know, bad hobbiest... but ive been lucky so far - up to this point). I went 7 years of reefing and had 1 fish death (diamond goby jumped), and now 9 in 5 months.

As for acclimation - I float the bag to get temp equal, open bag, check salinity, and if equal grab fish and put it in tank (salinity has always matched my tank as I have purchased all fish from the same store).

Just a recommendation for acclimation. (2nd) Add the drip method (20min. minimum) to this ( 1st)I float the bag to get temp equal ( 20 minutes) , open bag, check salinity)

As to cyanide poising--If a fish eats well but is getting thinner in the stomach area, that is a sign of poising. Google it. In general some fish can last up to a month.

 

[dburt520]

I was doing the drip acclimation, however the more I read, I felt like (and many many others...) that it was doing more harm than good. Ya, it is weird that they have all died right around the same time, with the exception of the Lyretails.

I test my tank daily (although not for Ammonia or nitrite), however I have been testing that since the fish deaths to monitor it. Always 0 for both of course.

DLHDesign, unfortunately no pictures - It is one of those things that as the days go by and fish pass, I didn't really step back and look at how many it truly was, very stupid of me to let it go this far, but I kept thinking it was just that 1 fish, onto the next, same thought etc.

There is no rust, or metal anywhere near my tank. I build everything from the ground up and that was one of my main priorities - keeping metals/impurities as far away as possible. Closest thing to metal would be the T5 reflectors in my T5 retro kit, but they are as shiny as the day I installed them, so I wouldn't suspect and corrosion or rust.

I read through that list, and none of the fish have every shown any of those signs, which is what makes this weird. As I mentioned, ive ran carbon and the poly filter hoping it would pick something up, some kind of containment to help me point in a direction to figure it out, but nothing...

Ive never noticed any shrinking bellies, however all but 1 were small fish, so unless it was extremely noticeable I am not sure that is something I would see. I have found all fish dead, out in the open laying on sand bed.


*** I also completely forgot to mention this - maybe help someone point me in the right direction ***

The leopard wrasse was out all day like normal, ate at feeding time, I literally went to back room and came back to tank 5 minutes later and found him on sand bed in middle of the tank having what looked to be a seizure. I watched for a few moments thinking he was trying to bury in the sand for the night, however a couple minutes later he was 100% stiff/dead.

 

[rizorido]

You might want a strong UV to kill any potential parasites. Maybe your old fish have developed some kind of immunity over time ...

 

[eatbreakfast]

Despite laws against it, there are some locations that collect with cyanide, however, even in locations where it is still used mandarins, firefish, and leopard wrasses are not collected this way.

Sometimes velvet can come in and have very few symptoms.

Stray current would also be something to look into.

 

[Brew12]

If it hasn't already been said, your pH is fine for fish. That shouldn't be your problem.

I agree with those who think you have a disease in your tank that came from your old system. A fish can build up an "immunity" to both ich and velvet. This immune response will keep the parasite from feeding properly and greatly reducing the rate at which it can reproduce. However, if you add a fish without the immunity, all it takes is a single healthy generation of velvet to reach the numbers needed to kill a fish. Since these are very young fish that have just gone through the stress of shipping I wouldn't be surprised if it was velvet and that it did enough gill damage quickly enough to not show other symptoms.
If you had a fish that lasted less than 3 days or more than 3 weeks it would work against this theory.

 

[4FordFamily]

That sounds exactly like the strain of velvet I had a couple years ago. I could never figure out what it was until eventually one chevron tang I added showed the first classic velvet symptoms (that I could recognize).

Same story line essentially. Fine one day, next day hiding from light being slightly more cryptic, next day not eating and hiding more, then death the following day. Occasionally, angels would lose some blotchy color.

 

[dburt520]

The lyretail lasted more than 3 weeks, however were not the first fish to die. my wife seems to think that the powder blue and tomini also lasted about a month, and all 5 of those Fish were in the tank at the same time. If I added a fish with velvet after the initial 6, wouldnt at least one of my first 6 fish be affected?


Edit: indeed my wife is correct, found a pic of the tank with the hippo, hawkfish, clowns, lyretails, tomini and powder blue.

Stray voltage is something that ive thought about, but I can't detect anything with a volt meter, have never been shocked when my hand went into tank so I ruled that out as well.

 

[Brew12]

The lyretail lasted more than 3 weeks, however were not the first fish to die. my wife seems to think that the powder blue and tomini also lasted about a month, and all 5 of those Fish were in the tank at the same time. If I added a fish with velvet after the initial 6, wouldnt at least one of my first 6 fish be affected?


Edit: indeed my wife is correct, found a pic of the tank with the hippo, hawkfish, clowns, lyretails, tomini and powder blue.

Stray voltage is something that ive thought about, but I can't detect anything with a volt meter, have never been shocked when my hand went into tank so I ruled that out as well.

I think your original 6 fish may all be carriers of velvet and have an immunity.

I didn't realize you added a bunch at the same time. That may have diluted the impact and spread out the velvet between enough fish it could have taken an extra generation or 2. Very odd though.

I agree that stray voltage would be very unlikely.

 

[dburt520]

Sorry, maybe I mistyped, only 1 or 2/3 If paired or trio were added at a time.

Here is a quick time lime of how I can remember it:

Tank start up: 2 clowns, 1 hippo (all still living)
month 2: watchman goby pair
Month 3: hawkfish - lyretails (separated by a couple weeks)
Month 4: powder blue - tomini (separated by a couple weeks), powder blue died shortly after tomini was added - tomini died days after the powder blue
Month 5: did nothing as far as Fish were concerned
Month 6: Red Mandarin pair added - one died in 4 days, few weeks later the first lyretail died, then the second mandarin died.
Month 7: second lyretail died, followed by third a few days later
Month 8: thanks giving weekend - purple fire Fish and leapord wrasse added - purchased on black Friday, we're both dead by Monday.

Some of this time line (months 1-4) is based off of tank pictures, so the lyretails did last a couple of months, other that that the deaths were relatively quick.

 

[Brew12]

Sorry, maybe I mistyped, only 1 or 2/3 If paired or trio were added at a time.

Here is a quick time lime of how I can remember it:

Tank start up: 2 clowns, 1 hippo (all still living)
month 2: watchman goby pair
Month 3: hawkfish - lyretails (separated by a couple weeks)
Month 4: powder blue - tomini (separated by a couple weeks), powder blue died shortly after tomini was added - tomini died days after the powder blue
Month 5: did nothing as far as Fish were concerned
Month 6: Red Mandarin pair added - one died in 4 days, few weeks later the first lyretail died, then the second mandarin died.
Month 7: second lyretail died, followed by third a few days later
Month 8: thanks giving weekend - purple fire Fish and leapord wrasse added - purchased on black Friday, we're both dead by Monday.

Some of this time line (months 1-4) is based off of tank pictures, so the lyretails did last a couple of months, other that that the deaths were relatively quick.

That timeline is interesting. Definitely doesn't fit what I was expecting.

 

[eatbreakfast]

With all the original fish being unscathed by all of this, it does lean toward something that they are resistant to and that the new fish are not.

 

[dburt520]

Don't worry Brew12, you're definitely not the first to be confused over this whole thing.

I guess, my question at this point is what should I do? Should I remove my fish and QT? Should I wait it out and try another fish, and if it passes try the instant fresh water dip (I read that in another post almost identical to mine), should I just be content with the 6 fish in my tank?

If it is indeed a disease of some sort I would obviously like to QT the fish that are in my tank (although, catching 3 of them might be nearly impossible). If they are resistant to it, does that mean that if I wait the 6 weeks (appears to be the recommended waiting period for velvet) to add a new fish that it will be rid of my tank? I am not sure if resistant to it means they just know how to deal with it when they get it, or the disease just doesn't attach to that fish.

 

[DLHDesign]

If they are resistant to it, does that mean that if I wait the 6 weeks (appears to be the recommended waiting period for velvet) to add a new fish that it will be rid of my tank? I am not sure if resistant to it means they just know how to deal with it when they get it, or the disease just doesn't attach to that fish.

The former; they know how to deal with it. So, unfortunately, leaving them in would not clear the tank. The existing fish are (if the theory holds) resistant to it, but can still be carriers of just enough of the strain to keep it alive, if not flourishing. To rid the tank, you would have to get all 6 fish out into a QT and hold them there, with the DT empty (fallow), for 6 weeks, yeah.

 

[justingraham]

I would say ur original fish are ammune and the new ones coming in can not handle the disease.
If u can get the fish out and qt I think that would be ur best bet
Sorry for all ur losses

 

[Brew12]

Don't worry Brew12, you're definitely not the first to be confused over this whole thing.

I guess, my question at this point is what should I do? Should I remove my fish and QT? Should I wait it out and try another fish, and if it passes try the instant fresh water dip (I read that in another post almost identical to mine), should I just be content with the 6 fish in my tank?

If it is indeed a disease of some sort I would obviously like to QT the fish that are in my tank (although, catching 3 of them might be nearly impossible). If they are resistant to it, does that mean that if I wait the 6 weeks (appears to be the recommended waiting period for velvet) to add a new fish that it will be rid of my tank? I am not sure if resistant to it means they just know how to deal with it when they get it, or the disease just doesn't attach to that fish.

Unless you can confirm it is velvet (which would be hard to do) you may want to consider going the full 76 days on the off chance it is ich. After all you have gone through so far I hate to see you stop short because the issue wasn't diagnosed properly.

Another option would be to get another fish and put it through proper QT procedures. If a fish makes it through your QT for 30 days and still passes quickly in your DT that would confirm a DT problem. It would be even better if you could get a scrape from the gills of a passed fish to check for parasites under a microscope. I just hate subjecting another fish to a potential disease in your DT. I think if it were my tank, I would do a 76 day fallow period while treating the remaining fish with copper and prazi in a QT.

One thing to keep in mind is that if there is a disease immunity with your original fish the stress from moving them into a QT could break down their immunity and make them subject to whatever the root issue is. Very important to have a good mix of antibiotics and copper on hand before putting them in the QT.