Wierd New Fish Deaths...

[saltyfilmfolks]

Were the fish in copper at the LFS?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

could break down their immunity and make them subject to whatever the root issue is.

I ask because of this. I do a different qt now for copper treated fish.(besides not buying them). As i assume its generally poorly done.

 

[dburt520]

The LFS does NOT run copper in his systems. He has a QT/HT room set up so if a fish shows a sign while in his displays he takes them to a back room for treatment.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The LFS does NOT run copper in his systems. He has a QT/HT room set up so if a fish shows a sign while in his displays he takes them to a back room for treatment.

Wish I lived closer to THEM!

 

[dburt520]

Well, I don't know if he is feeding me a line of BS, but he says they try to run around a 92-95% survival rate of all new fish in the store and he says he is on track with that for the year.

I know many other refers with fish from his store that a very fat and healthy, so I don't think it's the store, I think if it is anything it is in my tank.

 

[dburt520]

I think the approach I am going to take for now is to just let the tank go until after the holidays. While I don't have a lot of fish, 3 of the 6 I do have will be virtually impossible to catch without tearing my entire tank apart, which I am not prepared to do right now.

I will try another known hardy fish after the first of the year and update then.

I just spoke to the LFS and he is actually going to be ordering a scope anyday. He is wanting to set up a small lab to help with weird issues like this - so if I do lose another fish, at least I may have access to something that will give me a true answer!

Thank you all for the help, really appreciate it.

 

[Brew12]

The LFS does NOT run copper in his systems

It is pretty sad how many places do run low levels of copper in their system to make their fish appear healthy.
I learned this the hard way when I added Prime to a container in which I was acclimating firefish. Did not end well. :mad:

He has a QT/HT room set up so if a fish shows a sign while in his displays he takes them to a back room for treatment.

Unfortunately, that might be good for the sick fish, but any other fish in the displays that share a common water source will also potentially be carrying the disease and they are not being treated.

they try to run around a 92-95% survival rate of all new fish in the store

The best way for LFS to meet goals like this is to get a quick turn around on fish. The less time in their tanks the better the survival rate.

It may sound like it, but I'm not busting on your store. It sounds like they do better than most. The reality is that most people couldn't afford to be in the hobby if a LFS practiced proper quarantine and treatment. Could you imagine the losses he would incur if he had to take his entire display system fallow for 76 days? And moving forward he would have to have a small separate HT system to proactively treat fish for at least 20+ days before putting them in the display system? If he wanted weekly fish deliveries he would have to maintain at least 4 separate QT systems for fish and it would be worse for inverts! It just isn't profitable enough when people would rather pay 1/2 as much to buy them from a lower quality supplier.

 

[dburt520]

I completely agree with everything you said.

In no way, shape or form do I blame a store for a dead or sick fish. Ultimately, I purchased it, I should qt it or take the risk to introduce it to my tank without qt - this hobby is expensive enough as it is, more overhead costs for the Lfs only means high prices for us.

I was simply making a point that very few stores in my area do that type of thing with a qt tank or hospital tank.

 

[Deinonych]

With all the original fish being unscathed by all of this, it does lean toward something that they are resistant to and that the new fish are not.

This. Since you don't quarantine, it's almost impossible to know what latent pathogens may or may not be in your tank.

 

[ca1ore]

I, unfortunately do not do any kind of QT (I know, bad hobbiest... but ive been lucky so far - up to this point). I went 7 years of reefing and had 1 fish death (diamond goby jumped), and now 9 in 5 months.

As for acclimation - I float the bag to get temp equal, open bag, check salinity, and if equal grab fish and put it in tank (salinity has always matched my tank as I have purchased all fish from the same store).

What salinity are you running at? Most/all stores run low in their fish systems, so if your tank matches theirs ....... ? Timeline doesn't really support velvet as the problem. The good thing about QT is that you can eliminate acclimation as a cause of death.

 

[4FordFamily]

The LFS does NOT run copper in his systems. He has a QT/HT room set up so if a fish shows a sign while in his displays he takes them to a back room for treatment.

The problem with this method is that by the time it shows symptoms everything in that tank (and every fish in this system that shares water) is affected. This is a disaster waiting to happen. :/

 

[4FordFamily]

Also I am fine with stores keeping fish in copper by and large - the sheer volume of fish moving through statistically guarantees a plethora of parasites in each system. They should, however tell their customers this and encourage them to quarantine. At least while at the store they aren't getting much gill damage and are able to eat and fatten up without the parasite completely decimating them.

Of course the way to do this properly is to qt and treat all fish for 60 days before going in to display for sale but that's cost prohibitive for most and doesn't happen.

 

[dburt520]

I wanted to update this already:

Yesterday I saw the first signs of what could possibly be velvet - Yellow watchman swimming erratically, scratching rocks and sand bed for about 5 minutes. That was the only time I have seen this, however it was at least something to go off of. It did eat well last night, and was alive this morning and looking as normal as ever.

I would like to remove the fish and QT them, however with the gobies and blue hippo I would likely have to take my entire tank apart to catch the three of them, so that brings me to my next point and where i am at today:

If I have to go through the tank tear down process, I would like to use it as a time to address the couple things I dislike about my tank - main one being rock/scape. I would need to set up some sort of coral frag tank in the mean time but how long does that need to be up and cycled before I can put SPS into it? I have never done a frag tank of any kind, but I would assume it is no different than any other tank as far as cycling is concerned. (there would be no livestock in this frag tank - fish will be in QT, crabs/snails/shrimp will be re-homed.

I am not sure if this is the right course of action of not, but wanted a little help on figuring out what to do.

Thanks

 

[Brew12]

I wanted to update this already:

Yesterday I saw the first signs of what could possibly be velvet - Yellow watchman swimming erratically, scratching rocks and sand bed for about 5 minutes. That was the only time I have seen this, however it was at least something to go off of. It did eat well last night, and was alive this morning and looking as normal as ever.

I would like to remove the fish and QT them, however with the gobies and blue hippo I would likely have to take my entire tank apart to catch the three of them, so that brings me to my next point and where i am at today:

If I have to go through the tank tear down process, I would like to use it as a time to address the couple things I dislike about my tank - main one being rock/scape. I would need to set up some sort of coral frag tank in the mean time but how long does that need to be up and cycled before I can put SPS into it? I have never done a frag tank of any kind, but I would assume it is no different than any other tank as far as cycling is concerned. (there would be no livestock in this frag tank - fish will be in QT, crabs/snails/shrimp will be re-homed.

I am not sure if this is the right course of action of not, but wanted a little help on figuring out what to do.

Thanks

If you set up your frag tank it really doesn't take long to cycle since there is very little bio load. Frag tanks are much more stable by their nature since there is no substrate, rock, or fish load and feeding to mess which chemistry.

You could put your inverts into your frag tank if you wanted. Just a thought but you would have to feed them a little and it would add to your bio load.

 

[roberthu526]

Did you notice any white fish waste? Could it be internal infection?

 

[dburt520]

I do not see any white fish waste what so ever.

I have read anything and everything I could find on velvet and ich, and I think I am more confused now than ever...

I am going to take a step back on this - I will not be setting up a frag tank or tearing my DT down for any type of overhaul, however I will be attempting to catch 5 fish (I caught the Blue Hippo by accident, so I took it back to the LFS for now - wasn't ready with a QT, and figured that was one of the three that would be tough to catch).

So, now I have 2 clowns, 2 watchman and 1 hawkfish.

I would like to do TTM (if I am going to QT, I am going to be 100% sure I do everything possible to prevent any disease).

Here is what I am thinking:
Catch fish, and place them into a QT/Holding tank. Remove them 1 at a time for the 12 day TTM and place in a separate holding tank. This should take me 60 days from start to last fish going into holding tank. Once all are in the holding tank, I will treat with Prazipro and Cupramine for 2 weeks, bringing the total to 74 days. I would like to add a few weeks to monitor because I honestly do not know exactly what I am QT'ing or treating for...

My question is can I do multiple fish in the same tank during the TTM? Maybe the clown pair at the same time and then the Watchman pair at the same time? This would save me 24+ day's worth of TTM, however I dont know how effective this would be. I could also use that 24 day's to potentially TTM a new fish or two (maybe a bad idea...).

Are the 5 small fish to much to put back into tank at the same time? When I reintroduce them to the DT, should I treat the tank like day 1 and add them over several weeks/months?

 

[Brew12]

I do not see any white fish waste what so ever.

I have read anything and everything I could find on velvet and ich, and I think I am more confused now than ever...

I am going to take a step back on this - I will not be setting up a frag tank or tearing my DT down for any type of overhaul, however I will be attempting to catch 5 fish (I caught the Blue Hippo by accident, so I took it back to the LFS for now - wasn't ready with a QT, and figured that was one of the three that would be tough to catch).

So, now I have 2 clowns, 2 watchman and 1 hawkfish.

I would like to do TTM (if I am going to QT, I am going to be 100% sure I do everything possible to prevent any disease).

Here is what I am thinking:
Catch fish, and place them into a QT/Holding tank. Remove them 1 at a time for the 12 day TTM and place in a separate holding tank. This should take me 60 days from start to last fish going into holding tank. Once all are in the holding tank, I will treat with Prazipro and Cupramine for 2 weeks, bringing the total to 74 days. I would like to add a few weeks to monitor because I honestly do not know exactly what I am QT'ing or treating for...

My question is can I do multiple fish in the same tank during the TTM? Maybe the clown pair at the same time and then the Watchman pair at the same time? This would save me 24+ day's worth of TTM, however I dont know how effective this would be. I could also use that 24 day's to potentially TTM a new fish or two (maybe a bad idea...).

Are the 5 small fish to much to put back into tank at the same time? When I reintroduce them to the DT, should I treat the tank like day 1 and add them over several weeks/months?

As long as the filtration in your tank can handle the bioload of the fish, the number of fish doesn't matter. If you could do them all at the same time I would highly recommend going that route! Just remember that TTM doesn't work on Velvet however you should see signs by the time you are done with the last transfer if you hold them for observation for at least 2 more weeks.

Oh... and putting them all back into your DT after it goes fallow is just fine. Just don't let your live rock dry out when you make your changes. Your nitrifying bacteria will be just fine while the fish are out.

 

[dburt520]

Ok, so to clarify, multiple fish in the same tank(s) during TTM is fine? The 2-3 day transfer doesn't change with the multiple fish in the same tank at the same time? I still have yet to see a single white spec on any fish in my DT - or any other marking for that matter (and I have been watching religiously now for almost a month).

I will not be touching the DT as far as re scape or tear down... alot of work to do the TTM, rescape, set up frag tank to house corals etc. I am just going to allow my tank to go fallow and hope my already nutrient starved SPS corals survive (They are growing well and FINALLY starting to see some of the colors I hoped I would someday see).

Thanks
Dave

 

[Brew12]

Ok, so to clarify, multiple fish in the same tank(s) during TTM is fine? The 2-3 day transfer doesn't change with the multiple fish in the same tank at the same time? I still have yet to see a single white spec on any fish in my DT - or any other marking for that matter (and I have been watching religiously now for almost a month).

I will not be touching the DT as far as re scape or tear down... alot of work to do the TTM, rescape, set up frag tank to house corals etc. I am just going to allow my tank to go fallow and hope my already nutrient starved SPS corals survive (They are growing well and FINALLY starting to see some of the colors I hoped I would someday see).

Thanks
Dave

Yup, multiple fish is fine.

 

[dburt520]

Thank you all for the help, really appreciate it!

One final question, and maybe a serious one...

If I have no intentions to QT future NON FISH livestock, mainly anything that isn't a fish, is a TTM/QT/Fallow period a wasted effort? I unfortunately do not have the room for a full time coral QT, an invert QT, 2 TTM tanks, and a holding/QT tank. While I understand the risk of bringing anything in on a frag plug, coral or invert is much less likely, there is still a chance.

This is a really tough thing to do, and I am completely torn because I still have not seen a single sign of Ick, Velvet, Brook, Flukes etc. Everything that I have read about velvet say's it is a very aggressive killer, and I haven't found a single "confirmed" case of velvet where a sign wasn't present....