Would you support marine fish "micro breeders?"

Squishie89 · Jun 20, 2014

If the fish I want is available as captive bred, then 100% I would buy it, even with the increase in price.

reefwiser · Jun 21, 2014

My hope is that we can get the hobby to the point where this is not a discussion. As a kid back in the 60's I can remember when most of the freshwater fish where wild catch fish. Now the vast majority of freshwater fish are captive bred. I am sitting up a new tank this year that will have captive bred fish in the tank as well as maricultured
live rock and of coarse corals. We should always be pushing for captive bred fish. There will come a point where laws will be standing in our way on collection and you wish you would have supported breeding at that point. I you explain to your wife as I have why this fish is more expensive believe me wife's will get it. I try to involve my wife as much as I can in my tank so she resents my purchases less. I have been in the fish hobby since I was 10 and I am going on 61 this year. would love to see every fish that we love in the hobby captive bred. I would love to get one of Karen's Mandarins because I love what Karen is doing and would love to have one in my tank so I can say Karen breed that fish. My tank is not ready for a mandarin yet but I hope to get a captive bred one when it is time.

PatW · Jun 21, 2014

Captive raised fish are superior in virtually every way. They are known to be acclimated to aquarium life. They are known to accept food that a person can provide. They are also acquired without damage to the reefs or damage to the fish during collection. The hobby becomes much more sustainable and viable as we shift to captive raised.

tyler1503 · Jun 21, 2014

uniquecorals said:
Would you, as hobbyists support a viable boutique market for captive-bred fishes, even if they cost more than their wild-collected counterparts? Or is the thought of paying $40 for a fish you could get from wild-collected sources just too much? Iâ€™m not trying to pander here, either- Iâ€™m really curious.

I would love to buy captive bred fish for $40. In reality the market for marine fish is that overpriced here in Australia that it's difficult to find a nice wild caught fish for under $50, unless you like damsels and chromis. Even a pair of male ocellaris clowns will set you back $80+.
$40 for a fish is a great deal here in Australia, assuming we're talking about something more exotic than clowns, damsels and chromis. Even common fish like 6 line wrasses and hippo tangs are expensive. Every 2nd tank has one, yet they wana charge $50-$60 for a baby no bigger than an inch still.
It would be amazing to have access to captive bred fish and it would benefit not only our oceans and wild populations, but the hobbiest. With enough generations of fish being bred we could eliminate aggression from different species. Imagine having a volatin lionfish, a dragon moray eel, a clown trigger and a few powder blue tangs living with gobies, blennies, shrimp and the like. We could potentially make any fish reef safe, any predator could be fish safe, any combination of fish, inverts and corals would be possible. They did it with dogs and they can do it with fish. I won't even get into the whole idea of new designer fish species. Imagine a yellow bellied hippo tang that's all yellow instead of blue!!

Scubanj1 · Jun 21, 2014

One thing that I find rather interesting is how people have zero problem spending hundreds and even thousands of dollars on a finger nail sized frag of some designer, named coral but they have a problem paying an extra $20 or $40 or $60 for a captive bred fish, even if it means that fish will likely last longer and thrive.

Most days I feel like I'm a little different than a lot of today's 'modern' reefers, as I got into this hobby because I love the fish. I had a FOWLR for a while before upgrading to a reef tank. Even with all the great coral I now have (a lot from Unique...

) my fish are definitely more the focal point for me. As a result I don't mind spending the extra money on CB so they live longer, eat better and look and act better (in my experience). When I can find them. Which is the bigger problem for me. Most of the LFS I visit don't even carry them so even with me willing to spend the money I can't.... I'm dying to obtain a mandarin to finish off my tank (for the time being!

) but I can't because I can't find one!

buzzword · Jun 21, 2014

I would buy captive bred over wild at any time, although most of the fish I want are not being bred or we are unable to breed them and raise the fry to maturity. With that said I am saving up for a ORA Red Sea Mimic Blenny. Scott, you get em i'll buy em. I'm willing to pay the extra for captive bred because I can do the critical thinking that says; ok I buy this fish wild caught for $X, captive is $XX. Fast forward 4 months you have now gone through 2-3 of the same fish because they did not adapt well to captivity and died. Now you could have spent the same, less or just a bit more but would have a live fish and spared the death of other fish.
In the long run it is where the hobby has to go because just as in Hawaii the harvesting of wild fish will be looked at under a microscope and bans will be proposed and implemented or harvesting restricted which will drive prices higher than wild caught. With overharvesting, destruction of the reefs and as in the video most of us saw, the actions of the harvesters of fish are coming under scrutiny and the general, basically uneducated about our hobby populace will look at the practices and raise hell. It's coming, maybe not in the next few years but be sure it is coming.

Eckolancer · Jun 21, 2014

I personally only buy fish from other peoples tanks that I trust. With that said if someone local was breeding fish and I trusted them I would buy from them fist. I just don't trust the local fish stores. Others may see at captive fish and non captive fish at the LFS, they are going to choose cheaper. One reason for this is that (if I recall the number right) 85% of people in this hobby have been in it less than 2 years, and are still learning. They are still in the mind set of trial and error.

Velodog2 · Jun 21, 2014

Gotta say I love the support being shown here and the general attitudes toward the hobby! Hope someday that translates into better success for breeders!

Bronson Foster · Jun 21, 2014

I'm totally for captive-breeding. I know it's not easy, but isn't it all about preservation not profit? A reasonable mark-up should be expected, but THREE TIMES the price is hardly "Competitive Pricing."

Eckolancer · Jun 21, 2014

Bronson Foster said:
I'm totally for captive-breeding. I know it's not easy, but isn't it all about preservation not profit? A reasonable mark-up should be expected, but THREE TIMES the price is hardly "Competitive Pricing."

The cost I can understand unless you are a big warehouse that grows all food needed from start to finish. A couple people locally grow bangi cardinals and clowns. I know they both grow most of their own food which helps on cost. It takes a few months of growing them to a size where they can be sold. One guy here sells his clowns cheaper than the wild caught ones that are normal and his are picassos. I think just about everyone on the local forum here has a pair from him. He will sell a big clutch of them to LFS at same price then you see them double the price the next day. Believe they do this to keep lights on and maybe a few die off. He does it for the hobby, fun, and he is helping get his kids involved. He estimates about a break even on cost of growing them till time sold.

uniquecorals · Jun 21, 2014

I love the feedback here...It confirms many of my suspicions; malignly, that there IS truly a market for captive-bred, high quality fishes, even if there is a significant increase over their wild-caught brethren. I think that we are "maturing" as a hobby culture, and the greater understanding of the "big picture" is leading to more open-mindedness about this than even a few years ago.

Once we move beyond Clownfish, I think the costs will become more acceptable for a wider variety of hobbyists, especially when the differentiation between wild and captive-propagated is explained properly. There is room for both wild-caught and captive-propagated, but I think (to beat a dead horse once again) that the key to expanding this captive-bred market is education. That's our job.

Thanks for the continued discourse on this important topic!

-Scott

Eienna · Jun 22, 2014

My two clowns (a mocha occy and an orange occy, both misbars) were locally bred and I got them for $6 each. They were tiiiiiny - the orange was about the length of my thumbnail - but they're doing terrific <3

Nano sapiens · Jun 22, 2014

Personally, I prefer captive bred since they are more apt to survive in an aquarium and I am all for supporting local business. I can remember when wild was literally the only option available and it's really nice to see that more and more captive raised fish are being offered.

On the flip side, I don't have any issue purchasing wild if the fish isn't captive bred and the wild fish are caught by hand netting. Scientific study has shown that when a fish is removed, it isn't long before another takes it's place (there are a lot of larval fish just hoping for a spot on the reef). Also, there are many subsistence fishermen in the tropics that count on collection as either their primary income or as supplemental income.

Eienna · Jun 22, 2014

Nano sapiens said:
Personally, I prefer captive bred since they are more apt to survive in an aquarium and I am all for supporting local business. I can remember when wild was literally the only option available and it's really nice to see that more and more captive raised fish are being offered.

On the flip side, I don't have any issue purchasing wild if the fish isn't captive bred and the wild fish are caught by hand netting. Scientific study has shown that when a fish is removed, it isn't long before another takes it's place (there are a lot of larval fish just hoping for a spot on the reef). Also, there are many subsistence fishermen in the tropics that count on collection as either their primary income or as supplemental income.

Why not set these people up to breed them? That would be kind of expensive to get going but would solve two problems at once.

Nano sapiens · Jun 22, 2014

Eienna said:
Why not set these people up to breed them? That would be kind of expensive to get going but would solve two problems at once.

Cost would be prohibitive. You'd have the cost of raising them plus the cost of shipping to far flung countries. Much easier/cheaper to net wild reef stock and ship.

Kworker · Jun 22, 2014

uniquecorals said:
I love the feedback here...It confirms many of my suspicions; malignly, that there IS truly a market for captive-bred, high quality fishes, even if there is a significant increase over their wild-caught brethren. I think that we are "maturing" as a hobby culture, and the greater understanding of the "big picture" is leading to more open-mindedness about this than even a few years ago.

Once we move beyond Clownfish, I think the costs will become more acceptable for a wider variety of hobbyists, especially when the differentiation between wild and captive-propagated is explained properly. There is room for both wild-caught and captive-propagated, but I think (to beat a dead horse once again) that the key to expanding this captive-bred market is education. That's our job.

Thanks for the continued discourse on this important topic!

-Scott

+1

If only they were only as easy to breed as freshwater fish. I suppose it could end up being easy in the future with the nice advances this hobby is making.

If it were me, I would pay double for a captive bred fish versus a wild.

jservedio · Jun 23, 2014

I feel like the majority of people in the reefing community would spend 2-3x (or more) for captive bred easily - but they really aren't the problem with why they aren't viable. Every single coral and fish in my tank was either captive bred, aquacultured, or maricultured and quite a few people I know are the same way and I am very proud of that - it took me a long time and a lot of care to build.

But, the bread and butter customers for most LFS are clueless and will be back many, many times buying the same fish. Fish are disposable to them and their lifespans don't matter - they will never know that clown they bought can live 10 years easily with only marginal care - all they know is they are around $25 a pair and getting a new pair every 3-4 months is just a 10 minute drive. Even if the LFS owner tried to explain it, they really don't care. If a LFS owner tried to discourage one of these type of customers from buying a mandarin because of the damage it will do on the environment - they wouldn't be a customer for long.

If a real reefer isn't willing to spend an extra $40 on a mandarin they will probably have for years after spending several THOUSAND, even for a nano, on a reef - they are in the wrong hobby. Captive bred is the future - plain and simple - the more people who get on board now, the cheaper it'll be in the future and the better off our hobby will be.

Sully · Jun 23, 2014

I think one thing that would help people is to explain why CB are so much more expensive than WC. Maybe Scott can provide the reasoning behind it. I myself just can't figure out why the price is so much higher when you take into the fact that WC fish have to be transported somehow to the states which can't be cheap, even when done in bulk. Maybe I'm missing something but it would seem that fish reared in the states by reputable breeders would end up being cheaper in the long run than WC fish. Especially when you take into account the fact that there have been a few people on here that have had success with breeding. (the black ice snowflake thread comes to mind. He's had at least two broods in the last few weeks and has done well with survival rates).

Please note I'm not trying to stir the pot on this issue. I think it would be awesome as a hobby that we could someday purchase a majority of the fish we want through CBing. I'm just trying to understand the substantial cost increase. Having to pay three times the amount for a fish that's CB just doesn't compute but I would and do it.