Can't keep fish alive in QT

[MnFish1]

Dropping Salinity to make sure all parasites can't for any reason have the possibility to survive.

This won't ensure all parasites can't survive - if that were so - no one would use medication.

I have no idea if any medications are being used at the LFS.
I have asked but they say only if needed, and the medication depends on the problem.

I would ask specifically - if the fish you are buying are in a tank containing medication (ie was it needed).

So far as I have been now learning, it seems as if in todays world of reef/fish keeping, medications from the start in the QT are the methods for success.

@Lasse

 

[George81]

Just an FYI on that ph probe, don’t submerge it like that in any liquid, you can damage the probe. You just wanna cover the bulb, so a depth of 1/2” or so is enough.
Also are you storing that probe in proper storage solution? When those bulbs dry out they are no good.
I have the same one that I use for making sour beers and it’s horribly unreliable and inaccurate. I just taste the wort now to see if it’s where I want it.
I find it has to constantly be calibrated. Also I fill the little black sleeve with storage solution and store it upright.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

most LFS run sub therapeutic copper and Prazi. They do this to keep disease from wiping out their stock. The problem is once the fish leaves their system and into a non medicated tank the parasite thrives again and begins taking over.

This won't ensure all parasites can't survive - if that were so - no one would use medication.



I would ask specifically - if the fish you are buying are in a tank containing medication (ie was it needed).




@Lasse

 

[K7BMG]

You didnt mention bleach in your plan: Wash the QT and its contents with RO/DI and vinegar, allow to dry.

Bleach is effective yes. I dont default to using harsh chemicals.
My thought was a good washing with vinegar the with the medication would effectively take care of the existing problem, especially when set up again with proper meds.

 

[K7BMG]

Just an FYI on that ph probe, don’t submerge it like that in any liquid, you can damage the probe. You just wanna cover the bulb, so a depth of 1/2” or so is enough.
Also are you storing that probe in proper storage solution? When those bulbs dry out they are no good.
I have the same one that I use for making sour beers and it’s horribly unreliable and inaccurate. I just taste the wort now to see if it’s where I want it.
I find it has to constantly be calibrated. Also I fill the little black sleeve with storage solution and store it upright.

I have not had an issue with this probes accuracy.
I have calibrated it mutiple times with success.
I will and do keep the tip wet.
I rinse and store it with RO/DI water in the cap.
Once or twice I did not put the cap back on and I am sure the tip dried out. But the probe to my knowledge is accurate with calibration.
Did not know its only to be into the water about 1/2 inch. Will be more careful in the future thx

 

[K7BMG]

This won't ensure all parasites can't survive - if that were so - no one would use medication.

Yes meant hypo salinity along with the copper medication.
Correct me if wrong, but the hypo salinity as I have understood kills the adult parasites simmilar to but not as efective as a FW dip.
It also slowes down their reproductive rate.

I would ask specifically - if the fish you are buying are in a tank containing medication (ie was it needed).
Good advise



@Lasse

 

[4FordFamily]

The first angel has an infection, uronema possible but I’m guessing velvet and seconary infection as a result but I’m not 100% certain.

Sorry for your QT troubles, you aren’t using prime in the QT with copper, are you?

Here is our QT process:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

It’s not perfect but we have learned a lot of hard lessons that we’ve reported back on there. Uronema was a big issue so we started adding it to copper. You could skip spectrogram and use just metroplex and copper and follow it that way as well.

 

[K7BMG]

Just an fyi for all. My LFS does not quarantine their fish. They have no system set up for it.

I know they keep low salinity at 1.021.
I am sure the dose with something, copper, PraziPro, etc.
They have many bottles of medications in the back.

 

[K7BMG]

The first angel has an infection, uronema possible but I’m guessing velvet and seconary infection as a result but I’m not 100% certain.

Sorry for your QT troubles, you aren’t using prime in the QT with copper, are you?

Here is our QT process:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

It’s not perfect but we have learned a lot of hard lessons that we’ve reported back on there. Uronema was a big issue so we started adding it to copper. You could skip spectrogram and use just metroplex and copper and follow it that way as well.

Same fish in both pics. Only had the one fish this time round.
Yes never have combined Copper and Prime together.

I do not have Spectrogram, but have Metro.

Did read the OPs first post in the link you provided.
Will follow it

 

[Lasse]

My water source is from our well.

The same well water feeds the shop but without the water softener

Some questions.

What type of water softener? What´s your pH from the tap? Do the pipes or the hot water tank of the house contain copper? Have some of you (in the household) blond hair? If so – is it a green hue in it? (the question is not a joke!) Have your daughter success with fresh water shrimps or snails?

The combination of water softener and iron filter seems odd for me – when you need a softener – normally an iron filter is not needed and reverse. Have the LFS the same iron filter and what type is it?

Personally – I would not buy any new fishes before I had done an ICP test on the mixed saltwater.

The first 8 fishes – from your LFS – how fast did they die, and did it show up any signs of diseases or did they only get lethargic and die?

Do you use (chemical) air cleaners, scented candles (or something like that) in the household?

Are there any fish in your main display? Also a quarantine should be completely cut off from the display tank. Reason being is if you have ich or velvet in the display, taking that tank water and putting it in your qt tank restarts the treatment clock every time you do it.

Seems logical but my question is - what´s happen with the QT fish when you put into the DT if they have not been exposed for that infected water before and manage to handle it? In a proper QT you must sooner or later expose the fishes for the water in your DT - otherwise the whole procedure can be unnecessarily.- better to do that before you move from the QT where you can treat if necessary - IMO

most LFS run sub therapeutic copper and Prazi. They do this to keep disease from wiping out their stock. The problem is once the fish leaves their system and into a non medicated tank the parasite thrives again and begins taking over.

If this is true - the parasites in question must have a dormant stage on the fish that hinder them from leaving the fish when it is medication in the water - and just leave and reproduce themself when there is no medication in the water. IMO - with these medicines (that works in another way compared with antiobiotics - kill instead of hinder growth) sub therapeutic levels does not work even at a LFS. But - as been highlighted in other threads by @MnFish1 - the combination of low salinity and low copper make the low concentrations of copper therapeutic.

I do not know if this is a water quality problem or a disease problem because I can´t judge in this question based on the information given by the OP. I´m not either skilled enough to decide the origin of the problem just with looking on a photograph of a dead fish.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[4FordFamily]

I’d highly advise against hypo and copper being utilized together. This is very tough on fish, and although it sounds like a great hypothesis would only be effective with ich, the real threats such as velvet can easily thrive in hypo-saline environments.

 

[MnFish1]

most LFS run sub therapeutic copper and Prazi. They do this to keep disease from wiping out their stock. The problem is once the fish leaves their system and into a non medicated tank the parasite thrives again and begins taking over.

People say that they do - but do they really (ie do many LFS really use low dose copper? I checked 3 LFS here - one uses full dose copper for 2 weeks - then praziquantel - then puts fish in display with no copper (they all have invertebrates with them - so I believe them). The other only uses copper in specific tanks when there are diseases present (and those tanks are marked and fish aren't sold from them) - whether there is cross contamination is another question.

The third denies any use of copper except in tanks 'in the back' when problems have been noticed.

I have heard that distributors use copper - at lower doses - but they also use hypo salinity - which supposedly allows the use of a lower dose of copper (i.e. its not subtheraputic)

I'm not at all saying you're wrong - but except algae control (for which I HAVE heard a low dose of copper is sometimes used in LFS) - there is no reason to think that subtheraputic doses of copper 'control' CI. If it did - thats the definition of therapeutic - or am I missing something.

 

[MnFish1]

I’d highly advise against hypo and copper being utilized together. This is very tough on fish, and although it sounds like a great hypothesis would only be effective with ich, the real threats such as velvet can easily thrive in hypo-saline environments.

FWIW I wasn't recommending hypo salinity and copper - I was just saying there is information out there that suggests one can use a lower copper dose in the presence of hypo salinity. Hyposalinity alone is not effective against velvet.

PS here is an article that tested this - note its only in one type of fish )but it does concern velvet - and it is recent (i.e. 2018).:

Finally, an improved treatment method using dual hyposalination and copper sulfate exposure to increase the efficiency and decrease the toxicity of copper sulfate was tested. The gradual reduction in water salinity coupled with copper sulfate treatment was more efficient at controlling the disease than only applying copper sulfate.

Amyloodinium ocellatum disease outbreak in cultured Dicentrarchus labrax: parasitological and molecular diagnosis, and a modified treatment protocol (June 2018, Diseases of Aquatic Organisms 129(1))

 

[MnFish1]

BTW - Im not sure that vinegar in the dose you are using will kill encysted parasites. It might - I just cant find good information. On the other hand there is very good information about letting the tank 'dry out' or using bleach (I believe at 500 PPM) or a 1:10 dilution.

 

[4FordFamily]

FWIW I wasn't recommending hypo salinity and copper - I was just saying there is information out there that suggests one can use a lower copper dose in the presence of hypo salinity. Hyposalinity alone is not effective against velvet.

PS here is an article that tested this - note its only in one type of fish )but it does concern velvet - and it is recent (i.e. 2018).:

Finally, an improved treatment method using dual hyposalination and copper sulfate exposure to increase the efficiency and decrease the toxicity of copper sulfate was tested. The gradual reduction in water salinity coupled with copper sulfate treatment was more efficient at controlling the disease than only applying copper sulfate.

Amyloodinium ocellatum disease outbreak in cultured Dicentrarchus labrax: parasitological and molecular diagnosis, and a modified treatment protocol (June 2018, Diseases of Aquatic Organisms 129(1))

Can you send me a link to the article? I discussed with Humblefish (Bobby) today and he said under no circumstance should the two be combined because copper is more toxic at lower salinity which he hypothesizes is why cupramine recommends a .25 therapeutic level for freshwater. I am paraphrasing of course.

 

[MnFish1]

Can you send me a link to the article? I discussed with Humblefish (Bobby) today and he said under no circumstance should the two be combined because copper is more toxic at lower salinity which he hypothesizes is why cupramine recommends a .25 therapeutic level for freshwater. I am paraphrasing of course.

Sure. The idea in this article being - you use hypo salinity - AND a lower copper dosage. Again - im not recommending it - just saying - it may be a reason why LFS are keeping low doses of copper in their systems (i.e though toxic - it may be as effective as higher doses).

Here it is - let me know if you cant access it - and ill post it (PS I quoted the article and posted the title, etc in the other post).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...r_diagnosis_and_a_modified_treatment_protocol

 

[MnFish1]

Can you send me a link to the article? I discussed with Humblefish (Bobby) today and he said under no circumstance should the two be combined because copper is more toxic at lower salinity which he hypothesizes is why cupramine recommends a .25 therapeutic level for freshwater. I am paraphrasing of course.

PS - the other interesting thing from that article - in the fish treated with only copper sulfate - they still found parasites in some of the fish - in the method whereby they used a combination of hypo salinity and copper they found no residual parasites.

 

[Jon Fishman]

I get them they are doing fine, eating and swimming normally. Then they stop eating and die within a day or two.

If you are suggesting they die within, say a week of being in your possession, I don't think any parasite etc. that they have prior to leaving the store is what is doing them in.....

If it were me, I would empty it, clean it, and replace the water with store-bought RODI/salt and see what happens..... I can only imagine something you are introducing in the water that you can't/aren't testing for is killing them.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

People say that they do - but do they really (ie do many LFS really use low dose copper? I checked 3 LFS here - one uses full dose copper for 2 weeks - then praziquantel - then puts fish in display with no copper (they all have invertebrates with them - so I believe them). The other only uses copper in specific tanks when there are diseases present (and those tanks are marked and fish aren't sold from them) - whether there is cross contamination is another question.

The third denies any use of copper except in tanks 'in the back' when problems have been noticed.

I have heard that distributors use copper - at lower doses - but they also use hypo salinity - which supposedly allows the use of a lower dose of copper (i.e. its not subtheraputic)

I'm not at all saying you're wrong - but except algae control (for which I HAVE heard a low dose of copper is sometimes used in LFS) - there is no reason to think that subtheraputic doses of copper 'control' CI. If it did - thats the definition of therapeutic - or am I missing something.

I would disagree every LFS here in Orlando does and I’m sure 99.9% do just for the simple fact of economics. All it would take is one fish with velvet to come in from a supplier and they would have huge losses. I would bet yours do also even if they don’t admit it. Every fish I buy I test their water for copper and guess what? I haven’t found one yet that wasn’t in some level of copper.

 

[MnFish1]

I would disagree every LFS here in Orlando does and I’m sure 99.9% do just for the simple fact of economics. All it would take is one fish with velvet to come in from a supplier and they would have huge losses. I would bet yours do also even if they don’t admit it. Every fish I buy I test their water for copper and guess what? I haven’t found one yet that wasn’t in some level of copper.

If I buy my fish from a tank containing clams or feather dusters or cleaner shrimp - can there be copper in the water? Thats what I do (for the most part - I only buy fish if they are in a tank already containing invertebrates). I agree with you though - I don't test their water for copper so I cant be sure that everyone that 'says' they dont use copper, really dont use copper.

My question - is why would an LFS use subtheraputic copper - except by mistake - by definition subtheraputic copper should have no effect on CI - EXCEPT to induce resistance (which hasn't yet happened). IE- do you know of any evidence that lower levels of copper keep CI or velvet in check? (I cant find any) - So - in this case - using subtheraputic copper would not prevent the situation you mentioned above (i.e. 1 case of velvet brought in could cause a disaster.... Its an interesting question - its often spoken about here - but I'm not seeing a lot of hard data to support the theory.

Of course - as I mentioned - there are stores that use full dose copper. Thanks for dicusssing this -its interesting.