Can't keep fish alive in QT

[MnFish1]

I get them they are doing fine, eating and swimming normally. Then they stop eating and die within a day or two.

If you are suggesting they die within, say a week of being in your possession, I don't think any parasite etc. that they have prior to leaving the store is what is doing them in.....

If it were me, I would empty it, clean it, and replace the water with store-bought RODI/salt and see what happens..... I can only imagine something you are introducing in the water that you can't/aren't testing for is killing them.

There is, though, a possibility - that there is velvet in his QT tank - that when new fish are added is causing a problem. It all depends on how the tank was 'cleaned'. I also read an interesting article - concerning the 'all in - all out' method recommendation when QT'ing - i.e. you add all the fish at the same time, you take all of them out at the same time - then clean the tank in between. If you do add a new fish into QT - the QT clock is reset to 0.

That said - I would wonder about a toxin in the water thats not being totally removed by the RODI as well - or a toxin in the QT room. I may have missed it - im not sure what the TDS of his RODI water is/was - if it was greater than 0 - this could very well be the case since he is using well water.

 

[4FordFamily]

I get them they are doing fine, eating and swimming normally. Then they stop eating and die within a day or two.

If you are suggesting they die within, say a week of being in your possession, I don't think any parasite etc. that they have prior to leaving the store is what is doing them in.....

If it were me, I would empty it, clean it, and replace the water with store-bought RODI/salt and see what happens..... I can only imagine something you are introducing in the water that you can't/aren't testing for is killing them.

If the fish are sent with velvet on them already as they sometimes are, it can take 24-48 hours before even strong fish succumb. They’re in a tiny bag, velvet would find it immensely easy to continue to find their host for what is almost quite literally exponential reproduction.

 

[MnFish1]

If the fish are sent with velvet on them already as they sometimes are, it can take 24-48 hours before even strong fish succumb. They’re in a tiny bag, velvet would find it immensely easy to continue to find their host.

Especially at a lower temperature - the immune system of the fish can be quite lowered.

 

[Jon Fishman]

9/9 though?

 

[4FordFamily]

9/9 though?

If velvet is present in the quarantine tank and wasn’t sterilized in-between, I would expect near 100% fatality within 7-14 days, depending on the species of fish and its condition upon arrival.

If the fish arrived with velvet (as many do now, to varying degrees) this timeline is cut shorter.

 

[MnFish1]

@4FordFamily You know more about some of the more rare parasites than I do - Could it be a virus or brook or something else (a bacteria, vibrio, aeromonas, etc) that has survived the vinegar cleaning process he used (i.e. not velvet) that could kill this quickly? Is vinegar as he diluted it - good enough to 'kill everything'

 

[4FordFamily]

@4FordFamily You know more about some of the more rare parasites than I do - Could it be a virus or brook or something else (a bacteria, vibrio, aeromonas, etc) that has survived the vinegar cleaning process he used (i.e. not velvet) that could kill this quickly? Is vinegar as he diluted it - good enough to 'kill everything'

Bacterial infections are possible, such a massive variance in infectious bacteria— generally I’ll say it’s not nearly as likely but possible. With uronema it’s possible but you’d see more redness and open sores on the fish typically.

Of course if the fish is shipped with an infection then yes it’s even more likely. Brook is generally very obvious, particularly on dark fish. As severe as it becomes it looks like nasty velvet or even worse, and is sometimes more obvious. Ich is unlikely the culprit.

I’ve seen a lot of all of these diseases over the past two years, much more frequently in the past year.

 

[Lasse]

For the book - they was dead in a couple of days - at least if I understand the OP right.

Soncerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Especially at a lower temperature - the immune system of the fish can be quite lowered.

Pathogen activity will also go down - it's usually even out

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Pathogen activity will also go down - it's usually even out

Sincerely Lasse

Yes - the issue is though - when you have a low temp - and then increase it the immune system doesnt recover immediately - but - the parasites that were 'more dormant' will recover quickly. Wont it? At a low temperature - the encysted parasites are less likely to grow - but therefore also less likely to make theronts - thus when the temp rises again - there could me more theronts hatching at a certain time? There seems to be data on both sides.

I guess the message I would use is that if you are QT'ing there is possibility a negative consequence to decreasing the temperature

 

[Lasse]

The ONE study done how long a ich parasite could stay dormant and which is the base for asume 72 days as safe was done in temperatures around 20 if I do not remmember wrong. If we do not talk about temperature below 18 degree C (or around that) - lowering the temperature can have different effects- One possitive is that the O2 concentreation will rise on lower temperatures. You are right that how fast a temperature will rise have a great importances in outdoor ponds and lakes in the temperate part of the world - but now we are talking of temperatures down to 4 degree C and a rise to around 20 - 25 degree C in swallow ponds during springtime.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[K7BMG]

Some questions.

What type of water softener?
It is a Kinetico water softener, with two canisters of resin.

What´s your pH from the tap?
That I don't know.

Do the pipes or the hot water tank of the house contain copper? Have some of you (in the household) blond hair? If so – is it a green hue in it? (the question is not a joke!) Have your daughter success with fresh water shrimps or snails?
The house is three years old and uses pex piping with copper or brass angle stops. Yes both the ladies of the house are blond, and no coloration of the hair, (I know its not a joke). Yes the daughter keeps snails with success.
The shop / office where my tanks are located are 200 feet away and detached from the house.
There is not a water softener on the shop just my BRS 7 stage for all my tank water needs.

The combination of water softener and iron filter seems odd for me – when you need a softener – normally an iron filter is not needed and reverse. Have the LFS the same iron filter and what type is it?
I know the LFS has a RO/DI unit, but I don't know if they have anything for the source water. The angel pictured in this thread came from Petco not my LFS.

Personally – I would not buy any new fishes before I had done an ICP test on the mixed saltwater.
Done, just got the results back, Triton ICP, I will post a copy of my PDF. The results were not so hot for coral but I don't know if harmful to fish. The test was on the DT water, but I have used that for my QT water changes as its cycled.

The first 8 fishes – from your LFS – how fast did they die, and did it show up any signs of diseases or did they only get lethargic and die?

The first 8 spanned over a two week period. I did not see anything wrong with the fish initially.
That said, outside of spots or cloudy eyes I don't know what to look for and saw nothing that alarmed me at the time of purchase.
The Angel was stressed and only lasted 24 hours, it was young about the size of a quarter. I should have not bought him, I was over zealous, the angel had just arrived at the LFS so it was acclimated twice in the same day. That one is for sure on me.
Time line from acclimation into my QT,
24 hours Angel died never ate,
End of day two 1 Chromis was not eating, day three dead.
Day three Watchman did not eat, day four watchman gone.
Day 5 all was good.
Day 6 another Chromis did not eat.
Day 7 Chromis dead.
Day 8-9 ok but one Chromis did not eat, Royal Gramma started to hide more.
Day 10 Chromis dead, Royal did not eat.
Day 11 Royal did not eat stayed hiding.
Day 12 Royal dead, one of the two Chromis had long stringy brown feces.
Meds arrived, 1/2 dose of Cupramine, and full dose of General Cure.
Day 13 both Chromis had stringy white feces, stopped eating.
Day 14 both gone.

Do you use (chemical) air cleaners, scented candles (or something like that) in the household?
In the household yes, NOT THE SHOP where my tanks are..

Seems logical but my question is - what´s happen with the QT fish when you put into the DT if they have not been exposed for that infected water before and manage to handle it? In a proper QT you must sooner or later expose the fishes for the water in your DT - otherwise the whole procedure can be unnecessarily.- better to do that before you move from the QT where you can treat if necessary - IMO
My DT is new and has completed its cycle as of 3-27, It has never had fish, corals, or algae yet. Have not even turned on the lights to start the ugly stage yet.

If this is true - the parasites in question must have a dormant stage on the fish that hinder them from leaving the fish when it is medication in the water - and just leave and reproduce themself when there is no medication in the water. IMO - with these medicines (that works in another way compared with antiobiotics - kill instead of hinder growth) sub therapeutic levels does not work even at a LFS. But - as been highlighted in other threads by @MnFish1 - the combination of low salinity and low copper make the low concentrations of copper therapeutic.

I do not know if this is a water quality problem or a disease problem because I can´t judge in this question based on the information given by the OP. I´m not either skilled enough to decide the origin of the problem just with looking on a photograph of a dead fish.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[K7BMG]

Attached below is my first Triton Labs ICP Test. Its in PDF

My source water TDS starts at about 80-120.
I let the unit run on bypass for around 10min, until it drops down to 5, then I make product water with 0 TDS.

 

[K7BMG]

After getting the results from Triton I have put 250 +/- ml of CupriSorb in a reactor, and it has been running for about 36 hours now.
Though Triton shows High Iron my Hanna test shows 0 iron.

My 20G QT tanks were purchased new from Petco, and washed with vinegar and RO/DI water, and rinsed, with RO/DI water.
Also heaters, and PVC fittings, washed in a mix of vinegar water.
Come to think of it the foam filters I think I just used out of the box.
All parts and pieces were allowed to thoroughly dry before use.

 

[Lasse]

I read through your test. You are sky high in Fe and Mn. This indicate that your Iron filter does not work and your RODI not work either. (Many times Mn and Fe follow each other in water from deep drilled wells) You are high in Phosphorous, Al and Si too. This can also indicate that your RODI does not work as it should. Sn (tin) is also high.

The high Fe can be of concern - its known to ackumulate on the gills of the fish and some paper I have seen indicates thats it is a more serve problem in brakish and saltwater compared with freshwater.

As you understand - I suspect copper - the Triton test show me wrong - that´s good

But the Triton test indicate that you have a metal problem and I think you have to find the source for these metals

Sincerely Lasse

 

[cancun]

I was following along! Very interesting discussion! To the OP I am so sorry for your fish losses! I know first hand how frustrating that can be! I think it is great that you are determined to figure out what is going on, and keep at it!!! Good for you!!! Somebody might have said this.

Years ago when I was a newbie....I had lost fish getting them from a LFS that keeps salinity at 1.020 or lower, and dripped them for 60 min into salinity at 1.025. The fish ate, acted normal, but died a few days later. Now I only buy fish from display tanks at my LFS, or their coral tanks. Both have salinity at 1.025-1.026.

Keep at though!!! You are doing a great job, and you are in excellent hands on this forum! [emoji16]

 

[K7BMG]

I read through your test. You are sky high in Fe and Mn. This indicate that your Iron filter does not work and your RODI not work either. (Many times Mn and Fe follow each other in water from deep drilled wells) You are high in Phosphorous, Al and Si too. This can also indicate that your RODI does not work as it should. Sn (tin) is also high.

The high Fe can be of concern - its known to ackumulate on the gills of the fish and some paper I have seen indicates thats it is a more serve problem in brakish and saltwater compared with freshwater.

As you understand - I suspect copper - the Triton test show me wrong - that´s good

But the Triton test indicate that you have a metal problem and I think you have to find the source for these metals

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for your input.
I don't know what to look for.
My BRS 7 stage RO/DI unit was purchased 6 to 9 months ago, would have to check.
I have made no more than 700 gallons of water with it.
I am sure you know the unit I am referencing.
I did put CupriSorb in a reactor about 36 hours ago.
None of the CupriSorb has changed to the blue/black color after only 36 hours, but I don't know how long the reaction would take.
Keep in mind my shop is fed direct from the well, there seems to be some confusion on that.
The only thing between my well and the tank is my RO/DI

How in the world does one check a RO/DI unit?

 

[cancun]

Sorry to hear of your struggles.

There has to be something going on. How quickly are they dying? If you don't have any type of contamination then it's likely disease related.

Disease is so rampant these days that it causes me to treat every new fish prophylactically. I am aggressive with treatments. I start fish off in copper immediately. I also feed medicated food. It's not the way I prefer to do it, but it's the only way I can keep fish alive.

I know this has been discussed before.....but this is sooooo heart breaking! One of the two LFS I buy my fish from advised me that they actually switched from a major wholesaler here to another one, because on almost every order they were loosing a lot if fish that were diseased right out if the bag.

Makes me think of the collectors. I know fish aren't pulled out if the ocean already with velvet or whatever.....or can they??? [emoji849]

 

[cancun]

Bacterial infections are possible, such a massive variance in infectious bacteria— generally I’ll say it’s not nearly as likely but possible. With uronema it’s possible but you’d see more redness and open sores on the fish typically.

Of course if the fish is shipped with an infection then yes it’s even more likely. Brook is generally very obvious, particularly on dark fish. As severe as it becomes it looks like nasty velvet or even worse, and is sometimes more obvious. Ich is unlikely the culprit.

I’ve seen a lot of all of these diseases over the past two years, much more frequently in the past year.

@4fordfamily.....do you and @HotRocks and @Humblefish have any new ideas or thoughts as to why suppliers.... wholesalers etc are shipping fish with obvious signs of disease???

 

[HotRocks]

I know this has been discussed before.....but this is sooooo heart breaking! One of the two LFS I buy my fish from advised me that they actually switched from a major wholesaler here to another one, because on almost every order they were loosing a lot if fish that were diseased right out if the bag.

Makes me think of the collectors. I know fish aren't pulled out if the ocean already with velvet or whatever.....or can they??? [emoji849]

It is possible that a fish has an attached trophont when collected. The problem is when they are put into an isolated system and the parasites begin to multiply.

@4fordfamily.....do you and @HotRocks and @Humblefish have any new ideas or thoughts as to why suppliers.... wholesalers etc are shipping fish with obvious signs of disease???

Nothing has really changed. Which is why I'm such an advocate for prophylactic treatment.