Chemiclean Poll, take 2

[Brew12]

Never had an issue or die off of Coral have used many times over the years with great success, I agree following the directions is essential, I do leave my skimmer on with no issues

Thanks for the input. It really seems like it is a great product 99%+ of the time. Just with I could find the common link for why some people crash their tanks when using it. Obviously, some do by not following the directions but others seem to do everything right and still suffer a crash.

 

[Dom274]

I know it is possible to lie. Can you share with us the actual ingredients in the product that make you so sure that improper aeration is the only possible cause of tank die off?
I do know a member here has experienced a die off and they had pictures of the air stone installed in their tank. Could it be photo shopped in? I guess. But I doubt it.

I don't have a chemistry degree, but that's besides the point. You're being pedantic about the wrong thing. The directions simply say you need to increase aeration, it does not specify how much though, which is where people have their issues. Just because someone has an air stone in their tank, doesn't mean it was enough to counteract the amount of 02 the system lost.

 

[Brew12]

I don't have a chemistry degree, but that's besides the point. You're being pedantic about the wrong thing. The directions simply say you need to increase aeration, it does not specify how much though, which is where people have their issues. Just because someone has an air stone in their tank, doesn't mean it was enough to counteract the amount of 02 the system lost.

I believe something else has to be going on. For the many of us who do not run full siphon drains we get more aeration than any air pump could provide. You would need to run an full blown air compressor to match that amount of aeration. I have read of several cases where people with Durso drains and running air pumps have wiped tanks. I have read where people with full siphon drains and didn't add extra aeration where there was no die off.
I probably won't find the answer but it doesn't mean I won't try digging into it further.

 

[Lenny_S]

Aeration is one of the key steps to follow. But it isn't to add O2, it is to help with gas exchange and buildup of CO2.
Any of you who have used ChemiClean and have a pH monitor in your system probably noticed a pretty sharp drop in pH when you used ChemiClean. That is a sharp buildup of CO2. Now think about how a calcium reactor works, inject CO2 into the reactor, carbonic acid forms, and dissolves the aragonite releasing the calcium.
IMHO the instances where people have trouble with ChemiClean is from that sharp decrease in pH.
This is the ritual me and my family/friends follow if we use ChemiClean.
1) Manually remove as much cyano as possible

When the cyano dies off it releases a small amount of toxins into the water, if you have a lot in the system when you start it could cause problems. Since you can't use carbon while the treatment is ongoing there is nothing to remove them. This can be compounded by the corals (especially softies and Zoas) releasing toxins from stress.​

2) Get the dose right

We use this calculator and it accounts for sump, sand, and rock. http://reef.diesyst.com/volcalc/volcalc.html​

3) For an in sump skimmer, remove the cup and set it wide open (if not use a large air stone and air pump)

It's critical to keep a lot of gas exchange going during the whole process​

4) Add the dose slowly

It seems to be less of a shock to the system if you add the dose over the course of a few hours, the liquid Chemiclean is great for this, but you can do it with the dissolved powder too.​

5) Blackout the tank and sump during the treatment

This seems to increase the effectiveness of the treatment and lowers the stress for the critters.​

6) At the end of treatment do a 25% WC and add GAC back to the system

We've done the WC by putting the cup back on the skimmer and running a line from it to a bucket to remove the water and let it skim super wet. This seems to accelerate the removal of the remaining Chemiclean.​

 

[Brew12]

IMHO the instances where people have trouble with ChemiClean is from that sharp decrease in pH.

I would point out that Knapp (from this forum) never had any appreciable change in his pH during his treatment. He also didn't have significant cyano. He was considering this a maintenance treatment. He uses a Durso drain which adds significant aeration along with a air stone (albeit fairly small). Looks like he has lost all his sps.

Hence the reason I am looking for peoples experience to see if there is a common thread on if Zoa toxins may have an impact. I don't think we will get a large enough sample size to learn anything significant, unfortunately.

 

[Lenny_S]

I saw Knapp's thread, I feel really bad for him.
I don't know why he didn't see a change in pH or how he monitors it. I can tell you that on at least 4 different systems that I have personally helped out with that all use either Apex or Reef Keeper, the pH dropped quickly even with very heavy aeration. We sat there and watched it.
I do subscribe to the hypothesis that zoas, as well as other soft corals can get stressed during the treatment and release toxins. And since you have to suspend the use of GAC, ChemiPure and the like, there is nothing to remove it. But I've never personally tested the hypothesis.

 

[Brew12]

I saw Knapp's thread, I feel really bad for him.
I don't know why he didn't see a change in pH or how he monitors it. I can tell you that on at least 4 different systems that I have personally helped out with that all use either Apex or Reef Keeper, the pH dropped quickly even with very heavy aeration. We sat there and watched it.
I do subscribe to the hypothesis that zoas, as well as other soft corals can get stressed during the treatment and release toxins. And since you have to suspend the use of GAC, ChemiPure and the like, there is nothing to remove it. But I've never personally tested the hypothesis.

Every place you find reviews for this product the vast majority of people love it. Unfortunately, they are sprinkled with people who have experienced complete disaster. I still haven't found anyone who had a tank crash that used it properly who didn't have zoas but it really isn't enough to make a solid connection.

 

[Untamedrose]

Clearly I'm missing some back story here...

Why do "we" think Having zoas vs not having them is The(or possible) veritable here when using this product.

 

[Lenny_S]

Every place you find reviews for this product the vast majority of people love it. Unfortunately, they are sprinkled with people who have experienced complete disaster. I still haven't found anyone who had a tank crash that used it properly who didn't have zoas but it really isn't enough to make a solid connection.

I have three 20 gallon tanks I got at the last $/gallon sale at Petco. I'm going to setup all 3 and test this out. The curiosity is killing me.

I'll have one with zoas and SPS, one with only SPS, and one with only SPS where I'll let the cyano really build up and won't follow any of the directions. I'll use all the same kind of SPS in all 3.

 

[Brew12]

Clearly I'm missing some back story here...

Why do "we" think Having zoas vs not having them is The(or possible) veritable here when using this product.

Purely anecdotal. I haven't seen anyone who used this product IAW the directions that experienced a die off event that didn't have zoa's. Wanted to pursue it a bit further.

 

[Brew12]

I have three 20 gallon tanks I got at the last $/gallon sale at Petco. I'm going to setup all 3 and test this out. The curiosity is killing me.

I'll have one with zoas and SPS, one with only SPS, and one with only SPS where I'll let the cyano really build up and won't follow any of the directions. I'll use all the same kind of SPS in all 3.

Many people with zoas use the product successfully so I wouldn't put your coral at risk. I probably should have just asked if anyone who used the product correctly and didn't have zoas experienced a tank crash.

 

[DeepBrew]

I've used Chemiclean twice in my 75 gallon tank. The first time the tank was about 6 months old and had recurring cyano problems which I tried to cure with reduced lighting, reduced feeding and manual removal. I ran a skimmer but no carbon or GFO at the time. During treatment I put two airstones in the display tank and another in the sump. The tank has a Durso standpipe so there's lots of gas exchange entering the sump as well. There are no SPS in the tank but I had no problems with zoas, softies or LPS. I did the recommended water change then let the skimmer run wet for a couple hours before it settled down.

Cyano went away for a couple months but came back with a vengeance. I really resisted using it again because I know it only treats the symptom, not the real problem. I had also resisted adding a carbon/GFO reactor but decided to try it. I manually removed as much cyano as possible, treated again just like before and let the skimmer run wet for a couple hours. All livestock seemed fine with this treatment too. After the skimmer settled down I turned on a new reactor with 2/3 carbon and 1/3 GFO mixed together. That's been about two months ago and I haven't seen any signs of cyano returning.

I didn't have any problems with Chemiclean but I hope I have my process figured out enough now that the chances of needing it are much less.

 

[Dom274]

I believe something else has to be going on. For the many of us who do not run full siphon drains we get more aeration than any air pump could provide. You would need to run an full blown air compressor to match that amount of aeration. I have read of several cases where people with Durso drains and running air pumps have wiped tanks. I have read where people with full siphon drains and didn't add extra aeration where there was no die off.
I probably won't find the answer but it doesn't mean I won't try digging into it further.

You do realize that your argument is entirely based off of anecdotal evidence? I can use the same argument to argue that smoking doesn't increase your chance of cancer: My neighbors Jim Bob and Sally Sue smoked 2 packs a day each for 60 years and never got a cold.

For the many of us who do not run full siphon drains we get more aeration than any air pump could provide.

Prove it. What is the DO ppm average for tanks running siphon drains? Follow up question 1: What is the DO level of a tank without a durso? Follow up question 2: What is the DO level of a tank with an air pump?

I suspect everyone's answers is the same as mine "I have absolutely no clue". Do you see where I'm going here?

 

[l8_apex_it]

For what it may be worth, I've never seen a noticeable change in pH (based on the graphs from my Apex controller). I also double the dose and add it all within 5 minutes. No losses yet and I've done this higher dosage the last 2 treatments.

 

[Brew12]

You do realize that your argument is entirely based off of anecdotal evidence? I can use the same argument to argue that smoking doesn't increase your chance of cancer: My neighbors Jim Bob and Sally Sue smoked 2 packs a day each for 60 years and never got a cold.

I'm pretty sure I do realize it or I wouldn't have said this.

Purely anecdotal. I haven't seen anyone who used this product IAW the directions that experienced a die off event that didn't have zoa's. Wanted to pursue it a bit further.

I have never made an argument in this thread, or any others regarding this topic. Asking a question is not the same thing as making an argument or accusation.
I would also point out that just because something is anecdotal doesn't mean it is wrong. Observation (otherwise known as anecdotal evidence) is typically the first step in the scientific process. You observe something and form a hypothesis. Prior to setting up any controlled experiments you do research, if possible, to see if you hypothesis can be easily proven wrong. Hence the reason I started this poll.

Prove it. What is the DO ppm average for tanks running siphon drains? Follow up question 1: What is the DO level of a tank without a durso? Follow up question 2: What is the DO level of a tank with an air pump?

Dissolved oxygen is impacted by much more than scfm of air pumped into the tank. That fact alone is probably why the level of aeration doesn't seem to play a part in peoples success using this product.
What I do know is that a large hobby air pump will deliver around 0.15 scfm. A single 1 1/4" PVC pipe with 1" bulkhead used in a properly balanced durso drain flowing 500gph requires over 10 times that level of air flow. If you don't believe that is accurate try feeding a durso drain with a positive displacement air pump. You will find it quickly backs the water up.

 

[Dom274]

I'm pretty sure I do realize it or I wouldn't have said this.

I have never made an argument in this thread, or any others regarding this topic. Asking a question is not the same thing as making an argument or accusation.
I would also point out that just because something is anecdotal doesn't mean it is wrong. Observation (otherwise known as anecdotal evidence) is typically the first step in the scientific process. You observe something and form a hypothesis. Prior to setting up any controlled experiments you do research, if possible, to see if you hypothesis can be easily proven wrong. Hence the reason I started this poll.

From the definition of "argument"

a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"
synonyms: reasoning, justification, explanation, rationalization

Dissolved oxygen is impacted by much more than scfm of air pumped into the tank. That fact alone is probably why the level of aeration doesn't seem to play a part in peoples success using this product.
What I do know is that a large hobby air pump will deliver around 0.15 scfm. A single 1 1/4" PVC pipe with 1" bulkhead used in a properly balanced durso drain flowing 500gph requires over 10 times that level of air flow. If you don't believe that is accurate try feeding a durso drain with a positive displacement air pump. You will find it quickly backs the water up.

Once again, prove it. DO is measured in ppm, where are your measurements? What equipment did you use? You can lecture me about the scientific method all you want, I'm quite familiar with it. I also understand the concept of KISS. What is more likely? A product has a secret critical flaw despite having overwhelming positive reviews and being made by a reputable company? Or people don't always follow directions/warnings? If half the users of a product have issues, or even if it was just a quarter, I would say there could be something worth investigating there. The 1 out of 10 or 20 people that have an issue, is to be expected. Look at how many people struggle with flat pack furniture for another example. Out of all of an item's negative reviews, how often is the item actually defective vs. people who simply didn't follow directions?

 

[twilliard]

We are all avoiding a few relevant questions in relation to the product.
What does chemiclean actually do?
What is the impact of the organic and biological life?
What is the relationship of this dead or dying organic biological life in comparison to the O2/Co2 relationship?

What happens with O2 in polluted water?
So for most all tanks we keep our waters stripped of high volume biological organic life (skimmers for instance)
The impact of chemiclean in such a tank will be minimal.

 

[Brew12]

From the definition of "argument"

a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"
synonyms: reasoning, justification, explanation, rationalization

Where have I ever said or tried to convince someone of anything in this thread? I'm collecting information based on observation. I am not trying to do anything that fits the definition of "argument". Please, if you are convinced that I am trying to convince people of something, post the quote of mine that lead you to this conclusion.

Once again, prove it. DO is measured in ppm, where are your measurements?

Why is DO measurement relevant? There is no minimum DO specification for the use of this product that they have listed. They only suggest aeration. Are you really trying to suggest that a Durso overflow does not provide aeration because we don't specifically measure DO?

As I have stated many times, this product seems to work great for the vast majority of users. What is wrong with trying to dig into why some people can follow the directions and still have problems with their tanks crashing?

 

[cginter]

I just got done treating my 180g with chemiclean. 2nd time I've used it but first time on the 180g. Everything went well. No deaths and the tank is much cleaner.

 

[cginter]

I used it primarily because I had algae or cyano covering some zoas and it was starting to cover the base of some sps. My tank is mostly sps dominate. I also use chemiclean as a zoa dip. I found that it brings back most zoas that looked pretty bad and had a film of algae on it. Although this time around my zoas still look pretty wilted as they did before the treatment. I'll give it a couple days before i report back