Debating between High end equipment or NOT? is there a justifiable difference?

[Vmacisback]

Lots of good info here! This post was really just a reality check for me when coming up with a equipment list for a new build. I have a top of the line skimmer on my tank and a Jebao pump. Lol. I feel like I’d be screwed if the pump went out rather the skimmer. Luckily both are doing great.

 

[BantyRooster97]

My reef tank has been up and running about 2 years, before that I've had fish only tanks off and on for 25+. I converted a fish only tank that had been running for 5-6 years to this reef tank. On my FO tank I ran a cheap non-name pond pump from ebay & today, it still runs strong (never cleaned it 1 time in 5-6yrs). I had a reef octopus 110 on it & it still works if I plug it in. I started with Hydor cheap pumps, they still work. I "upgraded" slightly to Jebao pumps, & they have all died, 1 by 1, after about 2 yrs (junk).

When I set up the reef tank I went a little higher end. Bought a Jebao 12000 return pump, Aquamaxx Skimmer & MP40 pumps. In less than 2 years the return pump quit & the pump on the skimmer died. MP40s still run strong.

So next I went higher end. I have a Vectra L1 return pump, LifeReef skimmer & new MP40s. We'll see how well they last.

With my current set up I went LifeReef because of the good reviews, but also because you can replace the pump very easily, with either cheap or high end (Sicce 7 on it now). I went higher end on the return (and over sized) because of my good experience with the MP40s. I only run my Vectra at about 60%.

In the end, I've seen low end stuff work well & so far higher end stuff work well. The middle of the road stuff seems to be junk,

 

[wesman42]

Lots of good info here! This post was really just a reality check for me when coming up with a equipment list for a new build. I have a top of the line skimmer on my tank and a Jebao pump. Lol. I feel like I’d be screwed if the pump went out rather the skimmer. Luckily both are doing great.

I have had a Jebao for 4 years now. It's still going strong and I have had absolutely 0 issues. The fact of the matter is, is that companies that gouge will find themselves being competitive with cheaper Chinese counterparts. Not only because they are gouging consumers, but because they know people have a lot of extra $$ sitting around and want something to spend it on.

I have a 300w....yes you read that correct...Viparspectra over one of my tanks.

The thing is 3 feet long and it's got an LCD screen. How much did it cost? $200.

Does it grow coral? Better than Radions (I had an XR30 that was over my biocube)....even on wattage alone. You'd need 10 Radions for the light output of this unit.

That's almost $8,000 on lights...yeah no thanks. I'd rather put a down payment on a BMW.

Nothing in this world justifies spending over $1000 on a skimmer. There are sooooo many alternatives...and it's not an overly critical piece of equipment if it fails.

The ONE area I will say that it is worth the price are the MP series power heads from ecotech.

 

[Support@GHLUSA Verified Sponsor]

I try to stay out of these types of discussions, as there are no winners. Tends to become a case of "he who screams loudest and is repeated the most is right(est)" - however I will leave you with an article from 2016 that highlights what we have been saying for years.

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/10/21/coral-excerpt-the-high-price-of-being-cheap/

I understand that a car is a car is a car, and many can't comprehend why one would spend $125,000 for a Mercedes when you can spend $38,000 for another marque - yes, both have wheels and abs and traction control.

But maybe and just maybe there is material choices, manufacturing knowledge, technological advances and safety systems that you pay for. I can tell you the ABS, traction control and other safety systems are much more responsive on that BMW and Mercedes than they are on the Lincoln Town car.

In turn; the Royal skimmer is made with much thicker materials, thicker materials = less shape distortion and issues, better fit and finish.
Time tested materials, not all acrylics are of same grade, not all PVCs are made the same, have the same chemical composure, some will react with saltwater or chems in saltwater. Not all metals are/are made the same.

Stainless steel has many different grades, and the cost varies greatly. Often the choice between low spec materials and high spec materials can double and triple at minimum the raw cost of the item in question.

To those who say that a skimmer cannot cost $100's to make - it's not just raw material cost, but also labor, machines & tooling, logistics and the personal required to make it all happen.

All of that said; my first skimmer was a RedSea Berlin, first pump was a little giant.

Purchase the equipment you're comfortable with spending - don't mortgage the house to acquire equipment that causes financial hardships. There are great choices out there, at every price point.

 

[slief]

I’m going to try the more economical methods moving forward. Case in point, bought a BK Mini 160 just over a year ago and the pump just siezed a week ago. I performed regular maintaince on it but it still said bye bye to me. You would like higher end items would last longer.

The motor used in that Mini 160 is made by Askoll in Italy and is arguably one of the best and most reliable AC blocks you can buy. There are countless people who have had the same block running for well over 10 years but when they do fail, there is usually a root cause which is typically friction which will overload the windings inside the block. That said, the single biggest cause of premature failure on those blocks is calcium buildup between the shaft and bearing in the bottom of the block that supports the end of the impeller shaft below the magnet. And the bearing is the most often overlooked point of maintenance. While it is mentioned in the manual, most people don’t pay much attention to it. Part of regular maintenance should include removing the bearing and cleaning it. If you take that pump completely apart (including removing the bearing) every 4-5 months, set the o-rings aside and give all the parts (except the o-rings) a 10 minute soak in vinegar followed by a good scrubbing inside and out and then rinse and reassemble, that will insure the pump lasts a long long time. I use a soft dish brush to clean the impeller and outside of the block and a toothbrush for the magnet cavity. When I do my pump maintance, they always look like new inside and out.

Now having said that, you may want to take the pump apart and remove the bearing and clean it. Especially the hole that the end of the impeller shaft goes into. Be sure to pay attention to the orientation of the bearing when you remove it. A piece of 1/2” PVC pipe can help getting the bearing back into place. Take some scotch brite and clean the end of the shaft below the magnet where it goes into the lower bearing. A tooth brush and or a tooth pick can be used to clean the hole in the bearing. There may be buildup inside the bearing that you can’t see and that can cause the pump to not spin up. So you may not have a dead pump but prolonged friction inside the motor can cause premature failure whether it’s a lack of bearing maintenance or even an object or snail getting sucked into the pump.

One other thing which may not apply to you but dosing kalk or even 2 part solutions near a pumps intake will speed up calcification inside any pump. It’s somthing that should be avoided near pumps intakes as calcification leads to friction inside the pump which can lead to premature failure. Below are some instructions for removing and installing the bearing at the base of the magnet cavity.

 

[mtraylor]

To keep it simple.
If you want a return pump that will run your manifold as well that you dont have to mess with you can get a reflo dart. Low energy cost. The seals have to be maintained. I have had mine running for over 4 years without doing anything to it. Just changed the regular dart out with my backup gold model so I could change seals. The gold is louder than the regular. Not sure the gold is worth the money. The regular dart is quiter and rock solid. At least this is the comparison between the 2 I have.

I really like Tunze's for movement in the aquarium. Rock solid.

 

[KJAG]

In regards to skimmers, you get what you pay for. Have had multiple skimmers over the years, Deltec, Warner Marine, Reef Octopus.. I was blown away when I bought a BubbleKing(Supermarin)
Wasn’t just a minor difference in observable quality. The craftsmanship, silence and output/ skimming capability are substantially superior. There are some exceptions though, isolated to certain types of equipment. I built my own sump, because frankly, sumps are just glued sections of acrylic. But in regards to mechanical filtration, you’re not just paying for a name.

 

[mrpizzaface]

For me the equipment is a huge part of my interest in this hobby. I love seeing peoples sumps and fishrooms as much or more than seeing the display. Equipment is a priority for me, so I tend to purchase expensive high end equipment. I recognize expensive equipment isn't necessary for success in this hobby, but that does not change my desire to obtain high end equipment.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

I agree, I guess the theory in this thread is what is gained by not going cheap with things like the return pump? Maybe piece of mind? I don’t necessarily sleep better at night knowing I spent too much on equipment to get a high end named brand. Those have problems as well. I would on the other hand feel good about spending a lot of money on a well built tank by a trusted manufacturer with a warranty of sorts. Just my opinion. It’s funny I’ve had my current sps tank going for about 3 years and my return pump is a Jebao dc that I thought would have crapped out within the first year.

On my last tank I ran an Ecotech M1 as the return. After about 6 months of use, the controller failed literally the day before I was going on vacation for 2 weeks (could've been worse and failed the day after I left). I was able to rig up a spare pump that I had, and everything did fine. Ecotech did send me a new pump and controller when I contacted them, so the customer service was great. That new controller ran great until my tank was wiped out by hurricane Irma 6 months later. Because of this experience, when I set up my new tank, the one piece of equipment that I would not skimp on was the return pump, so I purchased the best one on the market regardless of price which is the Abyzz A100. The price is ridiculous but it has a 10 year warranty, and gives me great peace of mind. I'm sure there are other pumps that would perform just as well, but I cannot have one fail while I'm out of town, and we like to travel...

 

[Dan_P]

To give some clarity on this thread I currently have a bubble king 180 with the speedy pump. It cost a little over $1k, I bought it cause I thought it was the best from a performance standpoint. I’m not saying it’s not doing a great job but I’m just wondering had I paid $350 for a skimmer instead would I see less performance and be upset with my “cheaper” purchase.

How do measure skimmer performance? For example, how are you determining the percent of the system’s dissolved organic material being removed per hour?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

The absolute silence of the Bubble Kings makes them worth the price imo. I've been wanting to get an Abyzz but just can't pull the trigger.

 

[mrpizzaface]

I try to stay out of these types of discussions, as there are no winners. Tends to become a case of "he who screams loudest and is repeated the most is right(est)" - however I will leave you with an article from 2016 that highlights what we have been saying for years.

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/10/21/coral-excerpt-the-high-price-of-being-cheap/

I understand that a car is a car is a car, and many can't comprehend why one would spend $125,000 for a Mercedes when you can spend $38,000 for another marque - yes, both have wheels and abs and traction control.

But maybe and just maybe there is material choices, manufacturing knowledge, technological advances and safety systems that you pay for. I can tell you the ABS, traction control and other safety systems are much more responsive on that BMW and Mercedes than they are on the Lincoln Town car.

In turn; the Royal skimmer is made with much thicker materials, thicker materials = less shape distortion and issues, better fit and finish.
Time tested materials, not all acrylics are of same grade, not all PVCs are made the same, have the same chemical composure, some will react with saltwater or chems in saltwater. Not all metals are/are made the same.

Stainless steel has many different grades, and the cost varies greatly. Often the choice between low spec materials and high spec materials can double and triple at minimum the raw cost of the item in question.

To those who say that a skimmer cannot cost $100's to make - it's not just raw material cost, but also labor, machines & tooling, logistics and the personal required to make it all happen.

All of that said; my first skimmer was a RedSea Berlin, first pump was a little giant.

Purchase the equipment you're comfortable with spending - don't mortgage the house to acquire equipment that causes financial hardships. There are great choices out there, at every price point.

Thanks for sharing this link, it was worth the read, and extremely informative.

 

[sghera64]

If I understand the nature of your question, it seeks to determine if there is a strong relationship between “money” and satisfaction - - specifically regarding skimmers and pumps.

My experience: I built a skimmer out of 4” PVC pipe and some acrylic (see pics). I’m sure I did a crappy job in design and build, but I get a lot of foam and skimmate. It is driven by a Venturi (old-school) made from part of a a Coke bottle. The key is that it is driven (over-driven) by an Iwaki MD-30. I don’t know if a $300-500 dollar skimmer would pull more proteins out. But, my N and P are so low already that I have to dose them chemically every day. Maybe I don’t even need a skimmer. If that’s the case, then I don’t need a $300 skimmer.

My internal pumps are Jebao’s (RW-20’s) in the DT and RW-8’s in the frag bins. They run just fine. They hold up for months running dirty because I lack getting to clean them. In 4 years, I’ve had to replace two because the internal windings failed. Would a $300 high-end Vertex or other internal pump not fail? I’ve heard people say theirs have. My Jebao’s have basic capabilities - no fancy programming sequences. My tank does not seem to miss it.

I guess when it comes to pumps and skimmers, you might get what you pay for, but perhaps most of what you pay for our tanks simply don’t need. These “over processed” items may be more for the “owner’s” emotional benefit than they are for the system’s.

Now for my return pump, its another Iwaki MD-30. In over 30 years, I’ve had one for sump return and one for skimmer. I’ve only had one fail in all that time. If paying extra goes into durability, then I’m sold. If it is for features that are not proven to be a factor in reef care, then . . . Why?

 

[davocean]

Silence, efficiency, dependability, lower watts/less heat from watts, that's what I'm looking for as well as performance, so I spend what I need to achieve that.

I also don't like the idea of buying junk that does not last, I'm one of those lets not just add to landfills people, so I buy things that last, pretty much in everything I buy.

 

[mrpizzaface]

When possible I prefer to purchase products made in the US, Europe, Canada or like. I will gladly pay more for a product made in the west over a similar Chinese product.

 

[shoelaceike]

I just purchased a Bubble Magus bm100 se which is rated for up to 185 gallons. It skims amazing, even on the first day, it is absolutely silent and costs $170 brand new. (It also is the first skimmer I have had that does not overflow when adding a new filter sock)

 

[Lousybreed]

I think a bigger discussion I’d the pricing of the high end equipment. Including R&D I think it’s almost price fixing that somehow everyone charges 700 for a decent fixture. But just like Jebao is doing in the pump industry companies are going to fill the void. Every new model Jebao pumps keep improving on performance and reliability. This is because of how overpriced the high end options are. Did you notice that Reefbrite dropped the price of their LED bars by like 15%? This is only due to lower priced completion. I don’t see the continued price pressure going up to continue.

 

[ca1ore]

How do measure skimmer performance? For example, how are you determining the percent of the system’s dissolved organic material being removed per hour?

There is no good answer (maybe you already know that). It's mostly people 'thinking' that one performs better than another (assuming sized properly). One can infer performance from the amount of skimmate removed, or measure things like nitrate and phosphate and correlate better numbers with skimmer efficiency. I suppose some folks might measure dissolved organics levels; I'd have not the foggiest idea how to do this. Fortunately it's unnecessary.

I paid a bit more for my skimmer to get better build quality (1/4 and 1/2" cell cast acrylic), not because I have any illusions that it will necessarily perform better but because I want it to last 20 years. Same for my return pump.

 

[mrpizzaface]

For most higher end products the pricing does reflect research and development costs and higher labor costs.
It seems to me that Jebao can be cheaper because they aren’t doing any research and development. They have much cheaper labor.
I don’t feel comfortable supporting a company that has no qualms with copying other companies designs. I don’t care how well these pumps work. The cost for these Chinese pumps is much higher than their price tag.

 

[Cory]

I feel you pay for quality. Performance is better in some cases but not a huge difference.