Deep Sand Bed

[Matt Carden]

I would get the live sand activator, nitrifying bacteria, mud, snails, bristle worms, macro. You may not need the nitrifying bacteria so get something else. I've been told that if you email them they might substitute something that isn't on the list also for instance they have trochus snails so they may substitute those.

 

[Marcom12]

Hmm ok. Looks interesting

 

[Scurvy]

I was quite happy with my order from IPSF. All aquacultured in Hawaii and has produced a thriving fuge in my very young tank. Started the system in late October. Added the IPSF stock the day before Thanksgiving. I realize you are looking for to help out a DSB and not a Fuge but I cant imagine any of what I added would hurt in your case.

I am running a bare bottom display but in the Fuge I used my own live sand, added the IPSF mud, live sand activator, Liquid N reducer, bristle worms, reef amphipods, micro brittle stars, Littorinid grazers and a baseball sized hunk of Chaeto.

Heres a couple of shots I just took. Approximately 8 weeks after adding. It is loaded with microfauna.

Everything Ive read suggests that refugiums often fail/stall when implementing on a new setup. This has not been the case for me at all. I beleive the ISPF mud and bacteria have had a lot to do with my early success in this system.

 

[Marcom12]

I've been considering a remote DSB, like in the basement.... And my sump and fuge under the tank.

 

[Frogger]

I have a deep bed 35 gallon reef tank with a plenum. The tank has been set up since 2001 when I moved to this house. I have a pistol shrimp that has been in the tank since 2002. He digs around in the sand bed and is constantly moving the sand around. In that time it has gone through major ups and downs (hair algae, bryopsis, planaria, dinos). Was that due to the deep sand bed or due to the lack of effort I put into the tank between 2006 to about 2014. Kids were young and had sports and other things and just didn't have time.

The tank is currently running well, I have corals in it that I have had in it for 15 plus years. The tank is now extremely stable and very low maintenance, run nothing but a skimmer on it. Nitrates and phosphates naturally are balanced. Question is do you want to wait 15 years to get it that way.

I am also running a basically bare bottom 75 gallon 3 year old reef tank that I would say is high maintenance. Likely because of the age.

Can't say which is better or worse comes down to personal preference.

 

[tony'stank]

I had a DSB of 5-6 inches for over 10 years. In this period I never added calcium and rarely changed water. My parameters were very stable. I had bristle worms, spaghetti worms, s, brittle stars and cucumbers. I occasionally siphoned detritus off the top layer, but never disturbed the deep layers. After ten years when I broke the tank down there was no bad odor.
If you can try and get a video of Dr Jean Jauberts lecture on DSB at the 2018 MACNA. He is the originator of the the DSB at the Monaco Aquarium more than 40 years age. I had a chance to talk to him. He no longer recommends a plenum.
If you do start a DSB make sure the substrate grain size is not too small. Use a medium grain size o 1-3mm. Do not use a plenum. Don’t waste your money on live sand. Any substrate will become live very quickly. If you do add Calcium be careful that your Ca levels don’t get too high. If they do, CaCO3 will precitate out and turn your top layer of sand into concrete.

 

[Marcom12]

I had a DSB of 5-6 inches for over 10 years. In this period I never added calcium and rarely changed water. My parameters were very stable. I had bristle worms, spaghetti worms, s, brittle stars and cucumbers. I occasionally siphoned detritus off the top layer, but never disturbed the deep layers. After ten years when I broke the tank down there was no bad odor.
If you can try and get a video of Dr Jean Jauberts lecture on DSB at the 2018 MACNA. He is the originator of the the DSB at the Monaco Aquarium more than 40 years age. I had a chance to talk to him. He no longer recommends a plenum.
If you do start a DSB make sure the substrate grain size is not too small. Use a medium grain size o 1-3mm. Do not use a plenum. Don’t waste your money on live sand. Any substrate will become live very quickly. If you do add Calcium be careful that your Ca levels don’t get too high. If they do, CaCO3 will precitate out and turn your top layer of sand into concrete.

See, everything I've read says use sugar fine sand or oolitic....

Right now I have just Aragonite.... Looks .. medium?

 

[tony'stank]

Sugar fine sand will compact and prevent flow to the deeper portions of the sand bed. This will prevent the breakdown of nitrate and nitrite to N and promote the formation of Hydrogen sulfite. Agronite is usually too coarse and cause channeling and buildup of detritus. Crushed coral of the proper size is the best option

 

[Matt Carden]

I have a 6" dsb with fine grain silicate beach sand

 

[Marcom12]

Is not using sugar fine sand an outdated thing? I find many "experts" consistently saying to use it?

 

[vlangel]

I was an aquarium tech who serviced tanks for the clients of the lfs that I worked at. I love DSBs! They are natural and lower maintenance than any other option. I usually had a brittle or serpent star in my tank to stir the top layer and nothing else was needed. My boss put DSBs in all the tanks he built, many of which were done 15-20 years ago and are still in operation now. I never knew of a single incident of them poisoning the tank.

Some folks don't like the looks of the sand along the glass as it colors and matures with worm tracks and such. That is really the only con I can think of in regards to a DSB. Personally I find that interesting but that is just me.

I tore down one of my tanks with a DSB that was 5 years old to upgrade. There was no bad odor, just the normal smell of clean salt water. Also the bottom half inch was darker than the rest of the sand. I am guessing that is where the anaerobic bacteria resided, which is interesting to me. I like encouraging denitrification as well as nitrification in my tanks. I will always have a DSB.

 

[Marcom12]

I was an aquarium tech who serviced tanks for the clients of the lfs that I worked at. I love DSBs! They are natural and lower maintenance than any other option. I usually had a brittle or serpent star in my tank to stir the top layer and nothing else was needed. My boss put DSBs in all the tanks he built, many of which were done 15-20 years ago and are still in operation now. I never knew of a single incident of them poisoning the tank.

Some folks don't like the looks of the sand along the glass as it colors and matures with worm tracks and such. That is really the only con I can think of in regards to a DSB. Personally I find that interesting but that is just me.

I tore down one of my tanks with a DSB that was 5 years old to upgrade. There was no bad odor, just the normal smell of clean salt water. Also the bottom half inch was darker than the rest of the sand. I am guessing that is where the anaerobic bacteria resided, which is interesting to me. I like encouraging denitrification as well as nitrification in my tanks. I will always have a DSB.

I personally will like the cross section view on the sides of the glass also... More to be fascinated with.

 

[garbled]

I've kept DSB's on all my tanks for eons now. You want the sand stirred, but not by sticks, by little creatures that dig around in it constantly making holes and pathways and moving the grains around a little bit at a time. You want amphipods, bristleworms, and maybe a cucumber if your tank is big enough (200+).

You specifically want to stay away from sand sifting gobies, or blue linkia starfish. Yes,they do sift the sand, but they do so, because they want to eat all the microfauna that lives in the sand making it a functional bed. A sandbed in a giant sized tank just cannot keep up with a goby, they will wipe it out. Same with mandarins.

The point isn't just to move the sand around, the point is that you want it moved around, and filled with life. Sterile stirred sand is purely decorative.

As for the H2S volcanoes, I think that is a myth. I guess if your bed was completely sterile, and compacted, and never moved for years, it might do that, but I've never actually seen evidence of one existing.

 

[Marcom12]

This is, in part, where I have gotten some of my info.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

 

[Marcom12]

I've kept DSB's on all my tanks for eons now. You want the sand stirred, but not by sticks, by little creatures that dig around in it constantly making holes and pathways and moving the grains around a little bit at a time. You want amphipods, bristleworms, and maybe a cucumber if your tank is big enough (200+).

You specifically want to stay away from sand sifting gobies, or blue linkia starfish. Yes,they do sift the sand, but they do so, because they want to eat all the microfauna that lives in the sand making it a functional bed. A sandbed in a giant sized tank just cannot keep up with a goby, they will wipe it out. Same with mandarins.

The point isn't just to move the sand around, the point is that you want it moved around, and filled with life. Sterile stirred sand is purely decorative.

As for the H2S volcanoes, I think that is a myth. I guess if your bed was completely sterile, and compacted, and never moved for years, it might do that, but I've never actually seen evidence of one existing.

I agree with stirred by critters not by hand... Just unsure how to employ it all correctly for that to happen.

 

[Marcom12]

Another question is where to find the sand I want once I finally pick which size I want.... Most places say things like "special grade" or nothing at all.... So it's hard to tell what size your getting and if it's consistent....

To be fair I haven't looked real hard yet.... This is from when I was originally buying my Aragonite... But suggestions on sources is always welcome.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/

How sandbed keeping turned out for the masses, not that outliers can't exist or be engineered. Specific pre planning around detritus has to be factored. Seeing what it takes to undo damage from sandbedding is a major planning step in my opinion.

It's no slight against sand, I've got a dsb as we speak as I think bare bottom looks too bare.

Sandbedding is a bell curve unless you specifically engineer a bed to last on its own. If you select a grain size, input some charger boosters of life, then run a fish display above it we'll see you in the sand rinse thread in a few

By bell curve (time until cyano wipe out and a life of nutrient tuning, chasing, thereafter) am meaning with nano-water volume it'll take between a year and three

And if a large tank, maybe 3-8 yrs, but that bell curve is there or our work wouldn't be perpetual.

Sandbeds seem ideal when at the peak positive part of the bell curve, the downside of it seeks out our thread.

I love my dsb, it's not allowed to have a bell curve, I removed that option. It will never be a source of invasion, and, I got worms-the best of both worlds can be had. Use sand, but use it in a way that makes you never need that thread.

 

[jda]

Nature and bacteria have not changed in 15 year, so what you see from Dr. Ron should be good still.

DSBs are in no way bad on their own. They can get bad after 5-10 years if reefers do not do their maintenance. This is a reefer problem, not a sand problem.

Sand from the ocean is phoshate free. Sand will bind an incredible amount of phosphate from the water column if allowed to rise. There is a lot of sand in the tank. This amount of sand can keep on binding phosphate and mask/hide bad maintenance from a reefer for quite some time. Once the sand gets pretty full, then the phosphate in the tank will rise. You will see posts about "time bombs" or "leeching phosphate," but both of these are inaccurate... what happened in that the reefer was doing a poor job (mostly that they did not know about) and the sand is unable to cover for them anymore.

How do you keep your sandbed going strong? First, get some cirtters... I like cucumbers and conchs to keep the top layer clean. Do not get any of these until you have some stuff in the sand for them to eat - wait 8-12 months. Reeftopia has both that are long lived and effective. Second, starting on about year four, I would vacuum 25% of it every 3 to 6 months to get the detritus out - while detritus is mostly benign of N and P, it can gum up the works. Third, get a good sand - I like the mixed grade one that MarcoRocks sells (I do not like their rock, but I like their sand). Fourth, keep your phosphate below .1 in the tank by changing water, skimming very heavy and having a fuge - use GFO if you need to. Keeping the P at this level will keep the aragonite from filling up with phosphate - which it binds to "equilibrium" with the water (phosphate rises and the sand binds more, lower the water level and it will release some).

The only thing that I have modified over the years from what Dr. Ron has said is that I have found that about 3" gets you all of the same benefits of complete nitrate elimination (once established) and also will support all of the same critters.

Understanding the relationship with aragonite binding to phosphate is key to having any successful reef, but even more paramount if using a good amount of sand.

 

[Frogger]

I have had success with my 35 gallon over the past 18 years, however my 240 gallon the deep sand bed became solid over the same time period and it was pain to take down 3 years ago. I believe it was the high calcium level combined with lack of sand sifters and maintenance that led to this problem

 

[Marcom12]

Nature and bacteria have not changed in 15 year, so what you see from Dr. Ron should be good still.

DSBs are in no way bad on their own. They can get bad after 5-10 years if reefers do not do their maintenance. This is a reefer problem, not a sand problem.

Sand from the ocean is phoshate free. Sand will bind an incredible amount of phosphate from the water column if allowed to rise. There is a lot of sand in the tank. This amount of sand can keep on binding phosphate and mask/hide bad maintenance from a reefer for quite some time. Once the sand gets pretty full, then the phosphate in the tank will rise. You will see posts about "time bombs" or "leeching phosphate," but both of these are inaccurate... what happened in that the reefer was doing a poor job (mostly that they did not know about) and the sand is unable to cover for them anymore.

How do you keep your sandbed going strong? First, get some cirtters... I like cucumbers and conchs to keep the top layer clean. Do not get any of these until you have some stuff in the sand for them to eat - wait 8-12 months. Reeftopia has both that are long lived and effective. Second, starting on about year four, I would vacuum 25% of it every 3 to 6 months to get the detritus out - while detritus is mostly benign of N and P, it can gum up the works. Third, get a good sand - I like the mixed grade one that MarcoRocks sells (I do not like their rock, but I like their sand). Fourth, keep your phosphate below .1 in the tank by changing water, skimming very heavy and having a fuge - use GFO if you need to. Keeping the P at this level will keep the aragonite from filling up with phosphate - which it binds to "equilibrium" with the water (phosphate rises and the sand binds more, lower the water level and it will release some).

The only thing that I have modified over the years from what Dr. Ron has said is that I have found that about 3" gets you all of the same benefits of complete nitrate elimination (once established) and also will support all of the same critters.

Understanding the relationship with aragonite binding to phosphate is key to having any successful reef, but even more paramount if using a good amount of sand.

I get that bacteria haven't changed [emoji16] but some used to use plemums... Then they don't recommend them anymore. I assume more data became available and the beliefs changed.. just wondered if anything like that has happened...

I'm still not positive on sand size .... And I thought I saw somewhere that Marcorock is not selling the sand anymore? I'll go look...