Deep Sand Bed

[Frogger]

There are no wrong or right answers. Reefers are successful with a deep sand bad, shallow sand bed and bare bottom. With and without a skimmer, algae scrubber, low nutrients, high nutrients.

At the end of the day it comes down to what you like. As I see it each one has benefits and disadvantages.

 

[Subsea]

I assure you, there are some wrong answers. Just look at the emergency threads on hobby forum.

With respect to style of reefkeeping, ones personalily has the most input. I am laid back as a Laissez Faire reefkeeper. I found dsb more maintenance than what I was interested in continuing to do. For me, a shallow sandbed is easier to maintain. Time management is my priority. I want to enjoy looking at it with the least amount of routine maintenance. To that end, I find it enjoyable to use janitors to perform in tank maintenancein using natural solutions involving appropriate critters for the job.

 

[Subsea]

@Marcom12

Here are some sandbed janitor candidates with a good read. The idea of micro fauna & fana processing detritus (organic & inorganic nutrients) into live food as larvae for corals “makes my day”.

http://chucksaddiction.thefishestate.net/cleanupcrew.html

 

[garbled]

Do you have a tank thread of your system? I saw the 800G build that you have embarked on.

I don't have one for my older tank. Quite honestly, it's a modest tank, that most people wouldn't be super impressed by. It doesn't even have fish in it right now, though I've been meaning to add some back. Lost my tang of 19 years last year, and just haven't had the heart to replace him.

I started the tank about.. 20 years ago, 125 with DSB, about 4" of agagonite. It got almost completely wiped out once by an AC failure that drove the temp over the 90's for a few days, but it's the same rocks and sandbed. I moved into a new house about 10-12 years ago, and moved the sand/rocks with the tank, and kept it all alive. Right now it just houses a few soft corals, because I was concentrating on the big tank for so long. But the bed is still alive and kicking. But I should note.. no water changes, umm, ever really.. I guess when I moved, that was a water change. And no skimmer. Just a DSB, and currently, a remote DSB with chaeto sump. I don't go around recommending my waterchange/skimmer methods to people, because I don't like to argue about it, and I want very specific results, and they aren't for everyone.

I assure you, there are some wrong answers. Just look at the emergency threads on hobby forum.

I cringe every time I see "I started the tank a month ago, added corals, and now I have this problem". I'm not kidding when I say I cycle tanks for nearly a year. I really do think that's the best method, but most people don't have my patience. I want my bed to be deeply stable by the time anything gets added.

 

[Frogger]

I assure you, there are some wrong answers. Just look at the emergency threads on hobby forum.

In regards to the perimeters I set forth later in that statement there have been successful reefers doing each and every one of them. Just as there are some disasters attempting each and every one of them.

 

[Subsea]

I don't have one for my older tank. Quite honestly, it's a modest tank, that most people wouldn't be super impressed by. It doesn't even have fish in it right now, though I've been meaning to add some back. Lost my tang of 19 years last year, and just haven't had the heart to replace him.

I started the tank about.. 20 years ago, 125 with DSB, about 4" of agagonite. It got almost completely wiped out once by an AC failure that drove the temp over the 90's for a few days, but it's the same rocks and sandbed. I moved into a new house about 10-12 years ago, and moved the sand/rocks with the tank, and kept it all alive. Right now it just houses a few soft corals, because I was concentrating on the big tank for so long. But the bed is still alive and kicking. But I should note.. no water changes, umm, ever really.. I guess when I moved, that was a water change. And no skimmer. Just a DSB, and currently, a remote DSB with chaeto sump. I don't go around recommending my waterchange/skimmer methods to people, because I don't like to argue about it, and I want very specific results, and they aren't for everyone.



I cringe every time I see "I started the tank a month ago, added corals, and now I have this problem". I'm not kidding when I say I cycle tanks for nearly a year. I really do think that's the best method, but most people don't have my patience. I want my bed to be deeply stable by the time anything gets added.

For certain, patience is a virtue and especially in reef keeping. I have been skimmerless for 35 years and seldom did water change except to vacuum sandbed. With zero water changes you might be accused of pioneering the Trenton Method. I think maybe the Chinese did it a few thousand years ago.

I also put more investment of time & money into the “little people” in charge of sandbed maintenance. My wife laughed at me after I received my first IndoPacific SeaFarm order. Following the directions from their website, I went into a walk in closet with a flashlight to see the Little People. Some required a white background and the light shined through the water and some required a black background and the light behind the critters in a bag. It was nighttime and I had the lights turned off in the master bedroom
walk-in closet as she walked in on me in the dark shinning a flashlight on a piece of paper. She didn’t say a word, just waliked away laughing.

 

[jda]

I also agree that there are some wrong answers and that "everybody gets a trophy for showing up" does not work with dead fish and corals. With a sand bed, the distinction of success and failure is actually quite simple... maintenance or not. Unfortunately, the people who don't maintain them oft don't have the personal awareness to know that they are bad at their craft and were the issue... kinda like the people who do not know that they are bad parents (we have all seen them, right?). Be careful whom you take advice from and whose examples that you want to follow - those that have awareness are the ones to copy and listen to.

Tanks do take about a year to fully cycle. Ammonia and nitrite processing can be fast, but getting nitrate processing is most time consuming but this is when the cycle is complete.

 

[Frogger]

I also agree that there are some wrong answers and that "everybody gets a trophy for showing up" does not work with dead fish and corals.

Knowledge is our friend. The more you know the more likely you are to make better choices that will improve your chance of success.

Don't get me wrong, having kept a reef tank for over 25 years and fish for 35 years I have very strong opinions about what works best for me. I have tried many approaches over those years, some worked some didn't. But reading this forum I come to the conclusion that reefers have had great success doing just about every method. Reefers on this forum have had success dosing bleach into their tanks. I would never had guessed that this would work.

Personally I would not likely go with a deep sand bed again for various reasons. But that doesn't mean I will be taking mine down anytime soon.

 

[jda]

I do not agree. You might be able to find a person or two that has had success with any method, but some are just outliers. You odds of having multi-millions of dollars are still better by being smart, saving and working hard since about 36,000,000 have figured this out, rather than trying to win the lottery - if being a millionaire is a goal, thinking that both have an equal chance of working is foolish.

 

[Frogger]

I do not agree. You might be able to find a person or two that has had success with any method, but some are just outliers. You odds of having multi-millions of dollars are still better by being smart, saving and working hard since about 36,000,000 have figured this out, rather than trying to win the lottery - if being a millionaire is a goal, thinking that both have an equal chance of working is foolish.

This is the great thing about this hobby is everyone is entitled to there own ways on how to run a successful reef tank. I do not disagree with your statements or your methods, but they are not all necessarily the ones that work best for me. The ones that work best for me likely would not work well for you.

 

[Jay Norris]

I don't have one for my older tank. Quite honestly, it's a modest tank, that most people wouldn't be super impressed by. It doesn't even have fish in it right now, though I've been meaning to add some back. Lost my tang of 19 years last year, and just haven't had the heart to replace him.

I started the tank about.. 20 years ago, 125 with DSB, about 4" of agagonite. It got almost completely wiped out once by an AC failure that drove the temp over the 90's for a few days, but it's the same rocks and sandbed. I moved into a new house about 10-12 years ago, and moved the sand/rocks with the tank, and kept it all alive. Right now it just houses a few soft corals, because I was concentrating on the big tank for so long. But the bed is still alive and kicking. But I should note.. no water changes, umm, ever really.. I guess when I moved, that was a water change. And no skimmer. Just a DSB, and currently, a remote DSB with chaeto sump. I don't go around recommending my waterchange/skimmer methods to people, because I don't like to argue about it, and I want very specific results, and they aren't for everyone.



I cringe every time I see "I started the tank a month ago, added corals, and now I have this problem". I'm not kidding when I say I cycle tanks for nearly a year. I really do think that's the best method, but most people don't have my patience. I want my bed to be deeply stable by the time anything gets added.

You are correct in your views of cycling a system for at least a year, especially if you are using live sand and rock collected freshly from the ocean.

 

[hart24601]

I am all for people keeping what they like, it’s your tank and keep it the way you like it! Everything has pros/cons and just be flexible with what those are and don’t get in the school of thought that ____ has no cons or nothing to watch out for.

I do take some issues with the natural/unnatural idea when it comes to the hobby though.

To me nothing is more unnatural thank a box of water in my living room thousand(s) of miles away from the ocean and kept alive with thousand(s) of watts of electricity! We can make it look like something that seems natural to each individual, but it’s in a completely unnatural place kept alive by totally unnatural life support – which makes me question why we would want to try and emulate what we consider natural in a wholly unnatural system. Some process will work, some won’t.

We also have a habit in this hobby of combining very different things into the same system. Species of coral from the reefcrest where the flow is so intense there isn’t any sand in the same tank as lagoon LPS or softie that literally sits in mud, fish from all those environments and then things like clams, where fish are quite infrequent – and we are surprised they don’t all work great together.

Again if a person likes something, like looking at critters in a sand bed, that is all the reason they need! Do what you like, but I wouldn’t try and justify it beyond personal appeal.

People have now had great tanks with and without just about every method out there – some are a bit more work and some less. In the end it’s just not a big deal if one pay attention to the system and dedicates the time and energy needed no matter how hard we all try to justify what method we pick to ourselves and others.

 

[Jason Coy]

I prefer to have a sand bed as I like to keep critters that require one. If I was to setup a strictly SPS tank I may consider going bare bottom and let encrusting corals cover the bottom. For me bare bottom versus sand bed comes down to what you want to keep in the tank. Jawfish and sand sifting gobies sand is a must. If the only sand dwelling critters you desire are wrasses that bury in the sand you could still go bare bottom and put a container of sand that they will use to bury. I agree that you can have a successful tank either way but some may require more time and money than others.
Jason

 

[icemansixty9]

Mine has been up for 15 years in my 600

 

[Hermie]

super great advice in this thread

 

[Hermie]

I assure you, there are some wrong answers. Just look at the emergency threads on hobby forum.

With respect to style of reefkeeping, ones personalily has the most input. I am laid back as a Laissez Faire reefkeeper. I found dsb more maintenance than what I was interested in continuing to do. For me, a shallow sandbed is easier to maintain. Time management is my priority. I want to enjoy looking at it with the least amount of routine maintenance. To that end, I find it enjoyable to use janitors to perform in tank maintenancein using natural solutions involving appropriate critters for the job.

Sorry to OP if I am thread jacking, sort of in a similiar situation...

I have a new nano tank (20H) with a partial RUGF, about 1/3 of the bottom. It's right now about 3" and I wasn't sure if I should add substantially more aragonite sand on top... What do you think? I am thinking no... 3" is close to the 2" you mentioned and there's no way for me to know if denitrification is happening without testing, which I'm not interested in doing atm. I mainly like the idea of water flow going through a lot of substrate to help buffer pH and to somewhat eject detritus to help keep it clean. I saw someone else had success with a much larger version with crushed coral in a separate 10 gal "fuge." Basically my options are either add more sand to increase depth, or increase or decrease flow through the rugf.

 

[Subsea]

Sorry to OP if I am thread jacking, sort of in a similiar situation...

I have a new nano tank (20H) with a partial RUGF, about 1/3 of the bottom. It's right now about 3" and I wasn't sure if I should add substantially more aragonite sand on top... What do you think? I am thinking no... 3" is close to the 2" you mentioned and there's no way for me to know if denitrification is happening without testing, which I'm not interested in doing atm. I mainly like the idea of water flow going through a lot of substrate to help buffer pH and to somewhat eject detritus to help keep it clean. I saw someone else had success with a much larger version with crushed coral in a separate 10 gal "fuge." Basically my options are either add more sand to increase depth, or increase or decrease flow through the rugf.

If denitrification is your primary goal than the generalization is correct. First, you will never know where denitrification is happening as an export mechanism because just as many other organisms will use it in their biomass tying the nutrients up into your living coral & fish biomass.

 

[Tom Giddens]

Any suggestions on which 9? Lol

https://www.saltwaterfish.com/category-reef-packages

 

[Tom Giddens]

Where can I get a critter pack for a sand bed?

https://www.saltwaterfish.com/category-reef-packages

 

[garbled]

https://www.saltwaterfish.com/category-reef-packages

So this is where I differ from alot of people in sandbed maintenance. There are two schools of thought on DSB's:

1) Keep it physically clean. Vacuum it, use sand sifting stars and gobies. Don't let it clump up, don't let it get dirty, keep it moving around, stir it if you must.

2) Keep it stirred with microfauna. It will be uglier, and slightly dirty looking. Don't add anything that is a sandbed predator. Let the bugs and worms stir the sand. Don't stir it by hand. Don't vacuum. That just kills things. If your sandbed isn't stirred enough, you need more bugs and worms.

The packages Tom linked are for the first method. I personally prefer the second method. The two methods are *not* compatible. If you add a sand sifting star or a goby to a method 2 tank, you have a method 1 tank, because they will wipe out the microfauna.

Because I use method 2, here is the list of stuff that is banned from my tank:

Almost all crabs other than 1-2 mithrax.
ALL hermit crabs
ALL sand sifting gobies
ALL starfish
Dragonets, pipefish, mandarins
Some wrasses (there are too many too list here, the stuff that hunts in the sand though is bad, the sand sleepers are ok)
Pretty much anything that comes in a "sandbed" or "reef maintenance" pack.

Worth noting, peppermint shrimp are kinda on the list of "you shouldn't use them with a sandbed" animals, but the apstaisa thing is generally a bigger problem than the fact they are general sandbed predators, so.. ehh.