Deep Sand Bed

[Marcom12]

With so many different & often conflicting viewpoints it does get confusing to flush out fact & fiction. Often both are true for the systems in operation, which brings me to, “what do you want for a reef tank”.

For the first ten years in this hobby I vacillated between experiments. Working overseas on a 28 day on/off schedule pushed me into thinking long term. It all came together after reading John Tullock’s book, The Natural Reef Aquarium. His main theme was inhabitants compatiable in a captive reef tank and
“Less Technology / More Biology.

You should set up a small display tank with the critters in the sandbed. I did a 10G tank with no fish. Only sandbed critters and decorative macro with ghost shrimp. As I drank my first cup of coffee, I feed the tank. It was enjoyable to watch pods grab flakes bigger then they were. When ghost shrimp would eat red or green flakes, you could see the colors of the food as it entered the intestines. Later, I added mollies which reproduced live fry. The pods were bigger than the baby mollies.

This is frustrating too..... Pic attached.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

The coralline is not unnatural... I just can't find anywhere where the bottom of the ocean is just coralline.

well it depends on what you want your aquascape to represent. A sandy bottom with coral nearby, or a reef face well above the bottom?

Where's the sandy bottom here?

 

[Subsea]

This is frustrating too..... Pic attached.

Too much money for a book on a budget, but I made good money and had bought > $10k in system livestock which included the janitors, both detrivore, herbivore & carnivore. IndoPacific SeaFarm is a great source for aquacultured critters. I bought my start of Red Ogo, Gracilaria Parvispora, which I grew in a 10K gallon tank in a greenhouse. When your budget can handle it, another great source for micro fauna & fana is diver collected live rock from the Gulf of Mexico.

http://www.gulfliverock.com/premium-decorative-rock.html

 

[Subsea]

https://www.petcha.com/emulating-nature-the-reef-habitat-tank/

You should find this of some interest in your journey into what has become addicting to me. Reefkeeping relaxes me and challenges me to know more. After 48 years, I still get excited to see red flake food inside of a clear shrimp, just call me a reefer forever. For me, there is beauty in seeing how everything works and I do enjoy tweeting things.

Keep up the passion. It will serve you well.

 

[Subsea]

well it depends on what you want your aquascape to represent. A sandy bottom with coral nearby, or a reef face well above the bottom?

Where's the sandy bottom here?

Have you had an opportunity to dive any of those locations? I marvel at your knowledge of phycology. What is your profession? I do so much enjoy your post. I hope you took my bare bottom comment in the good humor that it was intended.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Have you had an opportunity to dive any of those locations?

I've lived on the coast all my life; swam, surfed, fished, snorkled, etc, but only dived once, at Treasure island Fiji

snorkling there was better than diving. I've naturally snorkled the GBR as well of course.

I hope you took my bare bottom comment in the good humor that it was intended.

No Subsea, that made me very, very angry :mad:

 

[Subsea]

http://chucksaddiction.thefishestate.net/hitchhikers.html

This guy has dove many reefs. His website has much detailed information on sandbed critters & hitch hikers on live rock.

@Marcom12
If you need more on your reading list I’ll link you to it. Just ask.

 

[Marcom12]

well it depends on what you want your aquascape to represent. A sandy bottom with coral nearby, or a reef face well above the bottom?

Where's the sandy bottom here?

lol I'm not trying to argue the point... just my personal preference in a reef tank would be to have some sand. the DSB concept appealed/appeals to me simply for a few reasons.
1. I like sand... its visually appealing to me... seeing tanks with bare bottoms/ just coralline algea just doesnt trip my visual trigger. most likely because there is no sand.
2. I have read, either correctly or incorrectly, that a DSB had beneficial attributes

Combining the two points sounded like a great idea, but by starting this thread I seem to be learning that it might not be the only way... and have accomplished, even if only in part, my main objective, which was to attempt to learn

 

[Marcom12]

http://chucksaddiction.thefishestate.net/hitchhikers.html

This guy has dove many reefs. His website has much detailed information on sandbed critters & hitch hikers on live rock.

@Marcom12
If you need more on your reading list I’ll link you to it. Just ask.

Honestly, I'd love any links you can give. Either privately or here in the thread in case others want to see them [emoji16] it's much appreciated by me at the very least.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

lol I'm not trying to argue the point... just my personal preference in a reef tank would be to have some sand. the DSB concept appealed/appeals to me simply for a few reasons.
1. I like sand... its visually appealing to me... seeing tanks with bare bottoms/ just coralline algea just doesnt trip my visual trigger. most likely because there is no sand.
2. I have read, either correctly or incorrectly, that a DSB had beneficial attributes

Combining the two points sounded like a great idea, but by starting this thread I seem to be learning that it might not be the only way... and have accomplished, even if only in part, my main objective, which was to attempt to learn

Cool. A sandbed can look very nice. But for many people they are just a catalyst for algae & cyano problems, & the sandbed don't look so pretty when this happens.

 

[Marcom12]

Cool. A sandbed can look very nice. But for many people they are just a catalyst for algae & cyano problems, & the sandbed don't look so pretty when this happens.

I get that also.... But I don't mind it looking a little...... Unpretty.... If it's because of tons of fun critters to watch and look at along with biological processes.... But again.. to each their own... And at this point In my saltwater journey, I'd like sand of some sort . I very well may change my mind in the future... But that's part of my learning and experience [emoji16]

 

[Scrubber_steve]

2. I have read, either correctly or incorrectly, that a DSB had beneficial attributes

Practically speaking, there necessary for keeping certain kinds of fish & inverts of course.
For filtration purposes they provide lots of surface area for nirtifying & denitrifying bacteria to colonize, but there are better ways to go about inorganic nutrient export.

 

[Marcom12]

Practically speaking, there necessary for keeping certain kinds of fish & inverts of course.
For filtration purposes they provide lots of surface area for nirtifying & denitrifying bacteria to colonize, but there are better ways to go about inorganic nutrient export.

So I'm hearing. And welcome learning about it.

 

[garbled]

I highly highly recommend indo pacific sea farms. All of my tanks have been seeded with the amazing mud and various critters they sell. Not only was I astounded at the quantity of life in one of their bags of mud, but most of it is still in my various tanks, going on years after years. I still find spaghetti worms in my sandbed 5 years after seeding it..

My recommendation is simple:

Make a DSB, use whatever size sand you want, they all have plusses and minuses, though I wouldn't go super small.
Put in some live rock, some dead too if you want.
Add a chaeto sump.
Wait a month or so for things to stabilize. Probably don't bother with the lights, or run them low.
Seed the bed with a bunch of stuff from IPSF. Also if you can find other vendors of sandbed goodness, mis it up, add things from all kinds of places, other peoples tanks, etc. Diversity is king.
Set an autofeeder up to feed some pellets at night.
Wait a month.
Set the lights up, but run them on low power.
Let the tank cycle for 2-6 months. (the longer the better) Keep autofeeding the sand the whole time. Keep up on your maintenance, don't slack off. Keep all your parameters stable, nitrates, phosphates, dKH, everything. Keep the algae at bay, use trochus snails, etc.
Start stocking the tank slowly. Start with things that you need to keep the tank healthy first, like a rabbitfish, or peppermint shrimp if needed for aipstaisia. (You can add these earlier if you have to, but be aware, shrimp are general predators of sandbed critters, so don't add them unless you have to)
Enjoy a rock solid reef.

 

[Marcom12]

I highly highly recommend indo pacific sea farms. All of my tanks have been seeded with the amazing mud and various critters they sell. Not only was I astounded at the quantity of life in one of their bags of mud, but most of it is still in my various tanks, going on years after years. I still find spaghetti worms in my sandbed 5 years after seeding it..

My recommendation is simple:

Make a DSB, use whatever size sand you want, they all have plusses and minuses, though I wouldn't go super small.
Put in some live rock, some dead too if you want.
Add a chaeto sump.
Wait a month or so for things to stabilize. Probably don't bother with the lights, or run them low.
Seed the bed with a bunch of stuff from IPSF. Also if you can find other vendors of sandbed goodness, mis it up, add things from all kinds of places, other peoples tanks, etc. Diversity is king.
Set an autofeeder up to feed some pellets at night.
Wait a month.
Set the lights up, but run them on low power.
Let the tank cycle for 2-6 months. (the longer the better) Keep autofeeding the sand the whole time. Keep up on your maintenance, don't slack off. Keep all your parameters stable, nitrates, phosphates, dKH, everything. Keep the algae at bay, use trochus snails, etc.
Start stocking the tank slowly. Start with things that you need to keep the tank healthy first, like a rabbitfish, or peppermint shrimp if needed for aipstaisia. (You can add these earlier if you have to, but be aware, shrimp are general predators of sandbed critters, so don't add them unless you have to)
Enjoy a rock solid reef.

See, here lies my dilemma.... What you say is in direct conflict with Subsea.... And like he stated, your probably both right lol [emoji16]

 

[Subsea]

See, here lies my dilemma.... What you say is in direct conflict with Subsea.... And like he stated, your probably both right lol [emoji16]

It is not really in direct conflict with what I said. I said it is not necessary to have a dsb to maintain diversity in sandbed janitors. I assure you, sandbed critters will thrive in 2” as well as 6”. Granted some large sandbed critters can not be maintained but there are many good ones.

 

[garbled]

See, here lies my dilemma.... What you say is in direct conflict with Subsea.... And like he stated, your probably both right lol

That's the thing about this, we are both right more or less.

My method works. It produces a certain set of results. I presume his method works, and also produces a certain set of results. A bare bottom tank works, so do all other kinds of things. Each one produces different results, but all can lead to healthy tanks.

What it comes down to, is what do you want? My method is really about making the sandbed the center of the whole tank. I concentrate on the life in the bed. The fish are just some decorative stuff that floats around above it.

What interests you about keeping a reef? Are you interested in the microfauna in a sandbed? Are you interested in trying to achieve some kind of natural balance? Do you want lots of pretty fish? Do you want SPS and everything else in the tank is there to keep them alive? What makes this hobby interesting to you? Your questions seem to indicate that maybe a sandbed is interesting to you. If so, do that! If not, do something else.

Alot of people are going to answer you with "this method makes my corals pop" or "I feel this method works and provides this or that benefit". If you just want a reef, then yeah, go with that. But if you want to explore a different part of the hobby, then just do it. There are no guarantees. Try it out, enjoy the hobby, learn about what you want to learn about.

I read lots of different opinions, read a few books, stared at things, and then I decided, well, I like this part, and I believe this part of what that guy said, but not the other thing, and I don't think this works like that, so, lets try this mismash of ideas. Turns out that worked too.

 

[Marcom12]

It is not really in direct conflict with what I said. I said it is not necessary to have a dsb to maintain diversity in sandbed janitors. I assure you, sandbed critters will thrive in 2” as well as 6”. Granted some large sandbed critters can not be maintained but there are many good ones.

Fair enough.

 

[Marcom12]

That's the thing about this, we are both right more or less.

My method works. It produces a certain set of results. I presume his method works, and also produces a certain set of results. A bare bottom tank works, so do all other kinds of things. Each one produces different results, but all can lead to healthy tanks.

What it comes down to, is what do you want? My method is really about making the sandbed the center of the whole tank. I concentrate on the life in the bed. The fish are just some decorative stuff that floats around above it.

What interests you about keeping a reef? Are you interested in the microfauna in a sandbed? Are you interested in trying to achieve some kind of natural balance? Do you want lots of pretty fish? Do you want SPS and everything else in the tank is there to keep them alive? What makes this hobby interesting to you? Your questions seem to indicate that maybe a sandbed is interesting to you. If so, do that! If not, do something else.

Alot of people are going to answer you with "this method makes my corals pop" or "I feel this method works and provides this or that benefit". If you just want a reef, then yeah, go with that. But if you want to explore a different part of the hobby, then just do it. There are no guarantees. Try it out, enjoy the hobby, learn about what you want to learn about.

I read lots of different opinions, read a few books, stared at things, and then I decided, well, I like this part, and I believe this part of what that guy said, but not the other thing, and I don't think this works like that, so, lets try this mismash of ideas. Turns out that worked too.

I think that's what I'm trying to figure out. Learning and asking questions.

 

[Subsea]

That's the thing about this, we are both right more or less.

My method works. It produces a certain set of results. I presume his method works, and also produces a certain set of results. A bare bottom tank works, so do all other kinds of things. Each one produces different results, but all can lead to healthy tanks.

What it comes down to, is what do you want? My method is really about making the sandbed the center of the whole tank. I concentrate on the life in the bed. The fish are just some decorative stuff that floats around above it.

What interests you about keeping a reef? Are you interested in the microfauna in a sandbed? Are you interested in trying to achieve some kind of natural balance? Do you want lots of pretty fish? Do you want SPS and everything else in the tank is there to keep them alive? What makes this hobby interesting to you? Your questions seem to indicate that maybe a sandbed is interesting to you. If so, do that! If not, do something else.

Alot of people are going to answer you with "this method makes my corals pop" or "I feel this method works and provides this or that benefit". If you just want a reef, then yeah, go with that. But if you want to explore a different part of the hobby, then just do it. There are no guarantees. Try it out, enjoy the hobby, learn about what you want to learn about.

I read lots of different opinions, read a few books, stared at things, and then I decided, well, I like this part, and I believe this part of what that guy said, but not the other thing, and I don't think this works like that, so, lets try this mismash of ideas. Turns out that worked too.

I remember laying on my stomach with a lighted magnifying glass looking at critters in my mud refugium with grandkids.

Do you have a tank thread of your system? I saw the 800G build that you have embarked on.

Here are my two display tank journals.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/wet-salty-for-christmas-2017.428100/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...m-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/