Deep Sand Bed
- Thread starter Marcom12
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I think that most plenums disappeared when people figured out that you can denitrify just as well without them.
I feel you. It is kind like cooking rock. What was good a decade ago is still good, so not much new to type.
People get mad when I say this, but some of it is just this current generation of reefers who don't understand as much of how a tank works. If there is not a BRS video on it or a way to monitor it with an Apex, then they have no idea how stuff functions. The people that know are either kicking butt and keep to themselves since they don't need much, or have a smaller presence on the boards.
In all honesty, nearly everything that was good when you did this before is still good. There are additional things that you might want to add on, but if you ran a tank today the exact same way that you ran it before, then you can be super successful. The only thing that I have added in the last decade is a Tunze ATO, and I waited years and years before I trusted them... still 3 inch sand bed, lots of real ocean live rock, heavy skimming, CaRx, no controller, Metal Halides, Tunze flow pumps. I would not trade this kind of success or ease for anything else.
People get mad when I say this, but some of it is just this current generation of reefers who don't understand as much of how a tank works. If there is not a BRS video on it or a way to monitor it with an Apex, then they have no idea how stuff functions. The people that know are either kicking butt and keep to themselves since they don't need much, or have a smaller presence on the boards.
In all honesty, nearly everything that was good when you did this before is still good. There are additional things that you might want to add on, but if you ran a tank today the exact same way that you ran it before, then you can be super successful. The only thing that I have added in the last decade is a Tunze ATO, and I waited years and years before I trusted them... still 3 inch sand bed, lots of real ocean live rock, heavy skimming, CaRx, no controller, Metal Halides, Tunze flow pumps. I would not trade this kind of success or ease for anything else.
thank you [emoji16]Subsea
5000 Club Member
I just disassembled a 25 year old dsb with a Jaubert Plenum and modified it to a reverse flow undergravel filter.
Why do you want a dsb? IMO, anything deeper than 2” is unnecessary and potentially dangerous.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...p-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/page-11
Frogger
Active Member
Yes but back in 2001 when I set mine up plenums were the rage and it cannot be removed now.
Jaubert told me at Macna this year that his first plenum was because he had shut the undergravel filter down and just left it in his sand bed when he did his first experiments. Everyone just assumed that the space under his under-gravel filter was part of the reason it worked at de-nitrifying.
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Marcom12
Active Member
Not sure what else to add to my original post on why I want one?
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Marcom12
Active Member
And that was kinda my point in asking if DSB mentality has changed or improved or whatever. Considering most stuff I find seems quite old.
Subsea
5000 Club Member
Do you only want people to agree with your thoughts or do you want real world experience with someone that maintained a dsb for 25 years.
Everything you said in first post can be done with a 2” sandbed. What do you expect to achieve with 6” or more of substrate, that can’t be done with 2”, because with increased sandbed depth comes the very real danger of a sandbed crashing.
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Marcom12
Active Member
I came seeking information... I don't know enough about DSB vs. shallow sand beds.....
I don't want anyone to agree with my thoughts for the simple fact that I don't know my thoughts yet... Was the purpose of the thread.
I guess I'll try to elaborate on my reasons for thinking I might want one.
I like the look of thicker sand... Simply for the fact of seeing the cross section of the sand bed and the critters.
I also have read a few places that a dab properly maintained is a good thing in your tank.
I don't like a bare bottom look... Some do, I don't...
If I can accomplish the same thing with 5" sand bed as with a 2" sand bed then I'd question why anyone would do a thicker one. As I've said I don't know enough about the differences yet to tell you the scientific reasons but the general idea has me interested and I'd like to learn and then make an informed decision.
I hope I have clarified?
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Marcom12
Active Member
I could say some things like nitrification that happens at deeper levels but I don't know enough YET to know if I'm talking out my behind yet.... As stated in first post I was hoping to find some easily accessible info, and possibly newer information than what I had found on my own.
Subsea
5000 Club Member
So that you can know enough to ask specific questions please read some of this thread.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...m-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/
The tank has seen little change in 25 years. Jaubert Plenum was designed to use facultative bacteria in a low oxygen environment to perform denitrification biochemistry. Substrate was 6” deep with false bottom making a Plenum under substrate. Plenum performed well until the introduction of Melanarious Wrasse to control Red Planaria, which unknown to me eliminated my detrivore crew. With a 6” dsb with 25 years of detritus, I made the major decision to vacum sandbed down to < 2”.
After removing several hundred pounds of substrate while syphoning out over 500G of water over a two week time period, I now have a thriving mixed garden with ornamental sponges and ornamental macro along with numerous other filter feeders including flame scallops and numerous fans & feathers that I have no clue to the name, but I consider it a healthy bioindicator.
PS. I will be happy to discuss dsb & reefing on your or my thread.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...m-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/
The tank has seen little change in 25 years. Jaubert Plenum was designed to use facultative bacteria in a low oxygen environment to perform denitrification biochemistry. Substrate was 6” deep with false bottom making a Plenum under substrate. Plenum performed well until the introduction of Melanarious Wrasse to control Red Planaria, which unknown to me eliminated my detrivore crew. With a 6” dsb with 25 years of detritus, I made the major decision to vacum sandbed down to < 2”.
After removing several hundred pounds of substrate while syphoning out over 500G of water over a two week time period, I now have a thriving mixed garden with ornamental sponges and ornamental macro along with numerous other filter feeders including flame scallops and numerous fans & feathers that I have no clue to the name, but I consider it a healthy bioindicator.
PS. I will be happy to discuss dsb & reefing on your or my thread.
Subsea
5000 Club Member
Great post.
I have found that as my reef tank matures there is no need for denitrification chemistry. Therefore no need for a dsb which when neglected will crash. I prefer to design out anaerobic chemisty from my systems. All the critters in a 6” sandbed can be maintained in a 2” bed. To ensure no anaerobic chemistry, I installed a reverse flow up through the sandbed.
As a minimalist reefkeeper of 48 years, I find that works best for me.
Anything that is neglected will crash... I will not run a tank without a 3 inch sandbed, but I do my job as a responsible keeper.
Scrubber_steve
2500 Club Member
My bare bottom had coralline algae grow completely over it. Whats unnatural about that?
Subsea
5000 Club Member
A pink bare bottom is a sight for sore eyes. I dare not say more.
My computer skills are lacking. I tried to erase the humor @Scrubber_steve expense.
As jda & others have pointed out, nothing has changed as to how dsb work. All substrate in Aquarium require maintenance. Sandbed janitors are mandatory but the reefkeeper is the ultimate janitor. All sandbeds, shallow or deep, should be lightly gravel vacuumed as required.
However, since those days we have learned so much more. In a mature reef tank, the living biomass will become your biofilter. In my tanks, I feed heavy and still add ammonia to boost nitrogen consumption. Nutrient export is accomplished by fragging and selling coral. When required, I gravel vac sand. So, for me, denitrification in low oxygen areas of dsb is of no value. For anybody that does algae filtration, denitrification is of no value either. Coral & algae consume nitrogen & phosphorous in about the same ratio of 30:1. Some fast growing Caulerpa has a much higher nitrogen ratio and micro algae (phytoplankton) has a lower ratio of 16:1.
So welcome to reef chemistry 201.
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Marcom12
Active Member
The coralline is not unnatural... I just can't find anywhere where the bottom of the ocean is just coralline. But that's just what's appealing to me.
Subsea
5000 Club Member
With so many different & often conflicting viewpoints it does get confusing to flush out fact & fiction. Often both are true for the systems in operation, which brings me to, “what do you want for a reef tank”.
For the first ten years in this hobby I vacillated between experiments. Working overseas on a 28 day on/off schedule pushed me into thinking long term. It all came together after reading John Tullock’s book, The Natural Reef Aquarium. His main theme was inhabitants compatiable in a captive reef tank and
“Less Technology / More Biology.
You should set up a small display tank with the critters in the sandbed. I did a 10G tank with no fish. Only sandbed critters and decorative macro with ghost shrimp. As I drank my first cup of coffee, I feed the tank. It was enjoyable to watch pods grab flakes bigger then they were. When ghost shrimp would eat red or green flakes, you could see the colors of the food as it entered the intestines. Later, I added mollies which reproduced live fry. The pods were bigger than the baby mollies.
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