Help with Water Quality (Rapid Fish Death)

[InTentsReef]

Lots of good thoughts and suggestions here… let me answer the questions:

- TDS from RO is measuring zero. I have the meter on the unit itself and a handheld TDS meter that both showed zero. From the tap it was in the 60s.

- I have actually used two different carbons (both were used stateside and I’m still using the same container. A 20 gal tank doesn’t need much!) When I started the tank it was the ZeoVit carbon. I switched to the ROX one a few weeks ago (between the 1st and 2nd batches of fish) when I was trying to trouble shoot problems.

- I live in a suburban environment. Actually, next door to the local hospital. I can’t imagine they’d be spraying anything too toxic for all the patients to the breath in!

- Even if chlorine / chloramines were the problem, Prime would neutralize them, yes? And I heard once that standing water for awhile will cause those chemicals to dissipate out (hence why pool owners are always adding chlorine?). I don’t know if that’s accurate, but assuming it is, the water standing in my ATO container and in the tank for a few weeks after cycling should have had time to let those chemicals dissipate?

- Both fish were purchased locally (two different LFS shops) and were in the bag for about an hour between shop and starting acclimating. So this isn’t an ammonia buildup in the shipping bag thing.

I am actually very intrigued by the idea of not enough gas exchange. Yes, I have a screen top and lots of flow…. But other than a heavy metal, it’s the only thing that makes sense. To kill a fish in one hour would require one heck of a dose of metals - right?

So let’s discuss the only thing that has changed between this tank and when I had it running stateside:

- Different heater (240V vs 110)
- Marco dry rock (used FL rock before)
- New ocean direct sand (Arag Alice before)
- Different nitrifying bacteria (shouldn’t matter)
- Previous tank I ran an itty bitty skimmer. No skimmer on this tank (but that would affect air exchange)
- New source water

Everything else is the same….

 

[InTentsReef]

For context, here’s what the tank looked like before (in the states)

And now

 

[InTentsReef]

Sorry one more thought - if the issue was gas exchange, would a lack of gas exchange kill coral quickly, or just fish?

 

[Lasse]

- Even if chlorine / chloramines were the problem, Prime would neutralize them, yes? And I heard once that standing water for awhile will cause those chemicals to dissipate out (hence why pool owners are always adding chlorine?). I don’t know if that’s accurate, but assuming it is, the water standing in my ATO container and in the tank for a few weeks after cycling should have had time to let those chemicals dissipate?

This is not the whole truth. Its valid for Cl2 gas and air exchange - but not as valid for chloramines that´s not volatile in the same way

Sorry one more thought - if the issue was gas exchange, would a lack of gas exchange kill coral quickly, or just fish?

IMO - not - this indicate some very aggressive agent

So this isn’t an ammonia buildup in the shipping bag thing

For sure not

Any recent painting in the house/flat ?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[InactiveAcct]

Sorry one more thought - if the issue was gas exchange, would a lack of gas exchange kill coral quickly, or just fish?

I’d be surprised if gas exchange is the issue since you have a screen top.

Probably wasn’t an oxygen issue in the bag from the LFS.

I’m inclined to think it was temp shock or osmotic shock.

I’d probably let things just sit and run carbon for a few weeks and then try again.

If you have 0 TDS I don’t think the source water to the RO unit is something to be concerned about.

 

[Lasse]

If you have 0 TDS I don’t think the source water to the RO unit is something to be concerned about.

0 in TDS does not means that you do not have any toxic non ionic substances in the water. TDS does not discover chlorine or chloramines

Sincerely Lasse

 

[arking_mark]

This is truly an interesting mystery. I'm going with something toxic was introduced to the system. Personally, I'd do 100% water change followed by heavy GAC. Then I'd go with cheap fresh-water Mollies to test survivability...they can easily be adapted to saltwater, don't need to be QT'd, and don't bring in any disease

 

[Dburr1014]

This is truly an interesting mystery. I'm going with something toxic was introduced to the system. Personally, I'd do 100% water change followed by heavy GAC. Then I'd go with cheap fresh-water Mollies to test survivability...they can easily be adapted to saltwater, don't need to be QT'd, and don't bring in any disease

Yup. I asked on page 1, how was this system cleaned before it was setup? Perhaps it wasn't thoroughly cleaned.
Mollies would be a good test after some water changes.

 

[Malcontent]

Nope, a GREAT test kit with AMAZING resolution! (It's hard to mess up "clear", LOL!)

I bet 0.1 ppm chlorine looks clear too.

 

[Malcontent]

- I live in a suburban environment. Actually, next door to the local hospital. I can’t imagine they’d be spraying anything too toxic for all the patients to the breath in!

- Even if chlorine / chloramines were the problem, Prime would neutralize them, yes? And I heard once that standing water for awhile will cause those chemicals to dissipate out (hence why pool owners are always adding chlorine?). I don’t know if that’s accurate, but assuming it is, the water standing in my ATO container and in the tank for a few weeks after cycling should have had time to let those chemicals dissipate?

I am actually very intrigued by the idea of not enough gas exchange. Yes, I have a screen top and lots of flow…. But other than a heavy metal, it’s the only thing that makes sense. To kill a fish in one hour would require one heck of a dose of metals - right?

Hospitals use a lot of toxic stuff. Some still use glutaraldehyde which has forced some nurses into early retirement due to illness.

Prime should neutralize any chloramine that makes it through the RO. I always add a little dechlorinator to my RO water. We actually don't really have the technology to detect chlorine levels low enough to be non-toxic to fish and other aquatic life. That's why there were a series of letters between the EPA and wastewater treatment plants trying to establish discharge limits. What they ended up doing was dosing 150% the amount of sulfur dioxide that would be needed to dechlorinate the water.

Heavy metals are unlikely and mostly a marketing scare tactic.

Dissolved oxygen is also pretty unlikely but it's also very unintuitive so I don't like guessing. Pretty much everything hobbyists believe about oxygenation has been scientifically disproven.

So, yeah, this is one of those aquarium mysteries where there are a bunch of possibilities but none of them are that likely.

 

[Lasse]

Easiest way to take care of chlorine/chloramines residues is to take some smaller amount of ascorbic acid in the RO container. A coffee spoon to around 100 L RO water is enough.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’m afraid of that. Which is why I am trying to come up with alternatives. In theory any other toxins should show up on the city water report I had above…. Do I try adding some metal binding resin?

i really do not know what it is, and I would not assume it is chemical.

 

[InTentsReef]

Yup. I asked on page 1, how was this system cleaned before it was setup? Perhaps it wasn't thoroughly cleaned.
Mollies would be a good test after some water changes.

Sorry, I missed that question. I broke the tank down about 6 months ago and used a combination of citric acid and vinegar (not together) to clean all of the equipment before it was dried and packed. Honestly, I don't recall if I used the acid or the vinegar on the tank -- I ran out of the citric acid and had to clean some things with vinegar bath and I don't recall what was cleaned with what chemical.

After cleaning, drying and packing, it spent about 3 months in shipment before arriving here and being setup.

Any recent painting in the house/flat ?

No. Nothing.

i really do not know what it is, and I would not assume it is chemical.

@Randy Holmes-Farley - Appreciate you weighing in. Your contributions to this hobby are incredible. I've read dozens of your articles (maybe only understood part of them!) and very much appreciate you. Thanks.

This dialogue has been very helpful to me -- at least to try and narrow down the list of possibilities. My RO booster pump arrived today so I'll set that up over the weekend along with some new DI resin and do 100% W/C and run some heavy carbon. Then I'll wait to see what the ICP test offers and maybe try some freshwater mollies.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

No one has mentioned stray voltage, and to be honest, I'm not well versed on the topic,; but the mention of a new heater made me think of it.

Hopefully others will weigh in as to whether this is a possible cause of your problem.

 

[Dburr1014]

No one has mentioned stray voltage, and to be honest, I'm not well versed on the topic,; but the mention of a new heater made me think of it.

Hopefully others will weigh in as to whether this is a possible cause of your problem.

I was just going to ask if that was checked. You beat me to it.

 

[InactiveAcct]

0 in TDS does not means that you do not have any toxic non ionic substances in the water. TDS does not discover chlorine or chloramines

Sincerely Lasse

Agree. And, I have serious doubts that unfiltered municipal chlorine/ chloramine would kill a fish in 90 min, let alone whatever small percentage made it through the RO system

 

[InTentsReef]

Haven’t checked. Will have to research how that is tested and get back to y’all.

 

[DavidinGA]

Sorry, I missed that question. I broke the tank down about 6 months ago and used a combination of citric acid and vinegar (not together) to clean all of the equipment before it was dried and packed. Honestly, I don't recall if I used the acid or the vinegar on the tank -- I ran out of the citric acid and had to clean some things with vinegar bath and I don't recall what was cleaned with what chemical.

After cleaning, drying and packing, it spent about 3 months in shipment before arriving here and being setup.



No. Nothing.



@Randy Holmes-Farley - Appreciate you weighing in. Your contributions to this hobby are incredible. I've read dozens of your articles (maybe only understood part of them!) and very much appreciate you. Thanks.

This dialogue has been very helpful to me -- at least to try and narrow down the list of possibilities. My RO booster pump arrived today so I'll set that up over the weekend along with some new DI resin and do 100% W/C and run some heavy carbon. Then I'll wait to see what the ICP test offers and maybe try some freshwater mollies.

Would the manner in which it was shipped have given any opportunity for it to come in contact with any chemicals or other potential contaminants? I know that's a stretch, but it might be time for stretching...

 

[InTentsReef]

Would the manner in which it was shipped have given any opportunity for it to come in contact with any chemicals or other potential contaminants? I know that's a stretch, but it might be time for stretching...

Seems unlikely. It was wrapped in paper, then put into a box. Then into a wooden crate that was sealed and put onto trucks / a ship. It was in there with everything else from my home, and the tamper proof seals were still intact when it arrived.

 

[InTentsReef]

Ok, I think I have found the source of my problem. Not sure if it can be solved….

When I broke down the tank for shipping, I used a scratch repair kit to fix two scratches on the glass. I had done some research and found the glass repair resins were reef safe once fully cured, but now I suspect that was for external applications on the glass, not internal. Or that the person I talked to was wrong…

I looked up the SDS sheet for the resin I used:

https://granvilleoil.com/sds/SDS-600001-v2.pdf

“Very toxic to aquatic organisms” and causes respiratory issues. Ding ding ding.

Of course what has me a little stumped is that this SDS is for the raw chemicals. The resin is applied, then cured in UV (sun) until hard and scraped clean. I would have assumed the curing process to go from liquid resin to harden it would alter those chemicals, but I’m guessing not so much.

Now the questions:
- can I bind this material to remove it from the tank / neutralize it?
- if not, is everything in that tank now “contaminated” (all the probes and equipment?) or just the tank glass. It’s obviously affecting the water supply, but would those chemicals bind to other equipment?

Thank you to everyone who has contributed ideas to this thread. Having a group dialogue helped me narrow in my search. I woke up in the middle of the night going “ah ha” - totally forgot about the scratch removal but that is the most logical culprit at this point.

welcome any thoughts on how / if this can be solved.