Help with Water Quality (Rapid Fish Death)

Ly78 · Jun 18, 2022

Not sure but since u said you are using the bio-actif salt, it is a form of carbon dosing. Without skimmer i believe theres a possible oxygen depletion/bacterial bloom, just a thought .

Malcontent · Jun 18, 2022

DanTheReefer said:
Agree. And, I have serious doubts that unfiltered municipal chlorine/ chloramine would kill a fish in 90 min, let alone whatever small percentage made it through the RO system

RO isn't that great at removing chloramine. In fact, there are numerous cases where dialysis patients developed anemia which was traced to chloramine breakthrough:

0.27 ppm is more than enough to kill fish within a few hours.

I would dose the tank with the standard dechlorinator dosage for tap water and see if the next fish fare better.

InTentsReef · Jun 18, 2022

I don’t think it’s Chloramines or chlorine. See my last post on page 4 about my suspected cause

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jun 18, 2022

Gotgills said:
Ok, I think I have found the source of my problem. Not sure if it can be solved….

When I broke down the tank for shipping, I used a scratch repair kit to fix two scratches on the glass. I had done some research and found the glass repair resins were reef safe once fully cured, but now I suspect that was for external applications on the glass, not internal. Or that the person I talked to was wrong…

I looked up the SDS sheet for the resin I used:

https://granvilleoil.com/sds/SDS-600001-v2.pdf

“Very toxic to aquatic organisms” and causes respiratory issues. Ding ding ding.

Of course what has me a little stumped is that this SDS is for the raw chemicals. The resin is applied, then cured in UV (sun) until hard and scraped clean. I would have assumed the curing process to go from liquid resin to harden it would alter those chemicals, but I’m guessing not so much.

Now the questions:
- can I bind this material to remove it from the tank / neutralize it?
- if not, is everything in that tank now “contaminated” (all the probes and equipment?) or just the tank glass. It’s obviously affecting the water supply, but would those chemicals bind to other equipment?

Thank you to everyone who has contributed ideas to this thread. Having a group dialogue helped me narrow in my search. I woke up in the middle of the night going “ah ha” - totally forgot about the scratch removal but that is the most logical culprit at this point.

welcome any thoughts on how / if this can be solved.

I’d be surprised if there are enough residual monomers to be the cause, but I’d use GAC to help remove them, if present.

Malcontent · Jun 18, 2022

Gotgills said:
I don’t think it’s Chloramines or chlorine. See my last post on page 4 about my suspected cause

Yeah, it's unlikely but the scratch repair stuff being the culprit is even more unlikely.

InTentsReef · Jun 18, 2022

Did 100% WC today and added GAC and some purigen in a mesh bag to a high flow area. Some of the purigen got a little brown gummy texture. Never seen that before with purigen. Figure both could help bind up whatever is going on. Will give it a few days and then try some mollies…

The scratch remover only makes sense if you look up the chemicals used in it. Clearly not safe for aquatics, but I agree that I would have assumed the curing process would negate those effects.

Lasse · Jun 19, 2022

Gotgills said:
I don’t think it’s Chloramines or chlorine. See my last post on page 4 about my suspected cause

Malcontent said:
Yeah, it's unlikely but the scratch repair stuff being the culprit is even more unlikely.

1+1 = 3?

I think we can never be sure what happened in this case - but it turned out that it was at least a questionable action when the aquarium was set up.

As a father of four children - I must ask you if you have any children below 10 years of age

? It has happens before that children seen their parents doing something "good" and afterwards trying to do the same or coming up with some "good" stuff by themselves. Creativity usually flows as a tide wave in these ages and the famous box does not exist at all

Sincerely Lasse

InTentsReef · Jun 19, 2022

No kids. So no little mischief makers adding their own tonics to the tank

InTentsReef · Jun 21, 2022

I got my ICP test results back for the tank water. Still waiting for the results from the separate testing of the RO water.

Tank is deficient in almost every macro element. Not surprising -- there isn't any livestock so I've not dosed any elements. That didn't kill fish though.

Here are the elements that were wildly off:

- Cobalt 1.11 µg/l (target is 0.2)
- Copper 13.59 µg/l (target is 2)
- Silicone 1020.15 µg/l (target is 100)

Everything else that was off was only off negligible amounts.

I have since done 100% water change and put two freshwater mollies in there. It's been 2 days and so far they are alive and well.

What do we make of this? Thoughts on a way forward?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jun 21, 2022

Can you post the actual results?

InTentsReef · Jun 21, 2022

Element	Analysis Value	Calculated value at 35 PSU of Salinity	Desired Level	Acceptable range/level min - max
Basic Element
Salinity (NaCl)	35.68 PSU	35.00 PSU
Macro Elements

B ( Boron )	0.14 mg/l	0.14 mg/l	4.5 mg/l	4 - 10 mg/l
Br ( Bromine )	4.58 mg/l	4.50 mg/l	62 mg/l	62 - 100 mg/l
Ca( Calcium )	40.74 mg/l	39.96 mg/l	400 mg/l	380.00 - 500.00 mg/l
K( Potassium )	< LOD	< LOD	400 mg/l	380 - 500 mg/l
Mg( Magnesium)	< LOD	< LOD	1350 mg/l	1280 - 1600 mg/l
Na ( Sodium)	14374.56 mg/l	14099.07 mg/l	10700 mg/l	10000 - 11300 mg/l
S(Sulphur)	144.98 mg/l	142.21 mg/l	900 mg/l	810 - 1000 mg/l
Sr( Strontium )	1.81 mg/l	1.78 mg/l	7.8 mg/l	7.2 - 13 mg/l
Trace Element

Ba( Barium)	64.33 µg/l	63.10 µg/l	10 µg/l	10 - 100 µg/l
Be( Beryllium)	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 10 µg/l
Co( Cobalt)	1.11 µg/l	1.09 µg/l	0.2 µg/l	0 - 1 µg/l
Cr( Chromium)	< LOD	< LOD	0.5 µg/l	0 - 1 µg/l
Cu( Copper)	13.59 µg/l	13.33 µg/l	2 µg/l	0 - 10 µg/l
Fe( Iron)	1.33 µg/l	1.30 µg/l	0.4 µg/l	0 - 5 µg/l
I( Iodine)	27.21 µg/l	26.69 µg/l	60 µg/l	55 - 100 µg/l
Li( Lithium)	22.30 µg/l	21.87 µg/l	180 µg/l	180 - 500 µg/l
Mn( Manganese)	< LOD	< LOD	2 µg/l	0.4 - 5 µg/l
Mo( Molybdenum )	3.60 µg/l	3.53 µg/l	12 µg/l	10 - 14 µg/l
Ni( Nickel)	2.83 µg/l	2.78 µg/l	2.5 µg/l	0 - 5 µg/l
Se( Selenium)	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 20 µg/l
Si( Silicon)	1020.15 µg/l	1000.60 µg/l	100 µg/l	0 - 500 µg/l
Sn( Tin)	< LOD	< LOD	2 µg/l	0 - 10 µg/l
V( Vanadium)	< LOD	< LOD	1.8 µg/l	0 - 10 µg/l
Zn( Zinc )	7.37 µg/l	7.23 µg/l	2.5 µg/l	0 - 10 µg/l
Nutrients

P( Phosphorus )	32.31 µg/l	31.69 µg/l	13 µg/l	7 - 27.5 µg/l
PO4 (Phosphate)	0.10 mg/l	0.097 mg/l	0.04 mg/l	0.021 - 0.09 mg/l
Pollutants

Ag( Silver )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 µg/l
AI( Aluminium )	1.13 µg/l	1.10 µg/l	0 µg/l	0 - 50 µg/l
Cd( Cadmium )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 1 µg/l
Hg( Mercury )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 µg/l
Pb( Lead )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 3 µg/l
Sb( Antimony )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 10 µg/l
Ti( Titanium )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 5 µg/l
Tl (Thallium)	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 10 µg/l
Zr( Zirconium )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 5 µg/l
W( Tungsten )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 20 µg/l
Bi ( Bismuth )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 µg/l
Ge ( Germanium )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 µg/l
La ( Lanthanum )	< LOD	< LOD	0 µg/l	0 - 15 µg/l

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jun 21, 2022

Gotgills said:
Element Analysis Value Calculated value at 35 PSU of Salinity Desired Level Acceptable range/level min - max
Basic Element
Salinity (NaCl) 35.68 PSU 35.00 PSU
Macro Elements
B ( Boron ) 0.14 mg/l 0.14 mg/l 4.5 mg/l 4 - 10 mg/l
Br ( Bromine ) 4.58 mg/l 4.50 mg/l 62 mg/l 62 - 100 mg/l
Ca( Calcium ) 40.74 mg/l 39.96 mg/l 400 mg/l 380.00 - 500.00 mg/l
K( Potassium ) < LOD < LOD 400 mg/l 380 - 500 mg/l
Mg( Magnesium) < LOD < LOD 1350 mg/l 1280 - 1600 mg/l
Na ( Sodium) 14374.56 mg/l 14099.07 mg/l 10700 mg/l 10000 - 11300 mg/l
S(Sulphur) 144.98 mg/l 142.21 mg/l 900 mg/l 810 - 1000 mg/l
Sr( Strontium ) 1.81 mg/l 1.78 mg/l 7.8 mg/l 7.2 - 13 mg/l
Trace Element
Ba( Barium) 64.33 µg/l 63.10 µg/l 10 µg/l 10 - 100 µg/l
Be( Beryllium) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 10 µg/l
Co( Cobalt) 1.11 µg/l 1.09 µg/l 0.2 µg/l 0 - 1 µg/l
Cr( Chromium) < LOD < LOD 0.5 µg/l 0 - 1 µg/l
Cu( Copper) 13.59 µg/l 13.33 µg/l 2 µg/l 0 - 10 µg/l
Fe( Iron) 1.33 µg/l 1.30 µg/l 0.4 µg/l 0 - 5 µg/l
I( Iodine) 27.21 µg/l 26.69 µg/l 60 µg/l 55 - 100 µg/l
Li( Lithium) 22.30 µg/l 21.87 µg/l 180 µg/l 180 - 500 µg/l
Mn( Manganese) < LOD < LOD 2 µg/l 0.4 - 5 µg/l
Mo( Molybdenum ) 3.60 µg/l 3.53 µg/l 12 µg/l 10 - 14 µg/l
Ni( Nickel) 2.83 µg/l 2.78 µg/l 2.5 µg/l 0 - 5 µg/l
Se( Selenium) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 20 µg/l
Si( Silicon) 1020.15 µg/l 1000.60 µg/l 100 µg/l 0 - 500 µg/l
Sn( Tin) < LOD < LOD 2 µg/l 0 - 10 µg/l
V( Vanadium) < LOD < LOD 1.8 µg/l 0 - 10 µg/l
Zn( Zinc ) 7.37 µg/l 7.23 µg/l 2.5 µg/l 0 - 10 µg/l
Nutrients
P( Phosphorus ) 32.31 µg/l 31.69 µg/l 13 µg/l 7 - 27.5 µg/l
PO4 (Phosphate) 0.10 mg/l 0.097 mg/l 0.04 mg/l 0.021 - 0.09 mg/l
Pollutants
Ag( Silver ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 µg/l
AI( Aluminium ) 1.13 µg/l 1.10 µg/l 0 µg/l 0 - 50 µg/l
Cd( Cadmium ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 1 µg/l
Hg( Mercury ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 µg/l
Pb( Lead ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 3 µg/l
Sb( Antimony ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 10 µg/l
Ti( Titanium ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 5 µg/l
Tl (Thallium) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 10 µg/l
Zr( Zirconium ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 5 µg/l
W( Tungsten ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 20 µg/l
Bi ( Bismuth ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 µg/l
Ge ( Germanium ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 µg/l
La ( Lanthanum ) < LOD < LOD 0 µg/l 0 - 15 µg/l

That looks like a totally bogus test. There’s no way that is accurate for reef tank water, assuming it was ever made from natural or commercial artificial seawater.

Is this from icp analysis dot com?

InTentsReef · Jun 21, 2022

Hi Randy - it's from https://www.reef-zlements.com -- they were one of the only labs I could find that did testing in the United Kingdom.

Out of curiosity...what makes you say bogus? The levels, or what they tested? It is a brand new tank with the only additives being the salt mix, PNS Substrate Sauce, and the AquaForest NP bacteria additives.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jun 21, 2022

Gotgills said:
Hi Randy - it's from https://www.reef-zlements.com -- they were one of the only labs I could find that did testing in the United Kingdom.

Out of curiosity...what makes you say bogus? The levels, or what they tested? It is a brand new tank with the only additives being the salt mix, PNS Substrate Sauce, and the AquaForest NP bacteria additives.

The levels.
What salt mix?

There’s no way (without truly extraordinary efforts) to get sulfate and calcium and potassium and magnesium that low in seawater.

InTentsReef · Jun 21, 2022

Is there a prize for stumping you?

It is Tropic Marine Bio-Actif salt mix

Rick's Reviews · Jun 21, 2022

Gotgills said:
Ok, I think I have found the source of my problem. Not sure if it can be solved….

When I broke down the tank for shipping, I used a scratch repair kit to fix two scratches on the glass. I had done some research and found the glass repair resins were reef safe once fully cured, but now I suspect that was for external applications on the glass, not internal. Or that the person I talked to was wrong…

I looked up the SDS sheet for the resin I used:

https://granvilleoil.com/sds/SDS-600001-v2.pdf

“Very toxic to aquatic organisms” and causes respiratory issues. Ding ding ding.

Of course what has me a little stumped is that this SDS is for the raw chemicals. The resin is applied, then cured in UV (sun) until hard and scraped clean. I would have assumed the curing process to go from liquid resin to harden it would alter those chemicals, but I’m guessing not so much.

Now the questions:
- can I bind this material to remove it from the tank / neutralize it?
- if not, is everything in that tank now “contaminated” (all the probes and equipment?) or just the tank glass. It’s obviously affecting the water supply, but would those chemicals bind to other equipment?

Thank you to everyone who has contributed ideas to this thread. Having a group dialogue helped me narrow in my search. I woke up in the middle of the night going “ah ha” - totally forgot about the scratch removal but that is the most logical culprit at this point.

welcome any thoughts on how / if this can be solved.

my mind is blown from OP to now .. Im going to continue to follow lol

Rick's Reviews · Jun 21, 2022

Gotgills said:
Hi Randy - it's from https://www.reef-zlements.com -- they were one of the only labs I could find that did testing in the United Kingdom.

Out of curiosity...what makes you say bogus? The levels, or what they tested? It is a brand new tank with the only additives being the salt mix, PNS Substrate Sauce, and the AquaForest NP bacteria additives.

And repair kit you referred to earlier to remove scratches

Lasse · Jun 21, 2022

I´m with @Randy Holmes-Farley in this case - the results are crazy and can´t be true or you have got a totally crazy batch of Tropic Marine salt (which sounds crazy in itself - they had problem with a turkish production line in 2021 but it was about cloudiness in the water not crazy concentrations) . Ca, K and MG is more the 10 times lower compared with what they should be. Either it is a totally crazy batch of salt or a totally out of order ICP test.

I call in @Hans-Werner here - he is probably very interested of taking part of your experiences and test results

Sincerely Lasse

kingoftheHiLLpeople · Jun 21, 2022

DavidinGA said:
Would the manner in which it was shipped have given any opportunity for it to come in contact with any chemicals or other potential contaminants? I know that's a stretch, but it might be time for stretching...

Great question. How was it prepared for shipping also?

InTentsReef · Jun 21, 2022

kingoftheHiLLpeople said:
Great question. How was it prepared for shipping also?

Prepared in what way? Gave away all of the coral and fish. Drained tank. Cleaned tank and equipment with critic acid / vinegar. Rinsed. Allowed to dry and put in boxes…