Help with Water Quality (Rapid Fish Death)

[kingoftheHiLLpeople]

Prepared in what way? Gave away all of the coral and fish. Drained tank. Cleaned tank and equipment with critic acid / vinegar. Rinsed. Allowed to dry and put in boxes…

Was wondering just that.

 

[InTentsReef]

For entertainment sake… or more confusion….

I have done a 100% WC on the tank since there ICP was sent in, so admittedly I am not testing the same water now that they tested. But it is the same salt mix. My Hannah checker just gave me this result for calcium.

I know Alkalinity can precipitate out- does magnesium or calcium? The water that was in the ICP test was theoretically 8-10 weeks “old” and no additives in it bc no livestock. Grasping at straws.

Do we think the fact that I’ve kept these mollies alive suggests whatever it was is a fluke thing and we should be fine now (post 100% WC)? Is there anything that would kill marine fish that fast but not affect a tropical fish?

 

[Lasse]

Prepared in what way? Gave away all of the coral and fish. Drained tank. Cleaned tank and equipment with critic acid / vinegar. Rinsed. Allowed to dry and put in boxes…

Slowly now - at least I do not play a blame game here but I´m eager to figure out whats happens in your tank

For entertainment sake… or more confusion….

I have done a 100% WC on the tank since there ICP was sent in, so admittedly I am not testing the same water now that they tested. But it is the same salt mix. My Hannah checker just gave me this result for calcium.

I know Alkalinity can precipitate out- does magnesium or calcium? The water that was in the ICP test was theoretically 8-10 weeks “old” and no additives in it bc no livestock. Grasping at straws.

Do we think the fact that I’ve kept these mollies alive suggests whatever it was is a fluke thing and we should be fine now (post 100% WC)? Is there anything that would kill marine fish that fast but not affect a tropical fish?

This strongly indicate that you ICP test was wrong. No way that around 90% Ca should precipitate in 10 weeks. If your alkalinity was 10 when it all start - only 72 mg Ca should have precipitate of KH was going down to 0

1 dKH is 17.86 Ca CO3 (Ca = 40. C= 12 and =3 is 3*16 = 100) Ca is 40 % of CaCO3

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Is there a prize for stumping you?

It is Tropic Marine Bio-Actif salt mix

No, it happens a lot. lol

Tropic Marin would not produce a salt mix that could end up like that. My only concern was if you used a diy mix like intended for grocery store lobster tanks or some such thing.

I’d choose a different vendor for icp.

 

[InTentsReef]

Tropic Marin would not produce a salt mix that could end up like that. My only concern was if you used a diy mix like intended for grocery store lobster tanks or some such thing.

I just woke up at 4:30am having realized why the ICP could look so weird. Apologies I didn’t think of this sooner…. I had a lot going on to move halfway around the world when I broke down the tank and some of the finer details are coming back to me.

Once upon a time I used the ESV B-Ionic salt mix. I had some leftover sodium that I never used and when I was consolidating things for my move, I dumped the rest of that B-Ionic salt on top of the bucket of Tropic Marin. Almost certainly that salt would be what got scooped off the top first when I mixed my first batches of SW for the tank.

At this point, with the extra WCs, I have almost finished my salt bucket off. Which means I’m probably using more of the Tropic Marin salt than the B-Ionic, hence why I can measure a calcium reading now.

Even still - is low / no calcium and magnesium going to result in rapid fish death?

 

[Lasse]

Everything get its explanation sooner or later

The high Sodium - that´s by itself indicate a high chloride level - means that you water more or less was a pure NaCl mix and IMO - that by itself can explain most of your problems

This indicate that your NaCl concentrations in your former water correspond to the NaCl concentration of a real reef water total salt concentration of around 42 psu

What did your RO water ICP say?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

How are you testing your salinity? What are you using and what you basing it off of? What's your base line variable. Your calibration? Your calibration fluid?
Ect.
Thanks
D

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I just woke up at 4:30am having realized why the ICP could look so weird. Apologies I didn’t think of this sooner…. I had a lot going on to move halfway around the world when I broke down the tank and some of the finer details are coming back to me.

Once upon a time I used the ESV B-Ionic salt mix. I had some leftover sodium that I never used and when I was consolidating things for my move, I dumped the rest of that B-Ionic salt on top of the bucket of Tropic Marin. Almost certainly that salt would be what got scooped off the top first when I mixed my first batches of SW for the tank.

At this point, with the extra WCs, I have almost finished my salt bucket off. Which means I’m probably using more of the Tropic Marin salt than the B-Ionic, hence why I can measure a calcium reading now.

Even still - is low / no calcium and magnesium going to result in rapid fish death?

OK, that may very well explain the icp results and maybe even fish deaths.

 

[Captmcfly]

Just out of curiosity as I didn’t have time to read all 6 pages, have we ruled out electricity?? Voltage in the water? You went from us to uk so from 120vac to 240vac? Higher voltage will bleed through insulation much easier then you would think. Just spit balling…

 

[Hans-Werner]

Thanks for calling, Lasse!

the results are crazy and can´t be true or you have got a totally crazy batch of Tropic Marine salt (which sounds crazy in itself

All batches are tested and it is impossible for such a batch to get out of our doors, even if it would happen, which is already very, very close to impossible.

To get back to the beginning: We had some similar cases in Germany some years ago but I don't recall any appearing in the forums in recent years. Tanks even were completely emptied and still it was impossible to keep fish for more than some hours, maybe sometimes dying over a day or two. I think crustaceans were also affected, corals sometimes seemed affected sometimes less or not. The latter finding makes a "normal" inorganic poisoning nearly impossible. Corals are much more sensitive to nearly any metal or other toxic inorganic ion than fish or crustaceans.

The only idea I have not discarded yet is bacteria or a bacterial or algal toxin in the water. Some biological toxins are incredibly effective and emptying a tank might not help if the organism survives in some corner or seam. It will grow to unfold the same effects in a few days. Everyone that has ever tried to fight a planktonic algal bloom with water changes can confirm this, and many bacteria are even more rapid growers than algae.

 

[Hans-Werner]

My preferred solution would be a microscopic and/or microbiome analysis and subsequently most likely a probiotic approach: Take substrate and detritus from a well running tank, maybe some earth or compost infusion, anything that might introduce a rich and diverse microbiology, maybe after cleaning the tank with freshwater and then maybe with diluted muriatric acid, depending from the efforts you want to start with.

... I forgot and want to supplement: If I recall it right, the affected tanks were started with dead decoration materials also, resulting in instable biological conditions where any fast growing organism that gets the chance might grow.

 

[InTentsReef]

What did your RO water ICP say?

Still waiting on the results. Will share them when I get them.

Just out of curiosity as I didn’t have time to read all 6 pages, have we ruled out electricity?? Voltage in the water? You went from us to uk so from 120vac to 240vac? Higher voltage will bleed through insulation much easier then you would think. Just spit balling…

I did stick a voltmeter in the tank and didn’t measure any current. Sorry, I think I forgot to post that earlier when it was asked.

 

[InTentsReef]

OK, that may very well explain the icp results and maybe even fish deaths.

You think that’s my answer?

I’m annoyed at myself for not thinking it through when I dumped the extra salt into the bucket (I should’ve known better) and appreciate everyone chiming in with ideas to help narrow down the possible sources of the problem. This dialogue has been a great way to systematically work through the process. I just wish I’d remembered some of this sooner…. But it would be an understatement to say I was preoccupied with more than my tank during the move.

I’ll give it a little longer with the Mollies and do one more WC. I have a fresh bucket of Tropic Marin that I haven’t opened and will discard the rest of this current bucket since I don’t really know what is in it after I mixed salts.

 

[kingoftheHiLLpeople]

As Lasse said no blame. That includes you blaming you. You said you moved to a new country? US to UK? There is a lot involved in moving down the road let alone to a new country. Hope that is what it is - can’t wait to see it come together!

 

[InTentsReef]

Appreciate it. Still frustrating! And yes, moved from the US to the UK… one or two small steps involved!

 

[Lasse]

I’m annoyed at myself for not thinking it through when I dumped the extra salt into the bucket (I should’ve known better) and appreciate everyone chiming in with ideas to help narrow down the possible sources of the problem. This dialogue has been a great way to systematically work through the process. I just wish I’d remembered some of this sooner….

During my 50 years of working - similar things have happened me every now and then. I had a boss once that (when it happens) always said - with a tired look at me - for me as a boss, it is better to realize that you are a total idiot than to face an insoluble problem This has always helped me realize that an explanation - no matter how stupid it is - is better than not understanding why the problem occurred.

However - if the problem (with deaths) continue - I think that Hans Werner`s advises can be of interest for you. His surname is Balling and he is the head scientist at Tropic Marine. You have two of the worlds most prominent scientist according reef chemistry in this thread. And believe me - they have done similar mistakes too during their cariere - otherwise they would not be humans.

All batches are tested and it is impossible for such a batch to get out of our doors, even if it would happen, which is already very, very close to impossible.

To get back to the beginning: We had some similar cases in Germany some years ago but I don't recall any appearing in the forums in recent years. Tanks even were completely emptied and still it was impossible to keep fish for more than some hours, maybe sometimes dying over a day or two. I think crustaceans were also affected, corals sometimes seemed affected sometimes less or not. The latter finding makes a "normal" inorganic poisoning nearly impossible. Corals are much more sensitive to nearly any metal or other toxic inorganic ion than fish or crustaceans.

The only idea I have not discarded yet is bacteria or a bacterial or algal toxin in the water. Some biological toxins are incredibly effective and emptying a tank might not help if the organism survives in some corner or seam. It will grow to unfold the same effects in a few days. Everyone that has ever tried to fight a planktonic algal bloom with water changes can confirm this, and many bacteria are even more rapid growers than algae.

My preferred solution would be a microscopic and/or microbiome analysis and subsequently most likely a probiotic approach: Take substrate and detritus from a well running tank, maybe some earth or compost infusion, anything that might introduce a rich and diverse microbiology, maybe after cleaning the tank with freshwater and then maybe with diluted muriatric acid, depending from the efforts you want to start with.

... I forgot and want to supplement: If I recall it right, the affected tanks were started with dead decoration materials also, resulting in instable biological conditions where any fast growing organism that gets the chance might grow.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You think that’s my answer?

I’m annoyed at myself for not thinking it through when I dumped the extra salt into the bucket (I should’ve known better) and appreciate everyone chiming in with ideas to help narrow down the possible sources of the problem. This dialogue has been a great way to systematically work through the process. I just wish I’d remembered some of this sooner…. But it would be an understatement to say I was preoccupied with more than my tank during the move.

I’ll give it a little longer with the Mollies and do one more WC. I have a fresh bucket of Tropic Marin that I haven’t opened and will discard the rest of this current bucket since I don’t really know what is in it after I mixed salts.

I think it is a likely possibility. The ion imbalance is severe.

 

[ReefLife_Guy]

I think it is a likely possibility. The ion imbalance is severe.

Do you think the issue was ionic imbalance more in the sense of relative values of ions or that the total water osmolarity was off?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Do you think the issue was ionic imbalance more in the sense of relative values of ions or that the total water osmolarity was off?

I think no potassium or calcium or magnesium might be a huge stressor. Not sure on chloride vs sulfate.

 

[Doglips56]

I agree with this, salinity was my first thought and some toxin was my second thought. Both of these mainly because of the quickness of death. Rapid salinity changes can cause rapid death, because of huge sudden fluid shifts within the organism to equilibrate with the environment. If the difference in salinity is large enough, the acclimation period will need to be days and not minutes to hours. In humans we try to avoid changing blood sodium levels by more than 0.5mEq/L per hour because rapid changes in sodium can cause fluid to shift between compartments of the body and cause things like swelling in the brain. What method do you use to measure salinity? Even if the actual number is inaccurate, you should at least be able to compare the difference between the water they are in from the lfs and what your water currently is. I believe there is a stickie thread about hypo salinity and there is mention of how quick you can change the salinity. IF they are the same then you can rule that out, just be sure they are measured with the same exact device.

When it comes to toxins, you can try adding activated charcoal to the tank to absorb anything that might not be picked up on by ICP tests. The only problem is that it will be harder to know the source of the toxin or what the toxin is if you are just removing it with the charcoal. If it is something leaching into the water from something in the tank, it is probably better to remove/replace whatever it is than it is to just absorb the toxin with the charcoal. If you still have the dead fish you might be able to look for somewhere you can send them to be tested for heavy metals or toxicology screening.

Hope this helps, good luck!

I regularly buy fish from an LFS that keeps their salinity far below mine. I’ve always drip acclimated over about an hour or so (they actually recommen faster) and haven’t had any fish/invert death in over 2 years. How do you even do a multi day acclimation? I have a QT tank but keep salinity close to what my DT is. Just curious. Thanks