Inner Wokings- High Dollar LED Lights VS Low Cost ?

I bought one of those 165watt Chinese lights for about $100. The color and the spotlighting drove me nuts. I returned it for a $350 Hydra 26HD. It's way nicer to customize colors on the iPad and to set times. Part of having a fish tank is to look at. If you have to pay more for it to look nicer then isn't that the goal? :)

P.s. I don't doubt for a second there is markup on any light. It's a business they want money.
 
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So much to reply to but.....

How do we and the manufactures know,....what colors to use, what hue's, how many of each and at what strength ?

If there's many people running the LED's at only 25% (+/-) why do they make the lights go 100% ?
thats a good thing. Spread. Pods stink for spread so obviously the higher you can go the better the spread. If you've ever played with a par meter despite the visual, it's neat to see how fast it drops in water too.

Another interesting thing with light and diodes, yesterday I was talking to a company I use that's grows Zoe's. I was talking about coloration in some of them like the one here. He told me they use radions, love them, but the only way to get these things to grow into this is with t5. Until yesterday I had no idea.
 
I haven't posted here yet and have read through these comments. I haven't had a reef since 2001 (yep, that long ago) and working on a new tank now. I hope to reproduce what my 450 gallon did in 2001...as it was featured in the premier publication at the time, Aquarium Frontiers. So, I thought I would chime in here ... :).

Back in 2001, you didn't have all the copy catters from China that we have today. You had the Europeans setting many of the standards and the US trying to recreate those standards at US prices. Today, it is easy to copy products and many people are searching based on price, not necessarily based on results, support, etc.

Back then, the premise on having a successful reef was don't cut corners or you are going to pay more in the long run. I still think that holds true today. What creates complication is that there are LOTS more choices and opinions giving the opportunity to "cut corners." If you are going to try to find options that are less expensive (either by finding less expensive finished products or DIY), you really need to "know" what you are doing. The basic biology of a successful reef hasn't really changed. We know more on what causes problems and have remedies to solve or stay ahead of them (like AEFW...we had them...I had them...we just didn't know what they were or how to treat them yet).

Today, creating your own or buying from vendors that have less expensive options are so prevalent that it is hard to really know what will actually work. As many have already mentioned, people like to defend their personal choice because they already spent the money and don't want to admit they made a poor choice. The other thing that is important is defining "good" or "works great." You always see people saying "I bought an XYZ and I love it..it works great..." With no disrespect to anyone here, what is "good" for one is not necessarily good for everyone. It all depends on one's baseline of "good" to compare your personal results to.

We have all read it here..."my results are awesome..." and then when you see the aquarium with the "awesome" results, the spectrum of awesome is very broad. Personally, my baseline is the top 10% of the tanks we see on the sites here. Whether you love SPS, LPS, softies, or a mix, if the animals are showing long term growth/health with great color and extension, then that is "awesome" in my book. If we look at the majority of these "awesome" reefs, they are mostly using name brand equipment with long term (more than a couple of years) proven track records. Unfortunately, that is also usually the more expensive products.

As so many who have been in this hobby as long as I have, you really need to do your research to understand "why" results are "awesome" and duplicate it...whether it is with name brand equipment, DIY or the Chinese knockoffs. In general, the Chinese stuff is the cheapest copy of something that is really good, but with little regard to long term reliability or support. Companies who design solid products and then have it made in Asia to save on manufacturing can be quite good, but you really need real data from people who are actually using the products, with viewable "good" results, rather than marketing and anecdotal recommendations.

For me, getting back in the hobby has been a great learning experience. LEDs is one of the biggest game changers. For SPS tanks, LEDs have moderate success. Most of the SPS tanks with LEDs report just average results and the tanks correlate to that finding. The question is why? T5s still rein on the top of most supreme SPS tanks in Europe because it seems they work with the best results across the majority of tanks. Again, the question is why?

I read a great article from the aquaculture folks in Toronto, CA. It is one that is referenced on this site and a link from EcoTech. I called them and learned a great lesson...LEDs are great, but the light spectrum that the LEDs need to produce is critical to get the SPS results we all want/need. Most people with LEDs mess around with the light spectrums because, well, they can :). LOL. But the animals need a certain light spectrum for them to grow and thrive. The problem is that light spectrum doesn't necessarily look good to the human eye...its blue. Guess what, that was the case with MH way back when...which is why the 20K Radium was so popular. The animals loved it, but we thought it was ugly and dull. We all compensated with 10Ks to give the white we all "liked to look at" as well as the 20Ks so the animals thrived. Then came along the 14K...and wala...we had nirvana! Same is true for LEDs. As people have learned with experimentation, the more expensive LED fixture brands give us the power to control the spectrum better so the animals will thrive. But we need to be careful to understand what the animals need to thrive.

All this said, I personally have chosen the new GHL LED fixtures for my new SPS dominant tank. I hope they work LOL. I have seen the fixtures personally. I haven't seen any long running tanks with animals in them yet because they don't exist...just a frag tank. However, they do provide the light spectrum that SPS corals need to thrive. They have broad coverage and the ability to adjust the spectrum for the animals to thrive while also looking good to the naked eye. They have all the goodies for control with wifi, etc. And they come from Germany, the country who continues to set the standard for reef aquarium products worldwide. They also come with the support we expect with such a high price for a product. By the way, I don't work for this company and I am paying the same price as anyone else would.

The point is, if you want the best results, you need to really consider choosing some of the best leading products in the industry. It comes with a price, but that is the reef hobby...it is expensive no matter how you cut it :). You can pay now...or pay later...but if you want that top 10% tank, you need to duplicate what those top 10% people are doing.

Happy reefing :).
 
No! Just no! There was a thread on here a few months ago about a top of the line T5 fixture. Once the cover was off, to almost everyone's surprise what was supposed to be German engineering was in fact Chinese craftsmanship. Paying more no longer equals better products.

And yes I know I'm exaggerating a bit. There are awesome sps tanks utilizing LEDS.......some without skimmers.
 
No! Just no! There was a thread on here a few months ago about a top of the line T5 fixture. Once the cover was off, to almost everyone's surprise what was supposed to be German engineering was in fact Chinese craftsmanship. Paying more no longer equals better products.

And yes I know I'm exaggerating a bit. There are awesome sps tanks utilizing LEDS.......some without skimmers.
I agree. I think the higher end is mostly marketing of a good product. If I am going to spend 600% more, it had better be 600% better... for me. Sometimes yes, that means customer service. Sometimes that means talking to the person who actually did the work. I'm not willing to pay 600% more for 20% better. I can mod the cheaper versions and put them in a nice canopy making them almost the same or better... for me... than the more expensive item. It's a personal decision each and every time.

FYI, I know of a reef that is in the top 10% running odyssey fixtures.
 
No! Just no! There was a thread on here a few months ago about a top of the line T5 fixture. Once the cover was off, to almost everyone's surprise what was supposed to be German engineering was in fact Chinese craftsmanship. Paying more no longer equals better products.

And yes I know I'm exaggerating a bit. There are awesome sps tanks utilizing LEDS.......some without skimmers.

90% of the output of a T5 fixture comes from the reflectors. The ballast unless you are comparing rapid vs programmed start doesn't really have much of a role in performance. Comparing the internals of a T5 fixture is pretty much meaningless. HEP programmed start ballasts are all made in China so that makes sense. Only Philips Centiums are made in EU and North America. A higher end T5 fixture like an ATI or whatever else uses silver coated reflectors. That makes a huge difference. Also the design whether they are parabolic, quasi parabolic, or specular is what determines the output. With a cheap T5 fixture you get cheap rapid start ballasts which kill bulbs twice as fast and have less output. With an ATI 80% of the cost is in the reflectors as Alanod miro-silver sheets are not cheap.
 
I haven't posted here yet and have read through these comments. I haven't had a reef since 2001 (yep, that long ago) and working on a new tank now. I hope to reproduce what my 450 gallon did in 2001...as it was featured in the premier publication at the time, Aquarium Frontiers. So, I thought I would chime in here ... :).

Back in 2001, you didn't have all the copy catters from China that we have today. You had the Europeans setting many of the standards and the US trying to recreate those standards at US prices. Today, it is easy to copy products and many people are searching based on price, not necessarily based on results, support, etc.

Back then, the premise on having a successful reef was don't cut corners or you are going to pay more in the long run. I still think that holds true today. What creates complication is that there are LOTS more choices and opinions giving the opportunity to "cut corners." If you are going to try to find options that are less expensive (either by finding less expensive finished products or DIY), you really need to "know" what you are doing. The basic biology of a successful reef hasn't really changed. We know more on what causes problems and have remedies to solve or stay ahead of them (like AEFW...we had them...I had them...we just didn't know what they were or how to treat them yet).

Today, creating your own or buying from vendors that have less expensive options are so prevalent that it is hard to really know what will actually work. As many have already mentioned, people like to defend their personal choice because they already spent the money and don't want to admit they made a poor choice. The other thing that is important is defining "good" or "works great." You always see people saying "I bought an XYZ and I love it..it works great..." With no disrespect to anyone here, what is "good" for one is not necessarily good for everyone. It all depends on one's baseline of "good" to compare your personal results to.

We have all read it here..."my results are awesome..." and then when you see the aquarium with the "awesome" results, the spectrum of awesome is very broad. Personally, my baseline is the top 10% of the tanks we see on the sites here. Whether you love SPS, LPS, softies, or a mix, if the animals are showing long term growth/health with great color and extension, then that is "awesome" in my book. If we look at the majority of these "awesome" reefs, they are mostly using name brand equipment with long term (more than a couple of years) proven track records. Unfortunately, that is also usually the more expensive products.

As so many who have been in this hobby as long as I have, you really need to do your research to understand "why" results are "awesome" and duplicate it...whether it is with name brand equipment, DIY or the Chinese knockoffs. In general, the Chinese stuff is the cheapest copy of something that is really good, but with little regard to long term reliability or support. Companies who design solid products and then have it made in Asia to save on manufacturing can be quite good, but you really need real data from people who are actually using the products, with viewable "good" results, rather than marketing and anecdotal recommendations.

For me, getting back in the hobby has been a great learning experience. LEDs is one of the biggest game changers. For SPS tanks, LEDs have moderate success. Most of the SPS tanks with LEDs report just average results and the tanks correlate to that finding. The question is why? T5s still rein on the top of most supreme SPS tanks in Europe because it seems they work with the best results across the majority of tanks. Again, the question is why?

I read a great article from the aquaculture folks in Toronto, CA. It is one that is referenced on this site and a link from EcoTech. I called them and learned a great lesson...LEDs are great, but the light spectrum that the LEDs need to produce is critical to get the SPS results we all want/need. Most people with LEDs mess around with the light spectrums because, well, they can :). LOL. But the animals need a certain light spectrum for them to grow and thrive. The problem is that light spectrum doesn't necessarily look good to the human eye...its blue. Guess what, that was the case with MH way back when...which is why the 20K Radium was so popular. The animals loved it, but we thought it was ugly and dull. We all compensated with 10Ks to give the white we all "liked to look at" as well as the 20Ks so the animals thrived. Then came along the 14K...and wala...we had nirvana! Same is true for LEDs. As people have learned with experimentation, the more expensive LED fixture brands give us the power to control the spectrum better so the animals will thrive. But we need to be careful to understand what the animals need to thrive.

All this said, I personally have chosen the new GHL LED fixtures for my new SPS dominant tank. I hope they work LOL. I have seen the fixtures personally. I haven't seen any long running tanks with animals in them yet because they don't exist...just a frag tank. However, they do provide the light spectrum that SPS corals need to thrive. They have broad coverage and the ability to adjust the spectrum for the animals to thrive while also looking good to the naked eye. They have all the goodies for control with wifi, etc. And they come from Germany, the country who continues to set the standard for reef aquarium products worldwide. They also come with the support we expect with such a high price for a product. By the way, I don't work for this company and I am paying the same price as anyone else would.

The point is, if you want the best results, you need to really consider choosing some of the best leading products in the industry. It comes with a price, but that is the reef hobby...it is expensive no matter how you cut it :). You can pay now...or pay later...but if you want that top 10% tank, you need to duplicate what those top 10% people are doing.

Happy reefing :).

In all due respect, you have been out of the hobby a long time! Myself and thousands of other hobbyists would totally disagree with you on virtually every aspect of what you said. There was a point long ago I would have agreed with you whole heartedly, but not anymore. The days of throwing money at a name brand have come and gone, and the competition has gotten very good at refining its quality, reliability and at keeping its cost down.

I'm not one to throw money around just for the fun of it (burning money) or to boast that I have "xyz" brand of anything in life to impress anyone or a group of people. Never been that type of guy. But I'm a results person and "bang for the buck kind of guy". Show me that reliability and results, consistently long term for years at a fair price, then you have my attention.

Notice that I have said not one word about "lights"?

I've done my research, I've watched from afar, I've listened objectively to what others have to say from their own personal experience and I have seen first hand to back up all of the above.......... with my own personal experience.

With an open mind, no one can argue with that.


Happy reefing everyone!
 
In all due respect, you have been out of the hobby a long time! Myself and thousands of other hobbyists would totally disagree with you on virtually every aspect of what you said. There was a point long ago I would have agreed with you whole heartedly, but not anymore. The days of throwing money at a name brand have come and gone, and the competition has gotten very good at refining its quality, reliability and at keeping its cost down.

I'm not one to throw money around just for the fun of it (burning money) or to boast that I have "xyz" brand of anything in life to impress anyone or a group of people. Never been that type of guy. But I'm a results person and "bang for the buck kind of guy". Show me that reliability and results, consistently long term for years at a fair price, then you have my attention.

Notice that I have said not one word about "lights"?

I've done my research, I've watched from afar, I've listened objectively to what others have to say from their own personal experience and I have seen first hand to back up all of the above.......... with my own personal experience.

With an open mind, no one can argue with that.


Happy reefing everyone!


We agree more than you think. I guess some didn't read what I said. I never said spend money because of a name...I said spend money based on results. I wasn't black and white either...there were lots of gray in my statements. Happy reefing sir...and I did find your tank with your latest LED switch over from T5s...
 
please help.....
had a power surge at my place the other day and apart from my puter rebooting n a few appliances losing there memory.... half of my 300 watt mars aqua 3 foot died.... does anyone know how to fix? what the issue might be? I know a fuse or cut off switch just inside is too much to hope for, but surely for exactly half to go, then the power going in is split in 2,and one side has burned out something simple?
thank you in advance for any advice
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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