Just a Rant about environment agency lovers

[MoshJosh]

Seems like the OP is comparing apples to oranges? You can care about the environment, want national and global changes to help the environment, but still like wild collected specimens. . .

I will say that self reflection is important, and if at any point we (reefers) feel that the way we conduct ourselves in the hobby is in contrast to our personal values and beliefs we should absolutely consider making changes. . .

 

[Nano_Man]

So you think that someone saying they do not want to support wild coral collection should be banned?

It will never cease to amaze me how many so called "reef lovers" on this website seemingly hate any kind of environmental consideration.

No what I am saying is keep pulling things out of the sea at a grate rate and they will ban collecting corals from the wild can you understand that dear member

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Totally understand the OP on this one. I work for the government, well that phrase isn't exactly true as they are really just my employer. The difficulty with managing people is that there are so many opinions on what we all should do next and the wisest ideas are too smart for the average govt employee to grasp. So what happens, all too oftens is that the biggest loudmouth in the room usually gets their way because the vote is taken quickly so the meeting can end before lunch and everyone wants to eat, now.

I could write a book about it but I can't figure out a title that would sell, as not many want to read; "Hell on Earth Today."

I know why this thread was started and I don't hold it against him but he disliked my post to say the least so much so that he made this one to talk basically about how wrong u was. It's not particularly a point he wanted to make I don't think.

 

[Northern Flicker]

No what I am saying is keep pulling things out of the sea at a grate rate and they will ban collecting corals from the wild can you understand that dear member

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

No what I am saying is keep pulling things out of the sea at a grate rate and they will ban collecting corals from the wild can you understand that dear member

Can you define great rate? What is it measured by?

 

[MoshJosh]

Also I think we should have some perspective, how does damage caused by the reefing hobby compare to other types of damage to the reef/oceans? My guess is that it is miniscule, but without the actual numbers it is hard to say and probably irrelevant to argue. . .

Also. . . if wild corals eventually go extinct due to global factors, the previously collected wild specimens will be all that's left. . . though that's another discussion all together.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

As a naturalist, it’s easy for me to connect with value of all life forms.

The materialism of elevating coral designer names and the expense of Reefing has concerned me for years.

Instead of focus on education , it seems that the Reefing hobby has focused on how much technology & money it takes to be a reefer. In The Natural Aquarium, John Tullock summed up my attitude on marine aquarium with “Less technology/More biology”

Debunking the myth that reef aquariums need to be wildly expensive and technologically complex, John Tullock offers a new, radically simple approach to producing beautiful, captive microcosms.
Using live rock and live sand as part of a natural filtration system, the home aquarist can now create vibrant reef tanks that are biologically stable and simple to maintain.

With Tullocks suggestions, the reefkeeper can now mimic natural habitats such as a Florida Keys Lagoon, a Caribbean Turtle Grass Flat, an Indo-Pacific Deep Cave, or a Red Sea Patch Reef. With more than 200 color photographs and illustrations, Natural Reef Aquariums provides inspiration for both beginning and expert marine reef hobbyists.

What it boils down to though is that this is a hobby. We participate because we enjoy what we're doing. There's no right or wrong way to design a tank. Every hobby will emphasize money. People who seek education don't need a hobby to teach them. Natural tanks or very unnatural tanks can both ne beautiful.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Also I think we should have some perspective, how does damage caused by the reefing hobby compare to other types of damage to the reef/oceans? My guess is that it is miniscule, but without the actual numbers it is hard to say and probably irrelevant to argue. . .

Also. . . if wild corals eventually go extinct due to global factors, the previously collected wild specimens will be all that's left. . . though that's another discussion all together.

It's all a response to my thread. Do you want to read his comments and see why this thread was started?

 

[Nano_Man]

Can you define great rate? What is it measured by?

Over time you will remove too many wild corals and like everything they will stop it altogether imo

Also I think we should have some perspective, how does damage caused by the reefing hobby compare to other types of damage to the reef/oceans? My guess is that it is miniscule, but without the actual numbers it is hard to say and probably irrelevant to argue. . .

Also. . . if wild corals eventually go extinct due to global factors, the previously collected wild specimens will be all that's left. . . though that's another discussion all together.

Do you really think we aren’t making some sort of impact on reefs due too are hobby if everyone wanted wild corals

 

[Northern Flicker]

Also I think we should have some perspective, how does damage caused by the reefing hobby compare to other types of damage to the reef/oceans? My guess is that it is miniscule, but without the actual numbers it is hard to say and probably irrelevant to argue. . .

I feel like this is a defeatist attitude.

The reality is that this is a luxury hobby. Supporting mariculture and captive bred is tiny, but it's something. No, it won't stop people from warming the oceans, and it won't stop China from dredging every inch of the ocean for food, but it's still better than doing nothing.

We're supposed to want to protect the animals we love, not dodge regulation so we can get a rare piece.

I don't know, that's just how I feel. No point in trying to force it onto others. We're a flawed species, I try to see the good where I can. Good usually requires effort and being willing to do something you won't get credit for.

 

[Reefering1]

Also I think we should have some perspective, how does damage caused by the reefing hobby compare to other types of damage to the reef/oceans? My guess is that it is miniscule, but without the actual numbers it is hard to say and probably irrelevant to argue. . .

Also. . . if wild corals eventually go extinct due to global factors, the previously collected wild specimens will be all that's left. . . though that's another discussion all together.

Beat me to it. I was about to propose the same question for everyone to argue about, I mean discuss... if the reefs are dying and ocean is becoming un inhabitable "too fast", wouldn't it make sense to pull the creatures to prolong their existence? That's "they" do to land bearing animals on the verge of extinction and nobody has a issue with that.

 

[MoshJosh]

I feel like this is a defeatist attitude.

The reality is that this is a luxury hobby. Supporting mariculture and captive bred is tiny, but it's something. No, it won't stop people from warming the oceans, and it won't stop China from dredging every inch of the ocean for food, but it's still better than doing nothing.

We're supposed to want to protect the animals we love, not dodge regulation so we can get a rare piece.

I don't know, that's just how I feel. No point in trying to force it onto others. We're a flawed species, I try to see the good where I can. Good usually requires effort and being willing to do something you won't get credit for.

Not trying to sound defeatist, nor am I trying to say that captive breeding/aquaculture aren’t a positive thing. Just trying to say comparing the damage done by a number of industries to the damage done by the hobby is hard to do without numbers/evidence.

that said, my guess is the damage done by the hobby is minuscule in comparison to some of the industries brought up in this thread. And for that reason I don’t think Liking wild caught or collected specimens is completely unaligned with wanting to preserve/save the oceans. Now, it is certainly more complex than that and I can understand those who disagree.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Over time you will remove too many wild corals and like everything they will stop it altogether imo

Do you really think we aren’t making some sort of impact on reefs due too are hobby if everyone wanted wild corals

If all the projections of the future of reefs are accepted to be accurate by the very people who made them, shouldn't wild collection be an outrageous idea already...maybe 20 years ago? No, they can recover. iF collected sustainably.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'll be the outlier here. Yes, global warming is real. Yes, it is very detrimental (very must be quantified). No, reefs aren't disappearing in 20 years. I'm sorry to say but it's either very bad statistical errors that are very often made for these future projections (losing entire nations by the year 2000 didn't quite come close by a mile and still isn't), or they're trying to create urgency. When you read these reports and choose between the other 50 that are different timelines, you have to deeply analyze the data and how the computed it. Sometimes it makes 0 sense and is purely a scare tactic and not science.

 

[Nano_Man]

Does anyone have percentages of wild fish that die in transport from dealers to the shop . I would say a lot but don’t have any figures anyone know

If all the projections of the future of reefs are accepted to be accurate by the very people who made them, shouldn't wild collection be an outrageous idea already...maybe 20 years ago? No, they can recover. iF collected sustainably.

yes if controlled properly and that’s what concerns me

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Does anyone have percentages of wild fish that die in transport from dealers to the shop . I would say a lot but don’t have any figures anyone know

yes if controlled properly and that’s what concerns me

Many do

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Do you know the percentage of all invertebrates that blue linckia starfish make up (wild collection). Let's not forget about their typical survival rate...yes I do know the answer and they are plentiful in the ocean.

 

[Nano_Man]

Many do

So on the wild fish we are making a impact on the amount that die . If everyone survives too the shop it would of been less impact but as you said plenty die

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

So on the wild fish we are making a impact on the amount that die . If everyone survives too the shop it would of been less impact but as you said plenty die

Can you answer my previous question?

 

[Northern Flicker]

I'll be the outlier here. Yes, global warming is real. Yes, it is very detrimental (very must be quantified). No, reefs aren't disappearing in 20 years. I'm sorry to say but it's either very bad statistical errors that are very often made for these future projections (losing entire nations by the year 2000 didn't quite come close by a mile and still isn't), or they're trying to create urgency. When you read these reports and choose between the other 50 that are different timelines, you have to deeply analyze the data and how the computed it. Sometimes it makes 0 sense and is purely a scare tactic and not science.

This is like me looking at a nuclear physicist's paper, reading the abstract, flipping through some data tables and charts and then saying "you know, I don't think this is true".

Why would we take your word over people who have spent entire decades in a peer-review environment?

Also, your example of reefs dissapearing in 20 years is a strawman.