Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

[Reeflogic]

Tony, hard to tell from the photo, but is your skimmate more of a greenish tint, as opposed to the normal brownish color? Since I started bubbling, my skimmate appears greener in color. At first, I was also dosing peroxide for a small bryopsis issue, but I stopped that within the first week and did an aggressive rock dip in peroxide and yet my skimmate is still foaming out with a greenish tint. I've never had a greenish skimmate prior to bubbling.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Could bubbling become the alternative to liquid carbon dosing??
That would be very interesting...

You may be able to remove organics naturally in the water before they break down, but you won't be able to do anything with bubbles about nitrate that comes directly from ammonia excretion in organisms like fish.

 

[Squamosa]

Tony, hard to tell from the photo, but is your skimmate more of a greenish tint, as opposed to the normal brownish color? Since I started bubbling, my skimmate appears greener in color. At first, I was also dosing peroxide for a small bryopsis issue, but I stopped that within the first week and did an aggressive rock dip in peroxide and yet my skimmate is still foaming out with a greenish tint. I've never had a greenish skimmate prior to bubbling.

It varies, from a grey-green to a dark brown-black like you see in the photo, whatever colour, it looks and smells nasty

 

[The Macro Guy]

It's good to see people trying it here, since we can't reply to the other thread Im sure that one will die in a week or 2.

One way I will try to post the effectiveness of microscrubbing, is by using a DIY coral snow, and time how fast the water clears with microscrubbing and then without, with no other changes other than the bubbles. I see it as a good way to show the effectiveness of removing organics/loose compounds in the water column.

 

[Squamosa]

and time how fast

It would be better to also use a PAR meter and quantify the values, then we can add pH, ORP and PAR data to the results section of our paper

 

[Zachman99]

I stopped with the bubbles for a bit. I had the air coming into the inlet of my pan world 150 return and it seemed to be messing with it. Nitrates went back up, so I put it back in. This time I attached it to my gyre.

 

[Squamosa]

I stopped with the bubbles for a bit. I had the air coming into the inlet of my pan world 150 return and it seemed to be messing with it. Nitrates went back up, so I put it back in. This time I attached it to my gyre.

Interesting that you report NO3 values increasing. Over what time period?

Did you also notice a reduction in quantity or quality of your skimmate when not bubbling?

It's possible that you weren't skimming out the same quantity of bacteria (bubbles may have been sequestering/attaching to, more bacteria) and reducing the NO3 load of the tank?

From your picture you have lots of bubbles going on, be careful of potential salt creep

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Hi,

I have posted a couple of questions in the other thread but haven’t gotten a response yet so I thought I would try here I have read the other thread but I haven’t read through this one so please forgive me if this info has already been posted.

In the other thread a few times some people said that there are graphs clearly showing an increase in both pH and ORP. Would someone be able to post these for me? I have only seen graphs showing after and while the reefer they come from might know for sure that it is an increase from before bubbling obviously they can’t show an increase if there is no before but a graph showing before and after with the point where bubbling started marked on it would be really helpful Even one graph from before and one from after as long as they are from the same tank would be good.

I have also seen @Cruz_Arias say that PAR has been increased by using bubbling. As far as I am aware the only accurate way to measure PAR is with a PAR meter, so someone MUST have the PAR data from before and after or they couldn’t claim this, can the numbers for this please be posted too? (Knowing if the tank the data was taken from was running carbon or something else that has already been proven to increase PAR would be useful too but not essential).

Ultimately I really would like to try this method, I am not trying to knock it, just find out more about it. It seems that there are a lot of magical claims being made, I am not interested in proof of those or trying to start anything. All I would like to see are pH, ORP and PAR numbers from before and after, preferably in the same graph if possible (for pH & ORP anyway). 3 fairly easy things that a lot of hobbyists have the ability to (and probably already) track and graph with a controller.

In fact if I had a controller and a PAR meter I would do this myself but I am not in a position to get either of those things right now (unless anyone would like to contribute to the “help I’m a broke as f**k reefer fund” ). All I can currently do is a manual pH test which sin't very reliable.

I have seen people refuse to post the data being asked for as they don’t think others will believe them. Even if you really think that, if you have before and after numbers I would really like to see them please. I will help convince me to give this method a go

Thanks,

Macca

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

In the other thread a few times some people said that there are graphs clearly showing an increase in both pH and ORP. Would someone be able to post these for me? I have only seen graphs showing after and while the reefer they come from might know for sure that it is an increase from before bubbling obviously they can’t show an increase if there is no before but a graph showing before and after with the point where bubbling started marked on it would be really helpful Even one graph from before and one from after as long as they are from the same tank would be good.
this myself but I am not in a position to get either of those things right now (unless anyone would like to contribute to the “help I’m a broke as f**k reefer fund” ). All I can currently do is a manual pH test which sin't very reliable.

Note that pH may rise or fall if you use indoor air (even if you use outdoor air that may be the case). It is not always going to result in a pH rise, depending on the tank pH and the air CO2 level. It will always tug the tank back toward equilibrium with the air being used.

People reporting as pH increase (no before and after graphs were posted that I saw) have typically been using outside air, which also raises pH when connecting to a skimmer. So there's yet to be any apparent special benefit over a skimmer with respect to pH.

 

[Zachman99]

Interesting that you report NO3 values increasing. Over what time period?

Did you also notice a reduction in quantity or quality of your skimmate when not bubbling?

It's possible that you weren't skimming out the same quantity of bacteria (bubbles may have been sequestering/attaching to, more bacteria) and reducing the NO3 load of the tank?

From your picture you have lots of bubbles going on, be careful of potential salt creep

It's very possible. I use a life reef skimmer, and I have never felt that it has been able to skim as well as I need it to. It pulls stuff out, just a lot remains.
The nitrates just crept back up (I'm sure because of the skimmer) over a couple weeks.
I'm switching out my sump over the next few weeks, and adding a couple of frag tanks to my system. Part of the switch includes a different skimmer. I'll play with the nitrates and the bubbles more at this point to see if I get the same results.
Also note that we dose nopox daily.

 

[The Macro Guy]

Hi,

I have posted a couple of questions in the other thread but haven’t gotten a response yet so I thought I would try here I have read the other thread but I haven’t read through this one so please forgive me if this info has already been posted.

In the other thread a few times some people said that there are graphs clearly showing an increase in both pH and ORP. Would someone be able to post these for me? I have only seen graphs showing after and while the reefer they come from might know for sure that it is an increase from before bubbling obviously they can’t show an increase if there is no before but a graph showing before and after with the point where bubbling started marked on it would be really helpful Even one graph from before and one from after as long as they are from the same tank would be good.

I have also seen @Cruz_Arias say that PAR has been increased by using bubbling. As far as I am aware the only accurate way to measure PAR is with a PAR meter, so someone MUST have the PAR data from before and after or they couldn’t claim this, can the numbers for this please be posted too? (Knowing if the tank the data was taken from was running carbon or something else that has already been proven to increase PAR would be useful too but not essential).

Ultimately I really would like to try this method, I am not trying to knock it, just find out more about it. It seems that there are a lot of magical claims being made, I am not interested in proof of those or trying to start anything. All I would like to see are pH, ORP and PAR numbers from before and after, preferably in the same graph if possible (for pH & ORP anyway). 3 fairly easy things that a lot of hobbyists have the ability to (and probably already) track and graph with a controller.

In fact if I had a controller and a PAR meter I would do this myself but I am not in a position to get either of those things right now (unless anyone would like to contribute to the “help I’m a broke as f**k reefer fund” ). All I can currently do is a manual pH test which sin't very reliable.

I have seen people refuse to post the data being asked for as they don’t think others will believe them. Even if you really think that, if you have before and after numbers I would really like to see them please. I will help convince me to give this method a go

Thanks,

Macca

Love the passive aggressiveness, all that information you want is in the last thread. This thread isn't here to "make you a believer" or to convince you to try it. This thread is for people that are already doing it, and looking for better ways to improve on it. If you don't want to try it, simply move along.
None of the original posters can post in the last thread, other than the people arguing against it odly enough, and quite frankly, I doubt any of the pioneers of microscrubbing feel like entertaining you or anyone else with charts and graphs anymore, because as soon as they do, youll see the whole,
"oh pictures can be edited and manipulated, you need to make videos, followed by, oh videos can be time edited you need to do a live feed, followed by a final, oh cool it does work, but I'm just going to stick to what Ive been doing since it works for me."

 

[Squamosa]

I doubt any of the pioneers of microscrubbing feel like entertaining you

Oddly enough I entertained all his thoughts in a PM, but he's chosen to ignore me, which speaks volumes!

He's also been invited to a site that offers safe haven to like minded enthusiasts and where most of his questions can be answered...again ignores this!

What I won't do is reply to any skeptic on here again, that's what the ignore button is for!

 

[Squamosa]

pioneers

I hope you have not included me in this list, maybe I'm being presumptuous to even think that

I am just a reefing enthusiast willing to experiment with a technique, one of many doing the same with other techniques, considered 'out there'

OK, back to topic!

 

[Cory]

I wonder if the results could be the same by doing this inside a skimmer. Put a wood airstone by the skimmer intake, and let er rip.

 

[Squamosa]

I wonder if the results could be the same by doing this inside a skimmer. Put a wood airstone by the skimmer intake, and let er rip.

If your skimmer is very weak, it might boost your skimming ability otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Most people miss the point in that we are not trying to create another skimmer (bubbles contained in a vessel), you already have one of those and it does its job very well!

The bubbles need to move through the water column and interact with the detritus, sand, rocks, algae, cyano, diatoms, dino's and coral surfaces to have the effects we have seen and posted right through this thread. Then your skimmer can remove the waste.

Hope this helps

 

[Cory]

If your skimmer is very weak, it might boost your skimming ability otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Most people miss the point in that we are not trying to create another skimmer (bubbles contained in a vessel), you already have one of those and it does its job very well!

The bubbles need to move through the water column and interact with the detritus, sand, rocks, algae, cyano, diatoms, dino's and coral surfaces to have the effects we have seen and posted right through this thread. Then your skimmer can remove the waste.

Hope this helps

Except one thing, a skimmer isnt producing much microbubbles, but mostly larger ones. Fwiw i dont even use a skimmer, just ats.

Thats why i asked, my curiosity is about the microbubble effect, not so much skimmer bubbles.

Ive wondered if microbubbles could somehow be producing small amounts of h202. Doubt it.

Ive also wondered if microbubble friction is possibly creating something like static electricity, and that is helping corals calcify, and maybe producing ozone? That would exsplain the orp increase. If it were true. I seen a documentary where they were growing corals on an underwater electric fence, and it caused them to grow very fast.

 

[The Macro Guy]

I wonder if the results could be the same by doing this inside a skimmer. Put a wood airstone by the skimmer intake, and let er rip.

This only pulverized the organics in the skimmer chamber, I tried this with the airstone directly inside a curve 9 skimmer, I didnt notice more skimmate than standard scrubbing, but the waste inside the skimmer neck was much much finer, almost like silk, I dont see any benifit for this though, as once its out of my system, its out of my system.

 

[Squamosa]

isnt producing much microbubbles, but mostly larger ones

I completely agree, the skimmer is probably producing millimeter sized bubbles,maybe also possibly some micro sized ones.I don't think anyone has quantified the size of these skimmer bubbles

microbubble effect, not so much skimmer bubbles

Many people report positive results that you have read about here, using just the smaller bubbles, attributed to the wood block and pump.

Hideki Tsuge from Keio University in Tokyo, characterises bubbles in the following way:'10–40 μm for bioactivity field and less than 100 μm for fluid physics field'
A few of us have made our own DIY bubblers using 32 Gauge insulin needles as the air injection point and can get bubbles starting off at 110um in dia. Once they get blown 600mm to the bottom of the tank, they are very small, almost at the limit of my vision, so I believe we can get true microbubbles in size.
Once they get into the micro-sized range they start to behave differently, remaining in the water column longer and having a negative charge attached.

wondered if microbubbles could somehow be producing small amounts of h202

They are said to produce free radicals when nano in size, but that is beyond the scope of my research. Maybe others know more?

growing corals on an underwater electric fence, and it caused them to grow very fast

I have seen this too, called accretion and I think it is/was very effective.

The charges put through were very small,in the millivolt region, if memory serves me. The link: http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/biorock-stimulating-coral-growth-with-electricity.html

Producing chlorine gas is also achievable with the electrolysis of salt water though, maybe not so much of a problem in the ocean, but in your tank disastrous

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Love the passive aggressiveness, all that information you want is in the last thread.

I won’t deny I was a little passive aggressive, it just gets a bit frustrating when I keep getting told there is very clear before and after data yet every time someone asks for it they just get slammed for being a skeptic. I read the whole of the other thread, and I could have missed it, it’s very possible but as far as I saw there was no before and after pH data, no before and after PAR data (while it CAN result in an increase, clearer water does not always mean more PAR) and the only before and after numbers I saw were ORP which is a great start but it was just one before number and one after number. The main reason I am asking is that I have seen people say there are already graphs which is why I asked to see them so as far as I am aware I am only asking for things that already exist.

This thread isn't here to "make you a believer" or to convince you to try it. This thread is for people that are already doing it, and looking for better ways to improve on it. If you don't want to try it, simply move along.

At this point I will actually be trying it in a couple of weeks, I can’t get anything locally so I need to order in an air pump and air stone and will need to do a bit of searching to see which ones are recommended. Frankly it has been replies like yours that have kept me from trying it sooner.

As far as I am aware generally threads are also for people to ask questions which can add to the discussion? Especially if this is something they want to try, which I actually do. If my questions were answered with “sorry mate, we don’t actually have any of that data” then maybe I would ‘move along’ instead all I have seen is “this has already been posted” but I have looked and can’t find it.

I doubt any of the pioneers of microscrubbing feel like entertaining you or anyone else with charts and graphs anymore, because as soon as they do, youll see the whole,

"oh pictures can be edited and manipulated, you need to make videos, followed by, oh videos can be time edited you need to do a live feed, followed by a final, oh cool it does work, but I'm just going to stick to what Ive been doing since it works for me."

Wow. I really don’t know how you expect me to respond to that like an adult. Full disclosure, I still haven't had a chance to read this thread so what I am asking could very well have already been posted. But you say “charts and graphs anymore” which again implies they have been posted and as I said, I read the whole other thread and can’t seem to find them. If you have them, again, I would like to see them. Yes, it is a bit of a pain for you to post them again if they have already been posted but hey, it’s a nice thing to do.

There is no way I am not going to say something is false or edited (unless it looks like you literally just drew it in MS paint) and I actually take a bit of offense that you think I would be so petty. I am not trying to “disprove” anything. I have heard about this interesting new method. And have read people say that it increases all these parameters, sounds great! I want to try it. Can I see how you know it increased x values?

Oddly enough I entertained all his thoughts in a PM, but he's chosen to ignore me, which speaks volumes!


He's also been invited to a site that offers safe haven to like minded enthusiasts and where most of his questions can be answered...again ignores this!


What I won't do is reply to any skeptic on here again, that's what the ignore button is for!

Actually mate I read your PM and I really appreciated it. Very well written and friendly. It was actually what pushed me to give bubbling a go soon. So I haven’t ignored it at all! I have definitely been meaning to reply but you said that everything I asked for was posted in this thread and honestly I just haven’t had a chance to read the thread yet (been on nights and a bit of OT) so I really want to do that before I reply. Hopefully I will be able to read it tonight and tomorrow night if it isn't too busy or on my days off at the latest and I will certainly reply when I finish.

I will also be joining the page you linked, as I said just been pretty busy, sorry you thought I was being rude that wasn’t my intention at all. As I said, really appreciated your message.

 

[Squamosa]

So I haven’t ignored it at all! I have definitely been meaning to reply but you said that everything I asked for was posted in this thread and honestly I just haven’t had a chance to read the thread yet

Well then, you have my sincerest apology

Hope to have you on board soon