Micro and nano bubble tank treatment
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acolotto
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posted this in the other thread but seems this one has it so everybody can reply, thanks in advance
has anyone ever microbubbled their tank for a yr and still doing it, and is their tank is still healthy and thriving? Whats your opinions and observations on it? Seems everyone that suggests for people to try it have only been doing it for a month or a couple months?
Also why have none of the claims ever been proven? Seems it would be simple enough to get an orp probe, ph probe, and a par meter, you know since apex has one of each.
Why is causing your corals to remove their slime coat a good thing? I dose KZ Flatworm stop in my tank, which DOES NOT KILL AEFW, it causes coral (acros) to grow a thicker mucus slime coat so that the AEFW cannot harm the acro. This makes me believe that coral slime coats are built for protection, so how does removing the coat every night help? Seems like you are leaving your corals vulnerable, then asking a lot of them of the rebuild that slime coat. Does them having to rebuild this slime coat, take away energy they would be using on building skeleton if they were not being encouraged to remove the slime coat by micro bubbling? I know these ones would be really difficult to figure out the answer to but i feel like its a good question to think about.
Im not a scientist, just a hobbyist that would like to do whats best for his tank. Not bashing just some of my questions I have never asked or gotten an answer too, so please don't try to spin this as me bashing the concept as I have no where enough information on the subject to form an opinion
And do not tell me to do it, im not the one pushing it, why would I produce the data? I just would like some data, instead of just because this guy says so. I'm just a skeptical reefer looking for some answers to my questions. Please do not get offended, defensive, or think im saying it doesnt work, I just really dont know much about it and these are my questions. Thank you in advance for any response
has anyone ever microbubbled their tank for a yr and still doing it, and is their tank is still healthy and thriving? Whats your opinions and observations on it? Seems everyone that suggests for people to try it have only been doing it for a month or a couple months?
Also why have none of the claims ever been proven? Seems it would be simple enough to get an orp probe, ph probe, and a par meter, you know since apex has one of each.
Why is causing your corals to remove their slime coat a good thing? I dose KZ Flatworm stop in my tank, which DOES NOT KILL AEFW, it causes coral (acros) to grow a thicker mucus slime coat so that the AEFW cannot harm the acro. This makes me believe that coral slime coats are built for protection, so how does removing the coat every night help? Seems like you are leaving your corals vulnerable, then asking a lot of them of the rebuild that slime coat. Does them having to rebuild this slime coat, take away energy they would be using on building skeleton if they were not being encouraged to remove the slime coat by micro bubbling? I know these ones would be really difficult to figure out the answer to but i feel like its a good question to think about.
Im not a scientist, just a hobbyist that would like to do whats best for his tank. Not bashing just some of my questions I have never asked or gotten an answer too, so please don't try to spin this as me bashing the concept as I have no where enough information on the subject to form an opinion
And do not tell me to do it, im not the one pushing it, why would I produce the data? I just would like some data, instead of just because this guy says so. I'm just a skeptical reefer looking for some answers to my questions. Please do not get offended, defensive, or think im saying it doesnt work, I just really dont know much about it and these are my questions. Thank you in advance for any response
Cruz_Arias
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A lot of your questions have been answered in the other thread just an FYI. Some of the information was deleted by R2R.
We have also posted pH graphs before and after the "micro-bubbling" method.
Being a skeptical reefer is fine so long as you have the background and knowledge of what is being discussed. I'm not saying full blown PhD's and other degrees, I'm talking about the basic knowledge in physical science such as floatation separation, nutrient transport in the Marine Biotope, the premise of mucus shedding, the benefits and efficiencies of smaller bubble sizes for better aeration and increased buoyancy in particulates in a "micro/nano bubbled" solution.
Please do not take this as "being mean" either... But many of the questions you have asked had already been discussed and yes, there are a lot more questions that this method opens up!
How else are we going to progress and learn if we, as a hobby, already think we know it all?
That's the skeptic in me. I'm skeptical that the knowledge base in reef keeping is complete. There are LOTs of holes, Lots of inconsistencies, and Lots of items that should be brought up for re-discussion.
This method is simply this...
Aeration.
Floatation Separation and added buoyancy to suspended particulates.
Creation of as small a bubble as we can with what we have.
Bringing in MORE fresh air in ADDITION to the skimmer.
And Placement of the wooden air diffuser for the smallest bubbles to be distributed.
Hopefully that answers a few of your questions.
ShawnSaucier
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this is something I've been wanting to try for a long time. To me it makes sense, as it mimics waves crashing on the reef. This thread is so long and I'm trying to get it all in but I have a few basic questions that I am sure have been answered somewhere in this thread. I do apologize if it's repetitive.
Is anyone finding that a certain length of time is more or less a benifit when adding the bubbles to your system? I am considering running this during my Nutrient Export morning phase that I have programmed with my MP40's, which runs about 2 1/2 hours. Is anyone else doing this? Maybe start the bubble 1/2 hour before the pumps transition into this mode and end the bubbles 1/2 hour before the end of the pump cycle..
Is anyone finding that a certain length of time is more or less a benifit when adding the bubbles to your system? I am considering running this during my Nutrient Export morning phase that I have programmed with my MP40's, which runs about 2 1/2 hours. Is anyone else doing this? Maybe start the bubble 1/2 hour before the pumps transition into this mode and end the bubbles 1/2 hour before the end of the pump cycle..
Cruz_Arias
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@acolotto
In regards to the KZ product to produce the slime coat... wouldn't it make sense that if the flatworm was on the "mucus" that if you allow the coral to shed the mucus that the flatworm would also be trapped in the mucus to be carried away from the coral?
I would like to think (speculation) that the excess mucus production allows the corals to trap the parasites in the mucus and then expel the parasites (similar to other sedentary or slow moving animals).
Just something to chew on.
In regards to the KZ product to produce the slime coat... wouldn't it make sense that if the flatworm was on the "mucus" that if you allow the coral to shed the mucus that the flatworm would also be trapped in the mucus to be carried away from the coral?
I would like to think (speculation) that the excess mucus production allows the corals to trap the parasites in the mucus and then expel the parasites (similar to other sedentary or slow moving animals).
Just something to chew on.
Cruz_Arias
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We perform the aeration time just like dosing anything else in the system. We adjust the time based on bio-load in relation to pH-buffering capacity.
For instance if the Alk level is around 9.5 dKH we would expect the pH to be around 8.2 - 8.3 when the water is not CO2 ladened.
At an Alk of around 8.0 dKH we would expect the pH to be around 8.0 when the water is not CO2 ladened
At an Alk of around 10 dKH we would also expect the pH to be around 8.45 when the water is not CO2 ladened
We run ours at night (right before lights out then, if you have an Apex, ON before the pH starts to drop to keep the pH stable) anywhere from 2 to 4 hours a night depending also on nutrient levels (NO3 and PO4 primarily)
If the levels start creeping up (together) we run the aeration a little bit longer. We believe this helps the aerobic bacterial population that consumes the nutrients. The skimmer then removes the bacteria in the water column exporting the excess nutrients inside of the bacteria that just consumed the nutrients.
Cruz_Arias
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There's more than one way to skin a cat... but this is how I've been doing it for the last 16 years...
Cruz_Arias
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You'll know as the bubbles get larger and larger that the phoelm cell walls are degrading (wood decomposition)
If your Alk remains stable you'll notice as the airstone (wooden diffuser) starts decomposing, the pH will start to decrease as well... This was just something observed, not really understanding why other than the presumption that it has to do with bubble size...
Once again, it was an observation and not really quantified.
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Acolotto
My current setup has been bubbling for ten years, and my verdict is neutral. The bubbling neither boosts nor hurts the coral, simple as that. Others may find other details but my take after constant micro bubbling for about 16 yrs total is its neutral to the coral growth (but chemically beneficial as a degas agent for sure, handy in other ways imo)
Bubbling covered in 2003
http://www.reefs.org/forums/topic27584.html
My current setup has been bubbling for ten years, and my verdict is neutral. The bubbling neither boosts nor hurts the coral, simple as that. Others may find other details but my take after constant micro bubbling for about 16 yrs total is its neutral to the coral growth (but chemically beneficial as a degas agent for sure, handy in other ways imo)
Bubbling covered in 2003
http://www.reefs.org/forums/topic27584.html
Jimbo662
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I don't think I saw this mentioned or asked in any of the posts. Would it be beneficial to add a second pump? Have the air sucked into the fist pump and the outflow of that pump directed at the intake of the return pump?
dwebb1031
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Every setup I've seen is just the one. Not to say someone isn't using two though. I been doing this for about a month and I can't give numerical data but I've definitely seen improvements.
Cruz_Arias
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You do not want to "shoot or inject" water from one pump to the other... that would create a potential for supersaturation especially if not controlled...
It is NOT meant to turn the DT into a Jacuzzi or a Skimmer.
The method is utilized to aerate more effectively and efficiently as well as nutrient transport and export (via a good skimmer). All benefits fall under those two premises.
Wooden airstone... deepwater air pump... and air pump in a fresh air location. Simple.
It's not complicated nor does it have to be.
Cruz_Arias
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How are you creating and delivering micro bubbles? Are they millimeter size? micron sized?
What are your parameters? temperature? lighting? softies? sps, lps?
Perhaps just a slight adjustment and things will change for the positive. May I help?
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its that
not that I want to bubble, but we have to due to the size and convenience of the container, the bubbles are excellent at keeping co2 out of the tank. regarding coral growth, those that use powerheads get the same growth so I deemed it neutral to have bubbled this long but certainly not harmful or taxing to the corals imo
the bubbles are turned down 4x for this vid, its usually a white cloud.
Cruz_Arias
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Thought this would explain the science of micro and nanobubbles... (aka Really really really small bubbles, smaller than the ones in a skimmer)
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/nanobubble.html
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/nanobubble.html
