Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

[brandon429]

Good read~ mine aren't the true micro bubbles but they do give some insight into multi years of slime exudate/rebuilds and general physical affects, closing in on having to guess at what happens over the years. it would be neat to see two ideal tanks growing some m capricornis one bubbled/one not but both with exceptional growing abilities to where we can see just the bubble effects

the current pics in here of the great SPS growth with the bubbles look just like non bubbled ones as well, hard to find the cause tie in

 

[acolotto]

@acolotto

In regards to the KZ product to produce the slime coat... wouldn't it make sense that if the flatworm was on the "mucus" that if you allow the coral to shed the mucus that the flatworm would also be trapped in the mucus to be carried away from the coral?

I would like to think (speculation) that the excess mucus production allows the corals to trap the parasites in the mucus and then expel the parasites (similar to other sedentary or slow moving animals).

Just something to chew on.

that doesnt make any sense, then the corals have no barrier anymore to protect them and then the flatworms would just get back to them, Not like knocking them off the corals kills them. And I have a tank with 50+ acros in so theyd most likely just get knocked to the next colony. They'd just crawl back eventually to a coral with n0 mucus and eat the crap out of it, now that there is no thick mucus to separate it from the tissue of the coral. This is why I ask how is removing what corals build for protection a good thing? Do they remove their slime coat everyday in the wild? What are the benefits from this? They build skeleton at night time, does this have any affect on that process of them taking in those nutrients to build new skeleton?

I didn't see any before and after graphs of the ph, oxygen levels and par levels, ill go back and check though. Seen some after they stared but nothing to compare from before they ever started bubbling. Also ill check out that article you linked. Thank you for the responses @Cruz_Arias, im gonna keep trying to learn about this method, more then likely wont use it but still like to learn of all the different methods in case I get bored and want to run an experiment and see how a certain method works on my tank.

 

[brandon429]

yes they exude and replace the slime coat constantly in the wild, they can eat them and the inclusions for growth, or shed them as sand removal etc. I view slime production and renewal in corals like breathing for us...we are using energy to gain and produce more energy as a net even at the loss of energy that breathing causes in production.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

that doesnt make any sense, then the corals have no barrier anymore to protect them and then the flatworms would just get back to them, Not like knocking them off the corals kills them. And I have a tank with 50+ acros in so theyd most likely just get knocked to the next colony. They'd just crawl back eventually to a coral with n0 mucus and eat the crap out of it, now that there is no thick mucus to separate it from the tissue of the coral. This is why I ask how is removing what corals build for protection a good thing? Do they remove their slime coat everyday in the wild? What are the benefits from this? They build skeleton at night time, does this have any affect on that process of them taking in those nutrients to build new skeleton?

I didn't see any before and after graphs of the ph, oxygen levels and par levels, ill go back and check though. Seen some after they stared but nothing to compare from before they ever started bubbling. Also ill check out that article you linked. Thank you for the responses @Cruz_Arias, im gonna keep trying to learn about this method, more then likely wont use it but still like to learn of all the different methods in case I get bored and want to run an experiment and see how a certain method works on my tank.

The slime coat is quickly regenerated... remember, we're only talking 2 to 4 hours a night on average...
It's like blowing your nose... Mucus in the nose is for defense against airborne dust, allergens, and mites very much the same as mucus is also seen as a sacrificial expulsion to ensure cleanliness and continued protection of the membranes.

It has to renew itself. Corals can produce mucus extremely fast when under attack. Snails do this on land... slugs do as well...
In any other mollusk they constantly shed a slime mucus to ensure cleanliness...

In regards to the AEFW, we do not keep them in our systems. With proper inspection and quarantine, we have not (knock on wood) had the unfortunate experience of having those pests...

With the mucus, it TRAPS the parasites such as redbugs in the excess mucus during bubbling and lifts the redbugs (stuck to the mucus) OUT OF THE tank to be skimmed.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I didn't see any before and after graphs of the ph, oxygen levels and par levels, ill go back and check though. Seen some after they stared but nothing to compare from before they ever started bubbling. Also ill check out that article you linked. Thank you for the responses @Cruz_Arias, im gonna keep trying to learn about this method, more then likely wont use it but still like to learn of all the different methods in case I get bored and want to run an experiment and see how a certain method works on my tank.

There is a point of detrimental return when the mucus sloughing is too thick for proper gas exchange...
Being that bacteria also live in the "mucus" the O2 or other micro/trace nutrients or macro nutrients would have a very hard time getting through that thick layer of "mucus".

Pretty soon the mucus is so logged and ladened with detritus, particulates, and sediment to a point where there is near 0 nutrient or gas exchange at the thickest part of "old mucus"

In regards to people posting up pH charts, here is another one...

Page 6 comment [HASHTAG]#106[/HASHTAG]

 

[Cruz_Arias]

that doesnt make any sense, then the corals have no barrier anymore to protect them and then the flatworms would just get back to them, Not like knocking them off the corals kills them. And I have a tank with 50+ acros in so theyd most likely just get knocked to the next colony. They'd just crawl back eventually to a coral with n0 mucus and eat the crap out of it, now that there is no thick mucus to separate it from the tissue of the coral. This is why I ask how is removing what corals build for protection a good thing? Do they remove their slime coat everyday in the wild? What are the benefits from this? They build skeleton at night time, does this have any affect on that process of them taking in those nutrients to build new skeleton?

Your statements regarding AEFW is speculation, acolotto. There are no studies that show that allowing regeneration of new slime, in corals, makes corals more vulnerable to AEFW activity.

In regards to coral shedding their mucus regularly, yes... corals regenerate their mucus daily... Some more than others.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v428/n6978/fig_tab/nature02344_F3.html

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Here is another article done by MIT in regards to constant mucus production and the benefits the CONSTANT mucus production has on corals and what the mucus is used for.

https://cee.mit.edu/News/releases/2013/sulfurous-chemical-serves-as-clarion-call-for-coral-pathogens

"The coral produces the mucus continuously as a means of cleansing and defense, and DMSP is produced both by the coral polyp and its symbiotic algae. However, no one knows exactly why the mucus contains elevated levels of DMSP during periods of stress or why the pathogens home in on that specific molecule.

Stocker had shown in earlier research unrelated to corals that ocean microbes are attracted to DMSP and will swim along chemical gradients — a behavior called chemotaxis — to reach it. However, this is the first study to show that DMSP attracts coral pathogens and that the pathogens are able to alter their swimming direction as well as their speed — a behavior called chemokinesis — to reach their targets."

If the pathogens in the reef tank are trapped in the mucus, then at night the mucus is removed that contains the pathogens, the coral is, now, free of pathogenic issuances.

One again... No one knows why DMSP is produced at an elevated level or why pathogens are attracted to it. But by allowing the corals to shed their mucus layer regularly, for 2 to 4 hours a day, we have not seen any negative effects on our systems for the last 16 going on 17 years as well.

I personally have been reefing since the mid 90's in Southern California.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

yes they exude and replace the slime coat constantly in the wild, they can eat them and the inclusions for growth, or shed them as sand removal etc. I view slime production and renewal in corals like breathing for us...we are using energy to gain and produce more energy as a net even at the loss of energy that breathing causes in production.

LOL we "slough off skin cells daily and hair"... so far, I'm still here... LOL

 

[McMullen]

I read the "MIT," study, very interesting! However, I don't recall reading pathogens become "trapped." It seems the study proves when corals are stressed they release a chemical that attracts pathogens thus infecting coral.

The question now is, does bubbling somehow decrease the overall number of pathogens? If so, is there an improvement in coral health?

 

[McMullen]

Your statements regarding AEFW is speculation, acolotto. There are no studies that show that allowing regeneration of new slime, in corals, makes corals more vulnerable to AEFW activity.[|QUOTE]

Or visa versa!!
The nature.com site demonstrates corals shed mucus use on a continuous cycle with seemingly equal replacement. The mucous serves as a food source.

 

[McMullen]

Went to page 6 and did not find a graph.

I'm on my phone, so the display is different than desktop, not seeing post numbers.

 

[TrPPnN]

The slime coat is quickly regenerated... remember, we're only talking 2 to 4 hours a night on average...
It's like blowing your nose... Mucus in the nose is for defense against airborne dust, allergens, and mites very much the same as mucus is also seen as a sacrificial expulsion to ensure cleanliness and continued protection of the membranes.

It has to renew itself. Corals can produce mucus extremely fast when under attack. Snails do this on land... slugs do as well...
In any other mollusk they constantly shed a slime mucus to ensure cleanliness...

In regards to the AEFW, we do not keep them in our systems. With proper inspection and quarantine, we have not (knock on wood) had the unfortunate experience of having those pests...

With the mucus, it TRAPS the parasites such as redbugs in the excess mucus during bubbling and lifts the redbugs (stuck to the mucus) OUT OF THE tank to be skimmed.

Makes sense

 

[TrPPnN]

Went to page 6 and did not find a graph.

I'm on my phone, so the display is different than desktop, not seeing post numbers.

I think he was referring to page 6 of the other bubble post. There was a pH graph early on and then a couple of Apex shotsin one of the last pages also in the other post.

JMTC

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I read the "MIT," study, very interesting! However, I don't recall reading pathogens become "trapped." It seems the study proves when corals are stressed they release a chemical that attracts pathogens thus infecting coral.

The question now is, does bubbling somehow decrease the overall number of pathogens? If so, is there an improvement in coral health?

My group is only DEDUCING this hypothesis... lol

I believe that if the mucuous layer is removed nightly, the pathogens don't have a chance to reach the coral membrane itself.

Once again, speculation with similar flagellates such as spermatazoa... takes forever just to penetrate mucus layers in other physiological aspects.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Makes sense

Thanks, @TrPPnN... lol

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Went to page 6 and did not find a graph.

I'm on my phone, so the display is different than desktop, not seeing post numbers.

It's in the other bubble post. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[TrPPnN]

I don't think I saw this mentioned or asked in any of the posts. Would it be beneficial to add a second pump? Have the air sucked into the fist pump and the outflow of that pump directed at the intake of the return pump?

Its ideas like this that keep the hobby thinking. Keep the ideas rolling bro!

 

[McMullen]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3358026/

This study shows coral shed mucous to control the number of bacteria on its surface, but Vibrio C. is able to over come such shedding. I think for us, this is more proof that coral mucous is a defense and they shed and replace naturally.

@Cruz_Arias, I think it should be pointed out that though we shed skin and hair all day, we're sloughing off dead cells. Fresh new cells are already in place and there is no point of entry for bacteria that colonize our skin. Coral, naturally shed their mucous layer, but it happens organically, meaning a small amount at a time. The bubbling method suggests that forcing coral to shed relatively all of it's mucous layer within a 4-6-8hr time frame is beneficial.

Does this forceful shedding cause harm? It seems that it does not, based on many here who have chimed in. Is there a "health," benefit to the coral? No evidence as far as I can tell.

There are questions about AEFW and red bugs. At this point it seems all answers are based on speculation most importantly the companies selling products!

I have yet to find an article or study showing the turnover rate of 100% of a coral species mucous layer. So, how long does it take for a coral to shed and replace 100% of its mucous naturally. Also, looking for information on pests being trapped then shed within the mucous layer. Pests meaning the dreaded AEFW and or red bugs! Please post if you find something!!

Could someone please post a link to the other bubbling thread, page 6, for the pH graph…..thank you in advance!

 

[Cruz_Arias]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3358026/

This study shows coral shed mucous to control the number of bacteria on its surface, but Vibrio C. is able to over come such shedding. I think for us, this is more proof that coral mucous is a defense and they shed and replace naturally.

@Cruz_Arias, I think it should be pointed out that though we shed skin and hair all day, we're sloughing off dead cells. Fresh new cells are already in place and there is no point of entry for bacteria that colonize our skin. Coral, naturally shed their mucous layer, but it happens organically, meaning a small amount at a time. The bubbling method suggests that forcing coral to shed relatively all of it's mucous layer within a 4-6-8hr time frame is beneficial.

Does this forceful shedding cause harm? It seems that it does not, based on many here who have chimed in. Is there a "health," benefit to the coral? No evidence as far as I can tell.

There are questions about AEFW and red bugs. At this point it seems all answers are based on speculation most importantly the companies selling products!

I have yet to find an article or study showing the turnover rate of 100% of a coral species mucous layer. So, how long does it take for a coral to shed and replace 100% of its mucous naturally. Also, looking for information on pests being trapped then shed within the mucous layer. Pests meaning the dreaded AEFW and or red bugs! Please post if you find something!!

Could someone please post a link to the other bubbling thread, page 6, for the pH graph…..thank you in advance!

Which companies are selling products? Is my question...
But like exfoliating daily, does a regimented stress of desliming for 2-4-6-8 hour time frame beneficial or even significant stress to the coral at all?


I have seen a plethora of people claim that how we are applying bubbles will kill fish and kill corals... so far, we have not received any negatives from the wooden airstone/return pump method.

The negativities are coming from negative speculation of the worst possible case scenario... which is also a reason why we (Elegant Corals) wanted to demonstrate the correct method, application, and utilization of a wooden air diffuser and any other very fine bubble production unit that is currently in the market, or will be in the future.

All it is is educating correct placement, delivery method concept, and sharing outside applications with the hobby that can and is currently helping many hobbyists internationally.

A simple means of aeration can be more effective than treating all the symptoms of oxygen deprivation with numerous reactors that depend on oxygen availability as well.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

@McMullen

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-scrubbing-bubbles.224373/page-59

Or visa versa!!
The nature.com site demonstrates corals shed mucus use on a continuous cycle with seemingly equal replacement. The mucous serves as a food source.

A good food source for bacteria and other detritivores... correct.
But this food source should be REMOVED from the corals (my opinion)