Mindstream a cheaper/better alternative to Trident? What's the catch

[jda]

I will take this one step farther... I want to see it in action for five years with some good, smart hobbyists to relay the pros, cons and nuance to us. Until then, every manufacturer has the best product for the cheapest cost and over 25+ years, nearly all of them end up sucking.

People on the cutting edge tend to end up bleeding. ...a few months can save a lot of scars. ...a year even more. ...a few years, nearly all.

 

[reefwiser]

I have been following since first announced long trip but for testing you need to be sure it is right and dead on. So they took time.

 

[Reef pete]

I Just got one at MACNA, I'll post when I get my hands on her!

 

[User1]

There is not a single thing cheaper if one uses the Mindstream compared to the Trident. Not even close. The only question or questions one asks is this:

1. Do you have a Trident capable controller? If yes, then the Trident is cheaper
2. If you do not have a Trident capable controller, do you plane to get one? If yes, then the Trident is cheaper
3. If you do not have a Apex controller, or a controller, or another brand is it something you would consider swapping? If so, then if the cost is less than say $1,500 the Trident will be cheaper by the 6th month mark.
4. If you don't have a controller, do not plan to, then it doesn't matter. Mindstream will work for you.

MS entry point is high. MS monthly/yearly subscription is stupidly high. MS hasn't found a way to add a ala'cart test methodology similar to Tee-shirt sizes or NetFlix models. You get all or nothing. That is why it is a bad design.

Sounds like I may be bashing it, I'm not. I am very opinionated on the subscription but that is my issue and just an opinion. I think it has a lot of potential. I think as a base system it does more than enough and if I was looking at a single option this may be the one. However already having a controller sort of lead me another route. Also even if I didn't have that controller but using my previous one, Reef Angel, I would still have duplicate of measurements (some) that MS would do. So for me it really comes down to what you have already, plans, budget, and make a choice.

But do I think based on the title MS is cheaper - no. Not even close.

 

[hart24601]

I have no controllers and don't plan to, so the MS should work well. As for cheaper.... well I don't reef on a budget to be honest. I want something with no pumps to worry about calibration or drifts over time. No need to worry about intake tubing, overflows of waste or routing. Oh a hose in the squeeze pump came loose? I just don’t want to fuss with it. I hate subscriptions but really any equipment that requires specific reagents is subscription in my eyes, you can stop buying it, but it won’t work.

 

[User1]

I have no controllers and don't plan to, so the MS should work well. As for cheaper.... well I don't reef on a budget to be honest. I want something with no pumps to worry about calibration or drifts over time. No need to worry about intake tubing, overflows of waste or routing. Oh a hose in the squeeze pump came loose? I just don’t want to fuss with it. I hate subscriptions but really any equipment that requires specific reagents is subscription in my eyes, you can stop buying it, but it won’t work.

So see, the product is perfect for you. Not the budget part of course ( ) but the reason why. Not that you need a reason of course. But the reason why you picked it I mean is great.

For me it was sort of the opposite. I had a controller compatible to the Trident so had to do some more pro/con. Will never know if it is the right choice but then do we ever? I am watching the MS though because I do hope they find a way to lower the subscription (for everyone) or at least offer reduced test choices.

 

[BZOFIQ]

There is not a single thing cheaper if one uses the Mindstream compared to the Trident. Not even close. The only question or questions one asks is this:

How do you figure? Trident doesn't measure half the stuff Mindstream does.
Mindstream also measures more often so in actuality it is far cheaper per test - by looooong stretch.

2. If you do not have a Trident capable controller, do you plane to get one? If yes, then the Trident is cheaper

But it's not

3. If you do not have a Apex controller, or a controller, or another brand is it something you would consider swapping? If so, then if the cost is less than say $1,500 the Trident will be cheaper by the 6th month mark.

Would love to see your reasoning behind it

MS entry point is high. MS monthly/yearly subscription is stupidly high. MS hasn't found a way to add a ala'cart test methodology similar to Tee-shirt sizes or NetFlix models. You get all or nothing. That is why it is a bad design.

Entry point is not stupidly high, its $1000 vs $700 for Trident. Trident measures only 3 parameters, and just like MS you take it all or nothing - unfortunately, the ALL for Trident just happens to be limited to 3 parameters only.

Sounds like I may be bashing it, I'm not. I am very opinionated on the subscription but that is my issue and just an opinion. I think it has a lot of potential. I think as a base system it does more than enough and if I was looking at a single option this may be the one. However already having a controller sort of lead me another route. Also even if I didn't have that controller but using my previous one, Reef Angel, I would still have duplicate of measurements (some) that MS would do. So for me it really comes down to what you have already, plans, budget, and make a choice.

But do I think based on the title MS is cheaper - no. Not even close.

I think you are bashing it and yet we dont even have much feedback, especially re long term usability/reliability. Trident uses reagents and you buy them over and over with MindStream you buy the disk every month. They are very different but also the same in that regard. You also have to prime and calibrate the Trident, a process that is time consuming and with that - costly.

Trident has to be mailed in or serviced after 18-24 months at a cost and there are mechanical things that can break, add to that all those hoses, water being removed, slow testing and far fewer tests performed on far fewer water parameters and I believe the odds are stacked against it.

By contrast, you have a small puck, no chemicals, no priming, no calibrating, no fussing, etc, etc.

It just connects to WiFi and constantly measures and records all 10 parameters. I think Neptune finally has long overdue competitor. Time will show long term results - for both.

 

[User1]

How do you figure? Trident doesn't measure half the stuff Mindstream does.
Mindstream also measures more often so in actuality it is far cheaper per test - by looooong stretch.



But it's not



Would love to see your reasoning behind it



Entry point is not stupidly high, its $1000 vs $700 for Trident. Trident measures only 3 parameters, and just like MS you take it all or nothing - unfortunately, the ALL for Trident just happens to be limited to 3 parameters only.





I think you are bashing it and yet we dont even have much feedback, especially re long term usability/reliability. Trident uses reagents and you buy them over and over with MindStream you buy the disk every month. They are very different but also the same in that regard. You also have to prime and calibrate the Trident, a process that is time consuming and with that - costly.

Trident has to be mailed in or serviced after 18-24 months at a cost and there are mechanical things that can break, add to that all those hoses, water being removed, slow testing and far fewer tests performed on far fewer water parameters and I believe the odds are stacked against it.

By contrast, you have a small puck, no chemicals, no priming, no calibrating, no fussing, etc, etc.

It just connects to WiFi and constantly measures and records all 10 parameters. I think Neptune finally has long overdue competitor. Time will show long term results - for both.

How so? There is no bashing.

If you have a controller you most likely have salinity, orp, temp, ph so that would be a duplicate. If you have a compatible controller then you are only out 600 bucks plus reagents. That is cheaper. Sorry you don't see it that way. Extra tests or not the hobbyist has to determine if those are more important than the others. Seems like common sense to me.

Let us now say you don't have a controller. $1,000 buy in and $230 a year for subscription.

While there is maintenance on the Trident it isn't just mail in. You can order a kit (TBD) and do it yourself.

There are no one vs either product other than what will work for the hobbyist. If one feels all 10 tests are important and doesn't have a controller duplicating some measurements I say go for it. On the other hand for me, as I noted above, unless they make options which lower the cost it wouldn't be a choice for me.

Not sure how that comes across as bashing when every time I provide comments to the MS product I'm always consistently saying cost, test options, and that I'm glad they are doing what they are. It helps us all in the long run. But maybe bad bed side manors in how I say stupidly over prices - I'll give you that.

Then again I'm not one to be a fan of subscriptions and I also believe I said that I'm biased. So if they could offer a disc that only tested A, B, and C - because I already have the rest, maybe it would work or sell more. I don't know.

Apologies if you believe I'm bashing it.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

How do you figure? Trident doesn't measure half the stuff Mindstream does.
Mindstream also measures more often so in actuality it is far cheaper per test - by looooong stretch.



But it's not



Would love to see your reasoning behind it



Entry point is not stupidly high, its $1000 vs $700 for Trident. Trident measures only 3 parameters, and just like MS you take it all or nothing - unfortunately, the ALL for Trident just happens to be limited to 3 parameters only.





I think you are bashing it and yet we dont even have much feedback, especially re long term usability/reliability. Trident uses reagents and you buy them over and over with MindStream you buy the disk every month. They are very different but also the same in that regard. You also have to prime and calibrate the Trident, a process that is time consuming and with that - costly.

Trident has to be mailed in or serviced after 18-24 months at a cost and there are mechanical things that can break, add to that all those hoses, water being removed, slow testing and far fewer tests performed on far fewer water parameters and I believe the odds are stacked against it.

By contrast, you have a small puck, no chemicals, no priming, no calibrating, no fussing, etc, etc.

It just connects to WiFi and constantly measures and records all 10 parameters. I think Neptune finally has long overdue competitor. Time will show long term results - for both.

Yeah I think as it stands (without long term data of course) Mindstream is a far more superior device, for roughly 120 more dollars per year. I think comparing the two in a way of the yearly cost difference is useless. It’s like saying 3 chickens for 350 dollars are cheaper than 10 chickens for 420 dollars. All of a sudden it’s hard to tell what’s really cheaper.

 

[User1]

Yeah I think as it stands (without long term data of course) Mindstream is a far more superior device, for roughly 120 more dollars per year. I think comparing the two in a way of the yearly cost difference is useless. It’s like saying 3 chickens for 350 dollars are cheaper than 10 chickens for 420 dollars. All of a sudden it’s hard to tell what’s really cheaper.

Per test cost.

Of course MS will test more so you may have to separate some things out. On the other hand the Trident cost may vary depending on the frequency of daily testing. Just as we will have to see how long the discs last which I'm sure they have worked hard to make it 30 days.

I still think one of the factors that will come out of this is what is the right tests to include as base and what can be added on later. That is the one area Reef Bot stands out. You can choose rather than being locked in.

Just another side of the coin I guess.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

How so? There is no bashing.

If you have a controller you most likely have salinity, orp, temp, ph so that would be a duplicate. If you have a compatible controller then you are only out 600 bucks plus reagents. That is cheaper. Sorry you don't see it that way. Extra tests or not the hobbyist has to determine if those are more important than the others. Seems like common sense to me.

Let us now say you don't have a controller. $1,000 buy in and $230 a year for subscription.

While there is maintenance on the Trident it isn't just mail in. You can order a kit (TBD) and do it yourself.

There are no one vs either product other than what will work for the hobbyist. If one feels all 10 tests are important and doesn't have a controller duplicating some measurements I say go for it. On the other hand for me, as I noted above, unless they make options which lower the cost it wouldn't be a choice for me.

Not sure how that comes across as bashing when every time I provide comments to the MS product I'm always consistently saying cost, test options, and that I'm glad they are doing what they are. It helps us all in the long run. But maybe bad bed side manors in how I say stupidly over prices - I'll give you that.

Then again I'm not one to be a fan of subscriptions and I also believe I said that I'm biased. So if they could offer a disc that only tested A, B, and C - because I already have the rest, maybe it would work or sell more. I don't know.

Apologies if you believe I'm bashing it.

To be fair. You’re disregarding some of very important measurements and costs here. Salinity probe costs ~$120 and it’s trash always drifts and loses the accuracy. PH probe is 45- 60 and loses calibration overtime. Idk about ORP but I’m pretty sure it needs to be replaced occasionally. Those are all not free. Those need to be added into the costs for a fair comparison. Even the calibration solutions that you use to calibrate those things 2 times per year also should be included. The fact that your controller can react to ph, alk, ca, mg, readings is something that should be considered. Otherwise, mindstream might be a cheaper option after all.

 

[BZOFIQ]

How so? There is no bashing.

If you have a controller you most likely have salinity, orp, temp, ph so that would be a duplicate. If you have a compatible controller then you are only out 600 bucks plus reagents. That is cheaper. Sorry you don't see it that way. Extra tests or not the hobbyist has to determine if those are more important than the others. Seems like common sense to me.

Agreed on duplicate measurements but how many times have you reached out for test kits or portable tool to double- check what the controller has measured? Did you all of the sudden dump all of it and believed apex/profilux/name-your-favorite controller unconditionally?

Confirmation/Validation is key!

People are sending water for testing to confirm a lot of the stuff they already tested for. Did you see anybody asking ICP companies not to test ALK, CA, Ph, etc etc to make it cheaper? Me neither.

Let us now say you don't have a controller. $1,000 buy in and $230 a year for subscription.

While there is maintenance on the Trident it isn't just mail in. You can order a kit (TBD) and do it yourself.

Mail in or DIY, add either option to the cost.

There are no one vs either product other than what will work for the hobbyist. If one feels all 10 tests are important and doesn't have a controller duplicating some measurements I say go for it. On the other hand for me, as I noted above, unless they make options which lower the cost it wouldn't be a choice for me.

Not sure how that comes across as bashing when every time I provide comments to the MS product I'm always consistently saying cost, test options, and that I'm glad they are doing what they are. It helps us all in the long run. But maybe bad bed side manors in how I say stupidly over prices - I'll give you that.

Then again I'm not one to be a fan of subscriptions and I also believe I said that I'm biased. So if they could offer a disc that only tested A, B, and C - because I already have the rest, maybe it would work or sell more. I don't know.

Apologies if you believe I'm bashing it.

I understand, perhaps MS will offer different levels down the line.

 

[User1]

To be fair. You’re disregarding some of very important measurements and costs here. Salinity probe costs ~$120 and it’s trash always drifts and loses the accuracy. PH probe is 45- 60 and loses calibration overtime. Idk about ORP but I’m pretty sure it needs to be replaced occasionally. Those are all not free. Those need to be added into the costs for a fair comparison. Even the calibration solutions that you use to calibrate those things 2 times per year also should be included. The fact that your controller can react to ph, alk, ca, mg, readings is something that should be considered. Otherwise, mindstream might be a cheaper option after all.

It may be. I do not disagree so no argument from me.

 

[Oldreefer44]

As a Mindstream owner and a natural born skeptic, I can say that I am more than impressed so far but as a former Apex gold owner, it is not for everyone. The exception is for someone that wants to have everything controlled automatically. I want to know what is going on so that then I can make adjustment accordingly so the Mindstream fits my needs perfectly.
Plusses so far are.
Takes 15 minutes to install
Appears to be well made and packaging is well done
Support is immediate and you get a real person. I even got an overnight email, from a real person,to warn me that my CA was way out of bounds. When I questioned it they offered a free ICP test to see who was right. After checking I found my doser had been accidentally disconnected. That email may have saved me a several thousands in coral losses.
You get an email any time parameters are outside boundaries that you set.
What I find most interesting so far is how much things fluctuate during the day. What may be in bounds at testing time, may not be at other times.

 

[User1]

Agreed on duplicate measurements but how many times have you reached out for test kits or portable tool to double- check what the controller has measured? Did you all of the sudden dump all of it and believed apex/profilux/name-your-favorite controller unconditionally?

Confirmation/Validation is key!

People are sending water for testing to confirm a lot of the stuff they already tested for. Did you see anybody asking ICP companies not to test ALK, CA, Ph, etc etc to make it cheaper? Me neither.



Mail in or DIY, add either option to the cost.



I understand, perhaps MS will offer different levels down the line.

Good points - maintenance is going to add to the cost for sure also.

With regards to controllers - it is a mixed bag which I believe you sort of alluded to. I own an Apex. I owned the original Neptune product that used X10 relays back in 2000. I switched to a Reef Angel in between. I honestly believe that is a better controller than any on the market due to the open source aspect and the libraries people have created. There are several things I've yet to do with the Apex than it did.

Again - good point. I don't have an answer other than what I had and what "my" best option was. Maybe not having the Apex it would be a different choice. Also to be honest - I am not sure what tests are critical. From a data point it is great to have more. I'll give you that.

 

[User1]

As a Mindstream owner and a natural born skeptic, I can say that I am more than impressed so far but as a former Apex gold owner, it is not for everyone. The exception is for someone that wants to have everything controlled automatically. I want to know what is going on so that then I can make adjustment accordingly so the Mindstream fits my needs perfectly.
Plusses so far are.
Takes 15 minutes to install
Appears to be well made and packaging is well done
Support is immediate and you get a real person. I even got an overnight email, from a real person,to warn me that my CA was way out of bounds. When I questioned it they offered a free ICP test to see who was right. After checking I found my doser had been accidentally disconnected. That email may have saved me a several thousands in coral losses.
You get an email any time parameters are outside boundaries that you set.
What I find most interesting so far is how much things fluctuate during the day. What may be in bounds at testing time, may not be at other times.

Good feedback.

 

[hart24601]

I am very wary of having dosing linked to any test system right now. Even good as my alkatronic was there was still the rare occasion where it it would be off. The alkatronic was a cool device as if the test varied from previous it would retest right away, but they all have a lot of moving parts.


Perhaps something like the MS will prove to be more consistent over time without having a snail or blockage over the intake/tubing issues with pumping/clogs/drift, or the frequency of the testing will moderate any errors that do occur, but right now to automate dosing from a pump system with probes or color detection that tests every few hours IMO isn’t going to be the basis for automated dosing. The only way I would ever consider dosing automation is something like the MS that has minimal parts and tests several times an hour. Of course it will have to been seen how accurate it is over time….

 

[Kyl]

Just a note to some, remember that many were told a few months ago that if they didn't like testing things they didn't care about testing for, that it's by design, to quit crying and go elsewhere. Don't now decide to die on that hill for one brand but not the other, considering both options here test things some would classify as superfluous, or more than desired / required.

The cost per month is what it is, you can't cherry pick one aspect of the whole shebang and expect to remain credible. All the bad mouthing of the Mindstream that went on, especially by some industry players, seems a lot of people should be quite a bit more humble in this hobby going forward.

 

[MnFish1]

I will take this one step farther... I want to see it in action for five years with some good, smart hobbyists to relay the pros, cons and nuance to us. Until then, every manufacturer has the best product for the cheapest cost and over 25+ years, nearly all of them end up sucking.

People on the cutting edge tend to end up bleeding. ...a few months can save a lot of scars. ...a year even more. ...a few years, nearly all.

In concept I agree with you - in reality what you're saying doesnt make sense. If every product had to be on the market for 'years' - before people would buy it - no one would buy it - unless I"m missing your point. PS - I just bought the Mindstream. The Apex system still has problems having been on the market for a long time - there are no guarantees in life - and there are no guarantees that a given system will work properly in one tank - and the same in another.

 

[ca1ore]

The other 'cost' to consider is the probability cost that either trident or mindstream will become an expensive brick if the company that sells and supports it goes out of business. I've no idea about the funding/commitment behind mindstream, but I would worry (which is why I don't plan to buy one). Neptune could go out of business also, of course, but that seems far less likely - in the short to medium term certainly. Although I don't use trident to control anything, I do use it to send alerts thus integration to my controller/fusion is a significant advantage. I would imagine most with the 2016 apex would feel the same way, thus the silly-long waiting list.

Also, if people are going to make credible comparison arguments, don't exaggerate the numbers. Trident is $600 not $700, and reagent costs look like they will settle in at about $15-20 per month with the minimum setting for test frequency. Whether that is 'worth' it is a different question.