Mindstream a cheaper/better alternative to Trident? What's the catch

[User1]

Just a note to some, remember that many were told a few months ago that if they didn't like testing things they didn't care about testing for, that it's by design, to quit crying and go elsewhere. Don't now decide to die on that hill for one brand but not the other, considering both options here test things some would classify as superfluous, or more than desired / required.

The cost per month is what it is, you can't cherry pick one aspect of the whole shebang and expect to remain credible. All the bad mouthing of the Mindstream that went on, especially by some industry players, seems a lot of people should be quite a bit more humble in this hobby going forward.

While not the same Neflix seems to be able to pull off options.

Seems like a pretty hard drawn line in the sand. Maybe they have no choice based on how they calculate their test and results. I don't know. But if that is there stance it is theirs to make.

I do question though who is right about what tests are mandatory or not. Maybe what I mean to ask as hobbyists do we even have a general agreement on what is important to test? This is really a honest question unrelated to any of the tools.

 

[MnFish1]

How so? There is no bashing.

If you have a controller you most likely have salinity, orp, temp, ph so that would be a duplicate. If you have a compatible controller then you are only out 600 bucks plus reagents. That is cheaper. Sorry you don't see it that way. Extra tests or not the hobbyist has to determine if those are more important than the others. Seems like common sense to me.

Let us now say you don't have a controller. $1,000 buy in and $230 a year for subscription.

While there is maintenance on the Trident it isn't just mail in. You can order a kit (TBD) and do it yourself.

There are no one vs either product other than what will work for the hobbyist. If one feels all 10 tests are important and doesn't have a controller duplicating some measurements I say go for it. On the other hand for me, as I noted above, unless they make options which lower the cost it wouldn't be a choice for me.

Not sure how that comes across as bashing when every time I provide comments to the MS product I'm always consistently saying cost, test options, and that I'm glad they are doing what they are. It helps us all in the long run. But maybe bad bed side manors in how I say stupidly over prices - I'll give you that.

Then again I'm not one to be a fan of subscriptions and I also believe I said that I'm biased. So if they could offer a disc that only tested A, B, and C - because I already have the rest, maybe it would work or sell more. I don't know.

Apologies if you believe I'm bashing it.

This makes sense - but - I would suggest - ORP is not reliable/necessary or really 'interpretable' - so its a 'waste' - O2, CO2 - which the Mindstream tests seems different - and more intuitive to me - as a barometer for problems. The Apex Salinity montior (currently being debated on another thread) - is inconsistent - and my hope is that this one will be more stable - better (will take time to know) - so you're getting 10 parameters - in reality (imo) 2 of which are duplicated by the Apex - pH and Temp.

The cost analysis is actually interesting - But - (for me personally) - If I add in the cost of the lost of 2 systems due to 'controller malfunction' - not user error - I have decided to just use my Apex as an expensive surge suppressor that I can shut things off easily when I need to (maintenance) - and the Mindstream for monitoring - that may be a mistake - I hope not.

 

[BZOFIQ]

In concept I agree with you - in reality what you're saying doesnt make sense. If every product had to be on the market for 'years' - before people would buy it - no one would buy it - unless I"m missing your point. PS - I just bought the Mindstream. The Apex system still has problems having been on the market for a long time - there are no guarantees in life - and there are no guarantees that a given system will work properly in one tank - and the same in another.

Something tells me that he didn't wait for 5 years worth of feedback on the Trident - LOL

 

[MnFish1]

While not the same Neflix seems to be able to pull off options.

Seems like a pretty hard drawn line in the sand. Maybe they have no choice based on how they calculate their test and results. I don't know. But if that is there stance it is theirs to make.

I do question though who is right about what tests are mandatory or not. Maybe what I mean to ask as hobbyists do we even have a general agreement on what is important to test? This is really a honest question unrelated to any of the tools.

Don't you think the real reason is that its easier to produce one product (less costly) than several? If you have a machine or a person that makes the 'disk' - seems like its much more cost effective for the company to just make it - not an 'ala carte' option. - Ala-carte tends to be more expensive not less expensive.

Maybe I dont get your point - but - for example - Of the 10 tests the Mindstream does - the 2 I don't care about are Potassium and Ammonia. (because I currently dont test for them) - and I'm not sure what I will do with them when I get them. That said - Lets say I wanted to order a mindstream without 'those tests ' ala carte - lets say it was $5 (about 10% less)/month - I would just pay the 39.95 - and monitor those parameters. In other words - I cant envision a world where subtracting 6 tests - lets say - would decrease the price / month by 60%.

 

[hart24601]

I do worry about MS going out of business and having a very expensive brick. Time will tell. One thing that makes me feel slightly better is when this was in kickstarter I thought no way. Never ever going to happen. Then it didn't get funded. Not going to happen. They refunded money and that was it. Heard whispers over the next few years but not a great deal.





However over the years they managed to pull it off. Perhaps that shouldn’t inspire my faith, but I am really impressed they have working units out there. I mean look at the cluster fork the vertex has been, when I look at that mess and MS it has given me enough faith to make the jump. Maybe it will come back to bite me, we will see.

 

[User1]

Don't you think the real reason is that its easier to produce one product (less costly) than several? If you have a machine or a person that makes the 'disk' - seems like its much more cost effective for the company to just make it - not an 'ala carte' option. - Ala-carte tends to be more expensive not less expensive.

Maybe I dont get your point - but - for example - Of the 10 tests the Mindstream does - the 2 I don't care about are Potassium and Ammonia. (because I currently dont test for them) - and I'm not sure what I will do with them when I get them. That said - Lets say I wanted to order a mindstream without 'those tests ' ala carte - lets say it was $5 (about 10% less)/month - I would just pay the 39.95 - and monitor those parameters. In other words - I cant envision a world where subtracting 6 tests - lets say - would decrease the price / month by 60%.

It probably is easier I'd wager. Maybe why they don't offer it. Maybe how the measurements are taken, then calculated, and then provide other results. I'm not sure.

Ala-carte can be more expensive as many a cord cutter are starting to learn first hand. Again, valid point. Probably why I asked what really is the right thing to test along with frequency.

You very well may have hit the nail on the head.

 

[User1]

I do worry about MS going out of business and having a very expensive brick. Time will tell. One thing that makes me feel slightly better is when this was in kickstarter I thought no way. Never ever going to happen. Then it didn't get funded. Not going to happen. They refunded money and that was it. Heard whispers over the next few years but not a great deal.





However over the years they managed to pull it off. Perhaps that shouldn’t inspire my faith, but I am really impressed they have working units out there. I mean look at the cluster fork the vertex has been, when I look at that mess and MS it has given me enough faith to make the jump. Maybe it will come back to bite me, we will see.

Interesting point. I know the a game developer did something similar. Kick starter, got about 3 million or so in initial funds, and started work. However, designing a game takes a lot of twists and turns which many thing it is simple hard choices are made and things start slower than expected. People get frustrated, and want their money back.

This designer will refund backers money to this day 2 to 3 years in. Maybe not related other than the point about refunds sort of reminded me of this.

 

[EmdeReef]

Both things are luxury and optional gear...

This is a bit like debating if buying a BMW or a Mercedes is cheaper / better.

 

[hart24601]

Both things are luxury and optional gear...

This is a bit like debating if buying a BMW or a Mercedes is cheaper / better.

After having alkatronic for a while I very nearly consider automated alk monitoring as needed, at least for me. 3 times seeing the alk drop alerted me something was wrong with my doser. Twice, yes twice, my fault I didn’t exit to the main screen after changes so it didn’t dose. One other time the tubing cracked. I caught those issues in hours, I don’t know when I would have noticed without alk monitoring. Would it have crashed my system? I doubt it…. But would it at the very least have stressed the acros – probably. I manually tested alk about once a week so idk when I would have noticed the changes. Now better more dedicated reefers might not consider that a need, but compared to other things I have bought in the hobby I can quantify the number of times alk monitoring has helped me out.

 

[EmdeReef]

After having alkatronic for a while I very nearly consider automated alk monitoring as needed, at least for me. 3 times seeing the alk drop alerted me something was wrong with my doser. Twice, yes twice, my fault I didn’t exit to the main screen after changes so it didn’t dose. One other time the tubing cracked. I caught those issues in hours, I don’t know when I would have noticed without alk monitoring. Would it have crashed my system? I doubt it…. But would it at the very least have stressed the acros – probably. I manually tested alk about once a week so idk when I would have noticed the changes. Now better more dedicated reefers might not consider that a need, but compared to other things I have bought in the hobby I can quantify the number of times alk monitoring has helped me out.

I agree with everything you said, I love my Alkatronic and have also ordered Mindstream. But still it’s luxury and optional...with relatively infrequent alk testing and well dialed in 2 part or calcium reactor you will be fine minus the “black swan events.”

Moreover, kind of hard to judge which one is better (assuming you can even compare the two) without the folks who own both chiming in...

 

[hart24601]

I agree with everything you said, I love my Alkatronic and have also ordered Mindstream. But still it’s luxury and optional...with relatively infrequent alk testing and well dialed in 2 part or calcium reactor you will be fine minus the “black swan events.”

Moreover, kind of hard to judge which one is better (assuming you can even compare the two) without the folks who own both chiming in...

I think we will have to agree to disagree here! I have had losses from alk overdose and lack of stability over the years as have my reefer friends. If someone never has lost an acro from alk issues then no doubt it's optional, but to someone who might have lost some large colonies due solely to alk swing it's sure not now that we have that technology!

Of course what is really 'needed' is debatable, plenty of tanks get by with no dosing and manual top offs, so I'm not talking about absolutes. Heck can run a reef jar with indirect sun and only an air bubbler so in that perspective everything over an air pump is a luxury but that's getting in the weeds a bit.

But you're totally right, we have no idea what setup will be "better" and that will probably vary on personal setups. It will be interesting to see and it's really exciting to see these testers pop up in the last few years. The cost and complexity will lend itself to more advanced reefers right now but hopefully the cost of all technology will drop and become more accessable to beginners (of stony corals) where they may provide those users with greater insight compared to some of us seasoned reefers that have had systems for decades.

 

[blitzkragz]

I have an order in for a Mindstream as well.

If rumors of it eventually adding no3 or po4 (or both) are true, game over. I don't really care how much extra it would cost, to have all of that on one disk would be amazing, especially for color blind people like me with no hanna checker available for no3.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with everything you said, I love my Alkatronic and have also ordered Mindstream. But still it’s luxury and optional...with relatively infrequent alk testing and well dialed in 2 part or calcium reactor you will be fine minus the “black swan events.”

Moreover, kind of hard to judge which one is better (assuming you can even compare the two) without the folks who own both chiming in...

I think one thing that will be interesting (whether you're using any kind of alk tester) - is whether it will be proven to be a necessity or not. Many people swear by the fact that when their alk is 'stable' their corals are more healthy - which to me translates into more resistant to disease, etc. etc. (I'm not sure its true though) - I also think for me - it will be a 'necessity' because - I hate testing - and often 'just don't do it'. This way - its done - I dont have to worry about it - etc etc. For those who love tinkering with spinner bars and titrations, and timers - it is certainly not a necessity.

But - I think the next couple of years will be interesting - and hopefully will answer the question

 

[EmdeReef]

I think one thing that will be interesting (whether you're using any kind of alk tester) - is whether it will be proven to be a necessity or not. Many people swear by the fact that when their alk is 'stable' their corals are more healthy - which to me translates into more resistant to disease, etc. etc. (I'm not sure its true though) - I also think for me - it will be a 'necessity' because - I hate testing - and often 'just don't do it'. This way - its done - I dont have to worry about it - etc etc. For those who love tinkering with spinner bars and titrations, and timers - it is certainly not a necessity.

But - I think the next couple of years will be interesting - and hopefully will answer the question

Agree I think corals are more resistant to pure alk swings than the conventional wisdom. I think probably

I think we will have to agree to disagree here! I have had losses from alk overdose and lack of stability over the years as have my reefer friends. If someone never has lost an acro from alk issues then no doubt it's optional, but to someone who might have lost some large colonies due solely to alk swing it's sure not now that we have that technology!

Of course what is really 'needed' is debatable, plenty of tanks get by with no dosing and manual top offs, so I'm not talking about absolutes. Heck can run a reef jar with indirect sun and only an air bubbler so in that perspective everything over an air pump is a luxury but that's getting in the weeds a bit.

But you're totally right, we have no idea what setup will be "better" and that will probably vary on personal setups. It will be interesting to see and it's really exciting to see these testers pop up in the last few years. The cost and complexity will lend itself to more advanced reefers right now but hopefully the cost of all technology will drop and become more accessable to beginners (of stony corals) where they may provide those users with greater insight compared to some of us seasoned reefers that have had systems for decades.

Not to be a jerk but this is a bit like a buddy of mine talking how since he’s started driving an x5M his lower back pain decreased...

Do you need alkalinity testing - absolutely yes, perhaps some folks need to test much more often but you can do it with a $15 Salifert kit...

If your tank is experiencing wide alkalinity swings then you have bigger issues than testing. In the majority cases of acro Problems there’s more than one cause to rtn or whatever else. The swimgs Of 0.5 dkh won’t cause issues, arguably even 1 wont be a problem. If your system is experiencing more than that then let’s be honest your problem Is caused by something else...

In sum, I think my comment about not needing any of these tools stands but they can absolutely help you prevent problems...everyone just needs to be honest to the degree they feel comfortable/knowledgeable about.

I’ve recently killed over $1500 worth of wish and worse my long time pets by doing something stupid. A Mindstream would’ve potentially helped but so would’ve common sense which I admittedly/clearly lacked...

 

[hart24601]

Agree I think corals are more resistant to pure alk swings than the conventional wisdom. I think probably


Not to be a jerk but this is a bit like a buddy of mine talking how since he’s started driving an x5M his lower back pain decreased...

Do you need alkalinity testing - absolutely yes, perhaps some folks need to test much more often but you can do it with a $15 Salifert kit...

If your tank is experiencing wide alkalinity swings then you have bigger issues than testing. In the majority cases of acro Problems there’s more than one cause to rtn or whatever else. The swimgs Of 0.5 dkh won’t cause issues, arguably even 1 wont be a problem. If your system is experiencing more than that then let’s be honest your problem Is caused by something else...

In sum, I think my comment about not needing any of these tools stands but they can absolutely help you prevent problems...everyone just needs to be honest to the degree they feel comfortable/knowledgeable about.

I’ve recently killed over $1500 worth of wish and worse my long time pets by doing something stupid. A Mindstream would’ve potentially helped but so would’ve common sense which I admittedly/clearly lacked...

Again agree to disagree.

I flat out gave 3 examples of how automated alk testing let me catch issues. Not hypotheticals, real issues that I would not have caught otherwise for several days if not longer. It's great you don't have those issues, but I did! And automated alk testing caught each one. Again I can't say it would have killed acros, but they would have been stressed for sure and I have paid up to a few hundred for some of these coral. I try to test once a week but don't always remember. Perhaps a year ago they might have died from those alk drops, we just don't know but in my opinion I would have lost at least one. If something helps to save a single coral that's needed to me. Others may view them as more disposable.

 

[EmdeReef]

Again agree to disagree.

I flat out gave 3 examples of how automated all testing let me catch issues. Not hypotheticals, real issues that I would not have caught otherwise for several days if not longer. It's great you don't have those issues, but I did! And automated alk testing caught each one. Again I can't say it would have killed acros, but they would have been stressed for sure and I have paid up to a few hundred for some of these coral. Perhaps a year ago they might have died from those all drops, we just don't know but in my opinion I would have lost at least one. If something helps to save a single coral that's needed to me. Others may view them as more disposable.

To put it in even simpler terms, just because you can afford it doesn’t mean it’s universally necessary. Your examples don’t really prove anything but perhaps that you wouldn’t have been as diligent testing manually

 

[hart24601]

To put it in even simpler terms, just because you can afford it doesn’t mean it’s universally necessary. Your examples don’t really prove anything but perhaps that you wouldn’t have been as diligent testing manually

Never said needed by all!

Needed by me.

I also maintained a great pico reef where I did no ato, no dosing just 100% w/c weekly. That system it wasn't needed. What various people need depends on them and their systems. It's not a universal truth. I'm not about to say no one needs ato systems because I didn't on that system.

 

[EmdeReef]

Never said needed by all!

Needed by me.

I also maintained a great pico reef where I did no ato, no dosing just 100% w/c weekly. That system it wasn't needed. What various people need depends on them and their systems. It's not a universal truth. I'm not about to say no one needs ato systems because I didn't on that system.

Big difference my friend. Same like someone saying I need a Ferrari (and I can afford it so why not).

if you can’t dial in your alk then maybe something to think about before keeping sps. 99% of stable reef tanks rarely if ever experience catastrophic alkalinity issues without some other cause than dosing pump or Ca reactor failure...(which lets be honest are pretty rare nowadays).

 

[hart24601]

Big difference my friend. Same like someone saying I need a Ferrari (and I can afford it so why not).

if you can’t dial in your alk then maybe something to think about before keeping sps. 99% of stable reef tanks rarely if ever experience catastrophic alkalinity issues without some other cause than dosing pump or Ca reactor failure...(which lets be honest are pretty rare nowadays).

Alright, I think my arguments stand for themselves at this point. Happy reefing!

 

[kyleThatGuy]

Am i missing something or is the reef bot better…it tests a lot of things and can be updated to do more in the future oh and you can set it to test anytime and however many times you want