Mindstream a cheaper/better alternative to Trident? What's the catch

[hart24601]

Am i missing something or is the reef bot better…it tests a lot of things and can be updated to do more in the future oh and you can set it to test anytime and however many times you want

I have thought about the reefbot or the mastertronic (not out yet) which looks to be similar. The thing that concerns me with these is what their benefit is too. They use existing tests. So you are limited by the accuracy and precision of those existing tests, and if the reefbot has any variation of its own that would futher degrade the accuracy of the base tests it uses. I am not sure if it's been an issue or not with them, although if Jonas (creator of alkatronic) thinks it can be done then it's probably viable as he is far more advanced than I.

 

[infinityends]

Well, the OP hasn't posted in the thread since creating it. But my $0.02

Nothing against midstream. I was watching it before the trident came out. Still think it is a worth while product with a place in the market, and had it come to market in advance of the trident. I can guarantee that I would own one.

I picked up a trident on launch and love it. If you are already running an Apex, having it all right there in fusion is great, as well as the ability to control dosing based on the trident's readings. It really seems like half of this thread has just turned into a another place people have decided to inexplicably just bash on Neptune and the Trident. I don't really feel the need to jump in on something that has been going on in various threads for over a year. I don't quite understand why some people hate on Neptune and the Trident the way they do. Its a great product, sorry that a company needs to also make some sort of a profit margin and can't give everything away for charity prices?

As far as the people talking about how the midstream monitors so many more things than trident. Not really, just CO2, Ammonia and Potassium, everything else is uber basic and monitored by the Apex out of the box. I don't see the need for Co2 on a reef, maybe I'm not thinking of something, but seems more useful on a planted freshwater tank, ammonia isn't all that much of a problem to test with a cheap API kiter something on the rare occasion you think you might need to (and seneye does it much cheaper if you think you need it monitored), Potassium is the best selling point over the trident.

Like I said, I have nothing against MS, and hope that the company sticks around. I would even happily buy a cut down version of it to monitor parameters that my Apex and Trident do not. I'm all for competition to if nothing else push Neptune to up their game and/or drop prices to compete. But the claim that MS is far superior is a little overkill. Realistically, they are most likely about equal, especially if comparing the manufacturer reported precision of the 2 products. Alk: Trident +-0.05 - MS +-.1 - Ca: Trident+-15ppm - MS+- 5ppm - Mg: Both +-15ppm. So realistically pretty much the same as far as how good the measurements are.

Also to correct something in the original post. Trident is not $40/month for reagents, its posted by Neptune as $40 for a 2 month supply, my experience has been more like $40/2.5 months of use.

Ended up jumping into the fray more than intended. Mostly just sick of all of the ripping on Neptune and Trident. I get it, some people don't like it or think it is worth it. Then don't buy one, just annoying to see every thread where it is mentioned turn into a jumble of people bashing a product they don't even own or have experience with.

 

[MnFish1]

Like I said, I have nothing against MS, and hope that the company sticks around. I would even happily buy a cut down version of it to monitor parameters that my Apex and Trident do not. I'm all for competition to if nothing else push Neptune to up their game and/or drop prices to compete. But the claim that MS is far superior is a little overkill. Realistically, they are most likely about equal, especially if comparing the manufacturer reported precision of the 2 products. Alk: Trident +-0.05 - MS +-.1 - Ca: Trident+-15ppm - MS+- 5ppm - Mg: Both +-15ppm. So realistically pretty much the same as far as how good the measurements are.

I agree with a lot of what you say - except the paragraph above - the MS is far superior to the Trident - not in the precision - which is what you mentioned - I would say they are equivalent (with Ca, Alk and Mg)- where I think MS is superior is:

1. No tubing, tubing changes, and Maintenance is expected to be much less often than Trident.
2. Measuring O2 - which is quite expensive on its own - and probably far more useful than measuring ORP ( which I have found extremely un-useful).
3. Measuring CO2 - which will be another useful indicator when pH is a problem.
4. No tubing, less need to worry about air bubbles
5. A better - hopefully more stable/accurate way of measuring salinity - without having to worry about constant fluctuations (see the other thread about apex salinity probs. and Josh's excellent article about trying to avoid them
6. A smaller footprint.
7. Does not require a controller to function.
8. The ability to measure K and ammonia - I'm not sure - except that it MIGHT show a problem before it becomes a problem.
9. There is room in the system to easily add other testing parameters to the disk.

There are some perceived disadvantages to the mindstream as well. I find the monthly disk at $34 - to be roughly equivalent to the trident reagents - (more convenient) - but the cost is an issue to some people.

Secondly - you cant 'control' your aquarium equipment with the results (yet).

I think if you look at the posts - people are bashing Mindstream for their delays just as much as Neptune/Apex.

 

[User1]

I agree with a lot of what you say - except the paragraph above - the MS is far superior to the Trident - not in the precision - which is what you mentioned - I would say they are equivalent (with Ca, Alk and Mg)- where I think MS is superior is:

1. No tubing, tubing changes, and Maintenance is expected to be much less often than Trident.
2. Measuring O2 - which is quite expensive on its own - and probably far more useful than measuring ORP ( which I have found extremely un-useful).
3. Measuring CO2 - which will be another useful indicator when pH is a problem.
4. No tubing, less need to worry about air bubbles
5. A better - hopefully more stable/accurate way of measuring salinity - without having to worry about constant fluctuations (see the other thread about apex salinity probs. and Josh's excellent article about trying to avoid them
6. A smaller footprint.
7. Does not require a controller to function.
8. The ability to measure K and ammonia - I'm not sure - except that it MIGHT show a problem before it becomes a problem.
9. There is room in the system to easily add other testing parameters to the disk.

There are some perceived disadvantages to the mindstream as well. I find the monthly disk at $34 - to be roughly equivalent to the trident reagents - (more convenient) - but the cost is an issue to some people.

Secondly - you cant 'control' your aquarium equipment with the results (yet).

I think if you look at the posts - people are bashing Mindstream for their delays just as much as Neptune/Apex.

Not sure I'd say superior. Different is more applicable but then maybe we are just talking semantics at this point.

Tubing and reagents isn't a bad thing if it is designed into the system.

Measuring O2 is expensive. How good is the MS at doing this when looking at other products?

I'm not sure I'd say a smaller foot print. It is pretty bulky.

No, no controller. But how many people have controllers of some sort already which leads to some items possibly being duplicated? I mean I was just passing through Melevsreef video yesterday as he was talking about MACNA and someone asked him which he was keeping MS or Trident and he said both. I'm sorry - that isn't practical for many hobbyist and makes no sense. Apex, MS, Trident, and several components overlap. Not knocking him just saying there is a thing called too much information and it becomes noise or a distraction.

Ammonia? Up to the end user to decide when they test. Personally speaking it isn't something I ever look at again once the tank is cycled. Interesting enough I picked up a Seneye a few months back and guess what its disc offers? Ammonia. Go figure.

Lastly - I'm not sure if there is room on the disc to add more. Maybe that is why they came up with what they did. What could fit, what mathematically could they calculate or deduce from these tests, and that is it. Trident is sort of stuck also right? I mean there is only room for 3 specific bottles...

Again not knocking it in anyway. I like the element/disc aspect. But superior is a strong word and in my opinion it isn't. It offers more and if that is what you are looking for then I think it is the right choice for those hobbyists. The Trident cannot do some of those tests so for me it is that black and white.

 

[User1]

I think if you look at the posts - people are bashing Mindstream for their delays just as much as Neptune/Apex.

Yup - delays for both products are making some unhappy customers for sure. See, they do have other things in common

 

[infinityends]

I agree with a lot of what you say - except the paragraph above - the MS is far superior to the Trident - not in the precision - which is what you mentioned - I would say they are equivalent (with Ca, Alk and Mg)- where I think MS is superior is:

1. No tubing, tubing changes, and Maintenance is expected to be much less often than Trident.
2. Measuring O2 - which is quite expensive on its own - and probably far more useful than measuring ORP ( which I have found extremely un-useful).
3. Measuring CO2 - which will be another useful indicator when pH is a problem.
4. No tubing, less need to worry about air bubbles
5. A better - hopefully more stable/accurate way of measuring salinity - without having to worry about constant fluctuations (see the other thread about apex salinity probs. and Josh's excellent article about trying to avoid them
6. A smaller footprint.
7. Does not require a controller to function.
8. The ability to measure K and ammonia - I'm not sure - except that it MIGHT show a problem before it becomes a problem.
9. There is room in the system to easily add other testing parameters to the disk.

There are some perceived disadvantages to the mindstream as well. I find the monthly disk at $34 - to be roughly equivalent to the trident reagents - (more convenient) - but the cost is an issue to some people.

1,4&6 - I will give you that the mindstream just sits in the tank is a definite advantage up front. Not that trident can't run into issues caused by similar things. But I worry how being actually in the water rather than using a small feed tube will impact the longevity of the MS. I have pumps that have just been covered in the small calcified worms after a stretch in the sump. But obviously a tube can clog on the trident.

2 - I'm sure there are benefits to watching O2, since it isn't something we've generally had the ability to monitor before I'm not sure what. But more data is always better than less. Off the top of my head though, it would be most useful knowing during a power outage (if you keep the MS running on backup) to be aware of how the tank is doing.

3 - Again, I'm sure CO2 is useful to know, esp using something like a calcium reactor. But I still think this would be much more beneficial on a planted freshwater tank where CO2 is critical to plant growth. But being aware of excessive in a reef, is still useful.

5 - I guess I have no opinion, I haven't looked into the difference in how MS monitors salinity. But I am aware of issues with conductivity probes.

Cant really argue on 7,8,9. Personally, I don't mind that the trident requires an apex, because I wouldn't want to run a reef without a controller at this point. However, having the option for those who do not want to invest in a controller is completely understandable. As mentioned in my last post. I would love to see MS put out an MS-Mini or MS-Lite that is focused on supplemental monitoring or has some sort of Ala-Carte option where you select the handful of parameters you want to monitor with a smaller maximum number of parameters or something like that. Of course they need to focus on the main product. But a lower cost version and the ability to pick and choose what you test would be really useful.

 

[MnFish1]

1,4&6 - I will give you that the mindstream just sits in the tank is a definite advantage up front. Not that trident can't run into issues caused by similar things. But I worry how being actually in the water rather than using a small feed tube will impact the longevity of the MS. I have pumps that have just been covered in the small calcified worms after a stretch in the sump. But obviously a tube can clog on the trident.

2 - I'm sure there are benefits to watching O2, since it isn't something we've generally had the ability to monitor before I'm not sure what. But more data is always better than less. Off the top of my head though, it would be most useful knowing during a power outage (if you keep the MS running on backup) to be aware of how the tank is doing.

3 - Again, I'm sure CO2 is useful to know, esp using something like a calcium reactor. But I still think this would be much more beneficial on a planted freshwater tank where CO2 is critical to plant growth. But being aware of excessive in a reef, is still useful.

5 - I guess I have no opinion, I haven't looked into the difference in how MS monitors salinity. But I am aware of issues with conductivity probes.

Cant really argue on 7,8,9. Personally, I don't mind that the trident requires an apex, because I wouldn't want to run a reef without a controller at this point. However, having the option for those who do not want to invest in a controller is completely understandable. As mentioned in my last post. I would love to see MS put out an MS-Mini or MS-Lite that is focused on supplemental monitoring or has some sort of Ala-Carte option where you select the handful of parameters you want to monitor with a smaller maximum number of parameters or something like that. Of course they need to focus on the main product. But a lower cost version and the ability to pick and choose what you test would be really useful.

hopefully it works

 

[leepink23]

Well, the OP hasn't posted in the thread since creating it. But my $0.02

Nothing against midstream. I was watching it before the trident came out. Still think it is a worth while product with a place in the market, and had it come to market in advance of the trident. I can guarantee that I would own one.

I picked up a trident on launch and love it. If you are already running an Apex, having it all right there in fusion is great, as well as the ability to control dosing based on the trident's readings. It really seems like half of this thread has just turned into a another place people have decided to inexplicably just bash on Neptune and the Trident. I don't really feel the need to jump in on something that has been going on in various threads for over a year. I don't quite understand why some people hate on Neptune and the Trident the way they do. Its a great product, sorry that a company needs to also make some sort of a profit margin and can't give everything away for charity prices?

As far as the people talking about how the midstream monitors so many more things than trident. Not really, just CO2, Ammonia and Potassium, everything else is uber basic and monitored by the Apex out of the box. I don't see the need for Co2 on a reef, maybe I'm not thinking of something, but seems more useful on a planted freshwater tank, ammonia isn't all that much of a problem to test with a cheap API kiter something on the rare occasion you think you might need to (and seneye does it much cheaper if you think you need it monitored), Potassium is the best selling point over the trident.

Like I said, I have nothing against MS, and hope that the company sticks around. I would even happily buy a cut down version of it to monitor parameters that my Apex and Trident do not. I'm all for competition to if nothing else push Neptune to up their game and/or drop prices to compete. But the claim that MS is far superior is a little overkill. Realistically, they are most likely about equal, especially if comparing the manufacturer reported precision of the 2 products. Alk: Trident +-0.05 - MS +-.1 - Ca: Trident+-15ppm - MS+- 5ppm - Mg: Both +-15ppm. So realistically pretty much the same as far as how good the measurements are.

Also to correct something in the original post. Trident is not $40/month for reagents, its posted by Neptune as $40 for a 2 month supply, my experience has been more like $40/2.5 months of use.

Ended up jumping into the fray more than intended. Mostly just sick of all of the ripping on Neptune and Trident. I get it, some people don't like it or think it is worth it. Then don't buy one, just annoying to see every thread where it is mentioned turn into a jumble of people bashing a product they don't even own or have experience with.

Now Neptune has $99 for a 6 month supply!

 

[MnFish1]

Now Neptune has $99 for a 6 month supply!

Hmmmm - thats the death of Mindstream - until they match it -maybe - idk - idc.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Hmmmm - thats the death of Mindstream - until they match it -maybe - idk - idc.

$300 vs $420. $120 difference isn’t that bad.

 

[rushbattle]

Mostly just sick of all of the ripping on Neptune and Trident. I get it, some people don't like it or think it is worth it. Then don't buy one, just annoying to see every thread where it is mentioned turn into a jumble of people bashing a product they don't even own or have experience with.

I feel the same, and about Mindstream just the same. It’s inevitable that people will want to spend their time tearing down other’s efforts, but it’s lame. Whatever suits your situation is what you should use.

I personally really like the Mindstream because I find all of the measurements and the frequency of measurements incredibly useful. My background is in aquaculture, so I’m familiar with seawater parameters and can make use of all of them as long as the measurement can be trusted.

I find the Trident compelling for the same reasons, and potentially some advantages in reliability and definitely much less expensive to run.

 

[ca1ore]

$300 vs $420. $120 difference isn’t that bad.

What are those numbers?

 

[ca1ore]

BTW, I find it mostly pointless to try to compare two things that have essentially just come onto the market. Lots of useful insights to be had once the initial euphoria ('It's the best thing ever ….. until it sucks') passes. 6 months minimum, a year better.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

BTW, I find it mostly pointless to try to compare two things that have essentially just come onto the market. Lots of useful insights to be had once the initial euphoria ('It's the best thing ever ….. until it sucks') passes. 6 months minimum, a year better.

Yearly cost comparison of running the two controllers at the best value for reagents and discs.

 

[MnFish1]

Yearly cost comparison of running the two controllers at the best value for reagents and discs.

except - 1. Both are not 'controllers'.
2. One measures 10 things - the other 3 (or if you include apex - 9)

 

[Squidmotron]

Does the Trident require calibration?

 

[ca1ore]

Yearly cost comparison of running the two controllers at the best value for reagents and discs.

Ok, that’s what I thought. Two times $99 is actually only $200 for T though LOL. Some folks appear to get more than two months out of a reagent set, others (like me) somewhat less.

 

[vangvace]

I mean I was just passing through Melevsreef video yesterday as he was talking about MACNA and someone asked him which he was keeping MS or Trident and he said both. I'm sorry - that isn't practical for many hobbyist and makes no sense. Apex, MS, Trident, and several components overlap. Not knocking him just saying there is a thing called too much information and it becomes noise or a distraction.

Ammonia? Up to the end user to decide when they test. Personally speaking it isn't something I ever look at again once the tank is cycled. Interesting enough I picked up a Seneye a few months back and guess what its disc offers? Ammonia. Go figure.

For Ammonia, I think it will be interesting to see what "established tank" monitoring may show and if it will change the hobby in the future as more data is collected.

For Melev, it makes sense from a couple standpoints for him as a youtuber of the hobby and being able to compare products over time at a lower cost for said products. It comes with a heafty responsibility though.

To be honest, I wish I had the space and McBucks to run multiple systems on a long term comparison of various products.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Ok, that’s what I thought. Two times $99 is actually only $200 for T though LOL. Some folks appear to get more than two months out of a reagent set, others (like me) somewhat less.

Aren’t you forgetting something there bud?!

 

[MnFish1]

Ok, that’s what I thought. Two times $99 is actually only $200 for T though LOL. Some folks appear to get more than two months out of a reagent set, others (like me) somewhat less.

Except that no one can get those - adn My guess is that as Mindstream becaome more maintream - the costs will also come down for it.