Noticing a alarming trend

[rayn]

While I spend a a majority of my time here at R2R, there are other forums I frequent. I also am a member of numerous types of salt water groups on facebook.

I have noticed a trend growing among new reefers that goes completely against this hobby.

Quick cycling

What is the key any old salt will tell you in this hobby? Patience. Then some will turn around and suggest _______ will cycle your tank in three days blah blah blah. How do we teach or show patience when we can't even talk it in the beginning cycle phase? What phase is most important for the well being of our fish/corals?

Rant over(for now)

 

[brandon429]

we cannot hold it back, people want quick things digitally and biologically as well, and there's science behind it too see below


of course we have the right to remind them that taking time also lets your learn and control physicalities of the tank, its not all about filtration establishment. But for sure, there's no going back not ever, cycles will get shorter not longer 100% for sure. its ok too, as long as they follow testing requirements for ammonia digestion. there are even times like tank repairs or leaks or moves that legitimately call for a total skip cycle, its not bad at all. Going blindly into things sure is, agreed. I for one am totally for controlling a cycle to any degree wanted. It is absolutely fully not required to cycle live rocks cured at my LFS, special procedures are in place for this. the benefit to me of bringing home years old live rock is that my tank is years old on day 1. the physical controls were already in place/. If I was dealing with dry substrates, I would cycle and prove.


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/8/review

my take is to never recommend quick stocking of fish, that's for sure. I think adding many things at once is poor practice, but not pushing the rules using specific testing and speed-up tricks. perhaps people see quick filter establishment as a go ahead for mandarins

the TV show tanked features the massive demand for rapid cycling of aquaria.


****in agreement w Rayn about this aspect of rushing: using any form of speed cycling approach that fore goes ammonia oxidation testing is wrong, it's a guess system that exposes usually wild caught life to possible death** I'm not for the speed cycles where you input X and then add all the life to a dry system. If they want to input X additive, then prove the system can repeatedly reduce 3 ppm free ammonia down to zero in 24 hours (multiple days proof) then go to town if you need it this fast. I can see the live rock cured speed thing isn't the heart of the issue, it is the cold dry starts without any verifications that are concerning, agreed.

 

[Pete polyp]

I will agree that if the live rock is fully cured then it will at the least shorten the cycle in your tank. The cycle part has already been established by the rock already being cured. This leads to people thinking a cycle is unnecessary because they weren't the ones who actually cycled. A cycle is going to take place one way or another. Either before you buy that established live rock or in your possession with uncured live rock and dry base rock.

 

[brandon429]

but I was meaning we set up tanks in one day with no loss, aka no cycle. its not to be rogue, its to meet demands and deliver on them. a huge industry exists around controlling the ammonia molecule so that life can be xferred, quick set etc. Lots of times people are including food web establishment in the term 'cycle' and that adds to various takes on the matter. for me, I only consider a cycle as the time needed to start a reef tank and deal with waste, all else beyond that to me is maturation not cycle. just my take


the reason I do live rock transfers without a cycle is merely for instant gratification nothing more.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

I have been doing the saltwater thing (reef and fowlr) for 30+ years. I absolutely agree that patience is key in the big picture, but I also have no problem with using something like Dr Tims to speed up a cycle. I've used it on my more recent tanks and it works. I don't see a down side, but I'm not knocking the "slow, rotting shrimp" method either. The end result is the same...you have beneficial bacteria. I still stock my tanks slowly and QT most fish. I take it slow with fish, but don't see a need with bacteria.

 

[Pete polyp]

but I was meaning we set up tanks in one day with no loss, aka no cycle. its not to be rogue, its to meet demands and deliver on them. a huge industry exists around controlling the ammonia molecule so that life can be xferred, quick set etc. Lots of times people are including food web establishment in the term 'cycle' and that adds to various takes on the matter. for me, I only consider a cycle as the time needed to start a reef tank and deal with waste, all else beyond that to me is maturation not cycle. just my take


the reason I do live rock transfers without a cycle is merely for instant gratification nothing more.

I use a very similar method. I will purchase cured/mostly cured live rock for my systems and stock when it's not showing ammonia while ghost feeding. The live rock transfer is a way that you can instantly start stocking and have no negative effects. I think when an inexperienced hobbyists sees this they think it can be accomplished without going through the proper procedure though.

 

[rayn]

Dang, I must be old school. I still plan on buying a shrimp and letting it rot away. This gives me time to plan out corals and fish. Make sure everything is up to par before diving into the deep end.

I'm not saying cured live rock doesn't help or speed up the cycle, Dr Tims will help speed the cycle. There are other ways to speed the cycle. What I noticed already with the responses is the guys here know what they are doing and understand the process. Heck I will take a rock out of one tank to setup the next, especially a QT tank. But I don't see the need to rush, say a 120, through the cycle. Give it time to set up and be ready for the inhabitants.

 

[TaylorPilot]

I used live sand, and bacteria in a bottle for this last setup. I was feeding a 1/2 cube of PE Mysis every other day for two weeks and never saw an Ammonia or Nitrite come off 0. After the water lost the initial bacteria bloom (milky color), and diatoms starting growing on the glass and sand, I figured it was ready to go. I still test the Nitrite once a week or so, and in the 9 weeks it has been setup, they have always been clear.

Now I will saying something I see related to this subject is how fast everyone adds cleanup crews. It is amazing that people will cycle a tank, then dump 10-20 snails or shrimp in a tank with the sand/rock as white and clean as hospital sheets, and expect them not to starve. I have always thought that a clean up crew should be one of the last things you add, once the tank is well established and gunk growing on the rock and sand. Honestly, I've never been a fan of snails or hermit crabs to begin with. But that is only an opinion.

 

[Triggreef]

Nothing wrong with speeding a cycle. There are so many ways to do things. just because you don't agree with how others do it doesn't make them wrong. I cycled my kids 125 a couple years ago completely in 10 days to the point of bringing everything back down to zero and no3 to close to zero. Full cycle, no ammonia spike after initial (which was like day 3 or 4) after adding several fish.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I will admit, I have used rock from my large system that has sat in sump to start new tanks. I will still let them go for a couple weeks and such, but I do not let the long cycle happen on future set ups.

My 40, I did not want to use my rock from my main system because of pest nems. So, I actually used Prodibio method and it worked well. I did not add things in days, more like weeks, but still not the months of old days.

I think as long as we are getting the bacteria in the system to balance out, we are fine. Whether it comes naturally or from a bottle, it is still the beneficial bacteria.

However, one important detail, you still need to test to make sure your cycle is complete. No matter the method. Just saying I used this and should be fine, is not okay. Test your ammonia with the 24 hr ammonia addition method and you are good to go.

 

[rayn]

I'm not against speeding the cycle, per say, as long as one understands the process. But when a noob comes on and we send them straight to Dr Tim or similar and tell them they can cycle and start stocking in 10 days, doesn't teach them anything.

There is something to be said for being able to watch your tank grow and mature...even at the beginning.

 

[AcroNem]

I have noticed this as well, but here's my take so bear with me. I believe there's a difference between a new hobbyist or a wealthy but know-nothing person wanting a marine tank and wanting it NOW, and a seasoned aquarist that knows the boundaries yet tries to shorten the cycle a bit. One side is dangerous and can lead to plenty going wrong, while the other can almost happen naturally after you've done this for a while. My flat was cycled in roughly 10 days and I was seriously confused after adding cuc and saw zero spike in anything. Strange, but a short cycle can be done safely, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as we can monitor everything to ensure that it actually is established enough to start handling life. In my opinion that's where the problem can arise, whether we are careless or responsible about it.

 

[davidc]

Is extreme quick cycling worth the other issues that are popping up as a result. Just take a quick count of the daily threads of milky,white slime etc. ect, water issues going on. I'm talking as the OP stated,new reefer's.
I also see recomendations being given of pushing ammonia to 3,4 even 5 ppm to start a cycle when it is just not needed. That just creates situations of building way more bacteria than the tank needs and the result is bacteria die off and the resulting issues.......but they sell a bottle to fix that too.lol
A natural cycle only takes a little over three weeks typically, but how long are some of these tanks dealing with bacterial issues beyond that? Quite a large number.
I think Patience should be the first tool put in a beginning reefer's toolbox. We would have a lot less people leave this hobby.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good bottles on the shelf for various issues, but most of the time, patience and letting nature work is the best thing you can do.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I do think new reef keepers need to understand the science and "uhg" chemistry too. As long as all that is understood, things should be fine. I agree just wanting a reef and doing what a bottle says is not good practice.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Dang, I must be old school. I still plan on buying a shrimp and letting it rot away.

Dude, I'm with you. I still "shrimp it". There's a big difference in cycled and CYCLED. When I'm done, my tank can support an elephant. I saw someone on the forums "cycle" their tank with a product, added a fish when it was done and then continued to cycle the tank with their new first fish....... there was an ammonia spike after it was added. So, even though it "looked" cycled on the test strips, it wasn't cycled enough to support life.

Two years ago I used every single one of the liquid bacteria. No lie, all of them at the same time (different tanks)....... I went back to shrimp.

 

[melev]

I agree with rayn. I see this trend as well as similar mentalities and simply shake my head. I don't know if other hobbies run into the same concerns, but I just can't imagine seeing:

Q: "I just bought this piece of land. How quickly can I get a house built here?"
A: "Got a Home Depot nearby?"
A: "Dude, get yourself a hammer and circular saw at Harbor Freight! You've got this."
A: "Who needs sleep? Homes can be built in a day with enough help."
A: "You can get a prebuilt shed delivered, then upgrade later."
A: "Ever heard of a mobile home? smh!"
Q: "I meant a real home, you know with a pool and a nice landscaping."
A: "Hire a contractor, he'll get you on track. There's lots to consider before you start building."

The examples of healthy tanks posted on R2R should help others realize the time and effort involved in setting up a beautiful biotope. The more you document your reef, the better. Lurkers learn that way.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I noticed this first starting just as I was moving to California in 2004. I remember thinking reefing was so much different here than it was in Texas. I guess it hit Cali before the Lone Star. I started calling tanks "disposable tanks". They went up super fast, was stocked with $$$$$$$ of elite frags, crashed or had nuisance algae/pests type issue, got tore down and another went up. How long have the "newer" bacteria products been around now. Not the ones that have always been around, as there was some stuff over 20 years ago when I started. Was it around 2004 or was it later?

 

[shoelaceike]

Do you still ride a horse to get around or drive a car? If the instant cycle indeed works (don't know) why take the long way?

I personally have never cycled a tank but I always have used live rock.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Dang, I must be old school. I still plan on buying a shrimp and letting it rot away. This gives me time to plan out corals and fish. Make sure everything is up to par before diving into the deep end.

I'm not saying cured live rock doesn't help or speed up the cycle, Dr Tims will help speed the cycle. There are other ways to speed the cycle. What I noticed already with the responses is the guys here know what they are doing and understand the process. Heck I will take a rock out of one tank to setup the next, especially a QT tank. But I don't see the need to rush, say a 120, through the cycle. Give it time to set up and be ready for the inhabitants.

I agree! In my own tanks, I like the idea of moving slow on adding stuff. In my last build, I moved slow, and in the next one, I'm actually planning to do things in planned out and calculated phases...LOL I think when I was new to reefing, moving quick was a big deal to me, but since I've been in a while, I have learned that most decisions--especially when first setting things up--create patterns that will affect the trajectory of the reef for a long time (sometimes the full life of the reef), so I value the luxury of moving slow on the setup of the reef. I think it might also be another symptom of my own minor OCD tendencies...

 

[Russ265]

/raises hand.

i buy bacteria in a bottle with dead rock. why should i wait to add fish? i dump over $1000-10,000 for a setup and you state i gotta wait?

i say "nay nay"

also... a bacteria cycle is only one part of it dear sir.

your tank isnt "truly" cycled until after a year imo. thats why ive been bare bones with my corals until recently. (just something to look at)

i think experienced aquarists know that the first few months are going to be the most trying on a new tank. that bacteria in a bottle or LR cycling is just the tip of the iceburg, not the end of the journey.