Noticing a alarming trend

[rayn]

Need a face palm smily.

Not saying that at all, once tank is cycled they are experienced. Some experience comes FROM the tank cycle. Learn how things work. How the nitrifrication process works. Not just add a bottle and good to go.

It's the keeping with it that is a result. Trying to quick cycle, and the resulting Rush through things discourages people and they get out. It's the whole instant gratification bit all over again.

As far as learning, I don't think there is a person here, besides maybe PaulB, who doesn't learn something almost daily. He has his supermodels to take care of that for him. I am in no way a expert in any way. I have had successes and failures just as anyone else has.

 

[Russ265]

The topic isn't whether or not you seed your tank.

what is quick cycling then?

not seeding a tank?

 

[Russ265]

Need a face palm smily.

Not saying that at all, once tank is cycled they are experienced. Some experience comes FROM the tank cycle. Learn how things work. How the nitrifrication process works. Not just add a bottle and good to go.

It's the keeping with it that is a result. Trying to quick cycle, and the resulting Rush through things discourages people and they get out. It's the whole instant gratification bit all over again.

As far as learning, I don't think there is a person here, besides maybe PaulB, who doesn't learn something almost daily. He has his supermodels to take care of that for him. I am in no way a expert in any way. I have had successes and failures just as anyone else has.

ill be honest. if you want my ammonia and nitrite test kits. ill ship them to you.

they are only valid the first few weeks. and maybe a crash/death.

you are focusing on a VERY small piece of reefing. not even reefing.

btw. if you fill your entire tank with LR (minus bacteria load die off) you are instantly cycled.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Doug, you could spend all day...... go buff your acrylic.

 

[rayn]

ill be honest. if you want my ammonia and nitrite test kits. ill ship them to you.

they are only valid the first few weeks. and maybe a crash/death.

you are focusing on a VERY small piece of reefing. not even reefing.

btw. if you fill your entire tank with LR (minus bacteria load die off) you are instantly cycled.

I am focusing on the building block of the tank. The foundation of every reefers dream to come with that fully stocked beautiful tank.

 

[Tegridy Reef]

Scares the crap out of me I got to cycle a tank and ship stuff to me and I'm so nervous that the tank won't b ready

 

[Russ265]

a few years back. i dj'd downtown atlanta.

always got some great gigs for a few extra bucks.
there was always that one audiophile that stated all djs need to use vinyl. its "warmer". same can be said for tube amplifiers. the ol stevie ray vaughn amp was strong. 60s stratocaster and such.

problem is they dont make turn tables anymore. discontinued the 1200s in 2008 iirc.
same with the vac tube amps.

times a change. this looks like an old man rant.

using LR is accelerating a cycle. undisputed.
whether a capful of bacteria in a bottle is used or the whole dose doesnt change a thing.

you introduced the same stuff. just in a different form factor.

anyway ill leave it at that.
my questions were more to shine a light on this specific rant.

 

[gln826]

It is an old man rant...men were steel, ships were wood junk.

You've inspired a lurker to comment, kudos.

You seem to have forgotten about the days when you were new to this. It's a hobby, enjoy it. Don't get so jammed up about other peoples approaches.

 

[runzwithscissors]

Dude, I'm with you. I still "shrimp it". There's a big difference in cycled and CYCLED. When I'm done, my tank can support an elephant. I saw someone on the forums "cycle" their tank with a product, added a fish when it was done and then continued to cycle the tank with their new first fish....... there was an ammonia spike after it was added. So, even though it "looked" cycled on the test strips, it wasn't cycled enough to support life.

Two years ago I used every single one of the liquid bacteria. No lie, all of them at the same time (different tanks)....... I went back to shrimp.

+1. Too many new reefers will assume they can stock with everything. Throwing in a mandarin or pipefish when they used dry rock and a bottle to cycle.

 

[rayn]

It is an old man rant...men were steel, ships were wood junk.

You've inspired a lurker to comment, kudos.

You seem to have forgotten about the days when you were new to this. It's a hobby, enjoy it. Don't get so jammed up about other peoples approaches.

Thanks for the comment!

Not really an old man rant at all, but a concerned reefer rant. I will help anyone any way I can. If I don't post in a "help" thread it's cause either my thoughts were already given or I don't have a answer to the problem. The days when I started aren't that long ago really, but so many new things have come since then. Nobody talked about bacteria in a bottle when I started, it was either shrimp cycle or a fish. I can't/don't/won't condone a fish cycle. Nature has cycled everything and knows best. We try to speed that process up and we get thumped on the head by nature...every time. It may not come right away, but she rears her mighty power at some point.

 

[mcarroll]

People have conflated cycling live rock with cycling a bacterial filter bed. That's one small issue in the conversation.

The two are related, but not the same.

Cycling of live rock basically doesn't happen much anymore.

All of the live rock I have been in the position to receive in the last several years has come in exceptionally clean. After at most a week or two in the rock vat - sometimes soon after unpacking - it's ready to go directly into a functioning reef or even start a new reef with no ammonia spike.

If you get this kind of rock, you don't need to do anything else to have a functioning biological filter.

However, if you need to create a biological filter on a sterile medium like bagged dry sand or dry rock, that is a whole other endeavor and arguably not even similar to using live rock.

You can accomplish a functioning biological filter in that scenario by simply running the filters in the tank for a few weeks, up to a month.

The bacteria is in question are omnipresent in the environment, and will multiply to the extent you need in the tank all by themselves. It is a geometric expansion so they just need to get past the hump in their growth curve.

Bacterial additives will speed this process along somewhat.

Adding dead meat items to the tank seems silly to me. Simply stock the tank slowly. What's the problem with that?

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Adding dead meat items to the tank seems silly to me. Simply stock the tank slowly. What's the problem with that?

Stocking slowly would seem like a simple answer, but what if your fish equals multiples of another. My frondosa equals a few anthias and a dozen damsels. The bioload of my orange spotted filefish could have equaled 2 volitans, by the time I got it fed. To prepare a tank for a fish, I put enough dead meat in there to equal feedings. Then before I throw a bioload heavy fish in a tank, I'm throwing in a cheap and ever present (in my freezer) item to test out the waters first. If the tank will be fed a table shrimp in a feeding, I will test the tank with a table shrimp to see if there's a jump. If there is, it's back to the preparing stage.

 

[saltyhog]

Why put dead meat in to rot when you can accomplish the same thing with bottled ammonia....without the smell and nastiness. You can also dose to make the starting ammonia level exactly what you want it to be.

I periodically put some ammonia in my cycled QT to 1. feed the bacterial filter and 2. to affirm it's still functional. If I dose to an ammonia level of 3-4 and it's gone inside 24 hours I feel confident the filter is adequately functioning.

 

[mcarroll]

Stocking slowly would seem like a simple answer, but what if your fish equals multiples of another. My frondosa equals a few anthias and a dozen damsels. The bioload of my orange spotted filefish could have equaled 2 volitans, by the time I got it fed. To prepare a tank for a fish, I put enough dead meat in there to equal feedings. Then before I throw a bioload heavy fish in a tank, I'm throwing in a cheap and ever present (in my freezer) item to test out the waters first. If the tank will be fed a table shrimp in a feeding, I will test the tank with a table shrimp to see if there's a jump. If there is, it's back to the preparing stage.

Yes, that is the process and concept as I've seen it described.

How was your experience with just stocking slowly?

 

[rayn]

I agree with fresh live rock setting the tank up quickly and possibly not having a cycle. That isn't my point. As mentioned I am not spending hundreds of dollars on rock that I can get to the same point with a little patience. There are others out there that won't or simply can't buy rock like that.

Bottled bacteria can speed it up, but that may be part of the problem.

Throwing dead meat starts the cycle. Just stocking slowly, on a new tank, isn't a smart option.

This is all about starting a cycle.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I'm not following, in light of my previous answer. Maybe rewording will help me express what I'm trying to say. One of my fish can equal the bioload of 6 anthias. If you wanted to stock your tank with 6 anthias, you could stock slowly and add one at a time, building up your biofilter over time. My fish, the equivalent of 6 anthias, does not have the luxury of going in over time.

If the fish is going into a tank with other fish, I increase the feed up for the established fish for awhile, allowing the tank to support the upcoming increase in bioload. I guess either way I'm using a "shrimp" to get my tank to support my needs. One in the tank or in their bellies!

 

[robert]

I've been keeping fish tanks for over 50 years - more than 40 for saltwater.

There is nothing wrong with a zero cycle approach - it actually easier in my opinion.

The trick is to start with no organic load - that means cured dead rock. Mix your water - and then add a stock of consumers. Consumers being photosynthetic corals, clams and anenomes - you pretty much can add as much as you like - can afford - and feel confortable with.

Stay away from the fish initially until get your flow and lighting right - a day or two - or whatever it takes.

Now you add in your producers - fish and other organisms which produce rather than consume wastes. Have a goal in mind and remember some creatures have requirements which will not make them suitable for suitable for a green tank -

The number of fish to add is based on the volume of consumers you've previously stocked. You want the waste consumers to out-consume the waste producers. Its that simple.

All of your photosynthetic consumers will preferentially utilize the ammonia produced by your fish shortcutting the need for a nitrifying base of bacteria. But you want to watch your ammonia anyway just as a precaution and to keep from getting ahead of yourself. Don't worry - even if you see a little ammonia - prime will take care of it and the nitrifyiing bacteeria will build in no matter what you do.

This approach has a couple of advantages - first the corals establish themselves as the primary consumers in the system - giving little space for algaes to step in. Corals and nems produce allelopath compounds which will inhibit algae growth even before the nutrients build to a sufficient level to support algaes.

You'll find you need much less space dedicated to benthic bacteria (much less rock) - as again your photosynthetic stock of corals clams and nems are the primary occupiers of these niches in the food chain.

We're all newbs in this hobby - its a kind of progression.
There are fresh newbs who know nothing and know they know nothing.
There are the zealot newbs who know nothing - but think they know everything.
And there are seasoned newbs - who though they knew everything only to realize they actually know nothing and are will to try something new.

 

[rayn]

@robert so you are saying we really don't need to cycle?! Water, salt, rock, add corals and hems to a new tank. Wait a few days and start adding fish? Just go slow so the uptake out weighs the output.

 

[robert]

Yes - thats pretty much what I'm saying...I can post a link to a video of someone doing just this - it breaks the rules - but it is pretty darned easy.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

@robert so you are saying we really don't need to cycle?! Water, salt, rock, add corals and hems to a new tank. Wait a few days and start adding fish? Just go slow so the uptake out weighs the output.

Yes Doug, it's the old practice of using fish to cycle your tank. I did it 20 years ago with my first tank, to be honest. Then someone told me what it does to the gills and I couldn't do it anymore. It also irritates the skin as evidenced by frequent shedding in lions and fish darting for whatever reason fish dart when irritated.