Noticing a alarming trend
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runzwithscissors
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Free? [emoji1]
Taservices
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I know it has been said many times already. If the method works, so be it. I only raise a fuss when these quick cycle methods convince newbies who are not familiar with what is happening and why that it becomes an issue.
If there was an extremely stable and safe 1-day cycle in a bottle I would be all over that for my business, but I would make dm sure that every single one of my clients understood what was happening, how it was happening, and why it has to happen.
If there was an extremely stable and safe 1-day cycle in a bottle I would be all over that for my business, but I would make dm sure that every single one of my clients understood what was happening, how it was happening, and why it has to happen.
Jwalker814
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I hear ur frustration but this is my $.02 from a newbie stand point. I bought a secondhand established systems and threw it up without knowing. No research or anything just dove right in. No issues. No spikes no loss of life.
Got heavier into hobby and decided it was time to start from scratch and I bought my daughter a 24g fluval m60 4 months before she was born so that I could start stocking it when she was born. And she could grow with the live stock. I planned to have a cycle of 4 months. I trusted my LFS being the new guy and him being a well respected LFS. Threw me to biospira, seeded life rock, seeded sand. Set it all up and went back to him 3 days later to get water for my 75g and advice as to what to start cycle as for shrimp - live bait or grocery dead. Again I was a newbie. 6 months into hobby.
He basically ******* at me telling me I did it wrong, GAVE me a chromis and 3 coral frags - unknown zoas, candy cane, and mushrooms. And said hurry home and throw this in, u need it ASAP. Your tank is ready for life.... I was dumb founded and did what he said as he was my best source of info as I wasn't fully understanding to most of the acronyms and lingo of the interwebz reef community.
Here are year later I went aND transfered my 75g to a new 210g expecting a cycle and nothing. 75g and 100 lbs of live rock came from my 75g and the sand was live with the tank.
Times and methods are changing so you can't always blame the newbies.
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rayn
Bluefin Believer
I blame the lfs for that. He told you wrong and shouldn't have let you do that to a fish period.
I was told the same when I started and wouldn't put fish in a uncycled tank. I don't blame you for doing it, as you did what you were told. But now you know better
I was told the same when I started and wouldn't put fish in a uncycled tank. I don't blame you for doing it, as you did what you were told. But now you know better
tbh.
most "newbs" purchase a tank, throw some livestock and water in, and wonder why their fish died a few days later. they have no concept of cycling or how to keep fish.
it isnt until they look online that they realize something called a "cycle" which can be explained with a simple picture.
id be far more upset over losing new livestock in a new setup than someone preventing losses of life with an instant cycle.
fortunately, even petco sells sand with packets of bacteria to seed inside.
some great info here.
most "newbs" purchase a tank, throw some livestock and water in, and wonder why their fish died a few days later. they have no concept of cycling or how to keep fish.
it isnt until they look online that they realize something called a "cycle" which can be explained with a simple picture.
id be far more upset over losing new livestock in a new setup than someone preventing losses of life with an instant cycle.
fortunately, even petco sells sand with packets of bacteria to seed inside.
some great info here.
Brian wea
Active Member
well as one of the I want it now noobs ill will add an opinion at this point as well.. I have been reefing now for oooo a month.. if not for people like me I wonder if the innovators would have made bac in a bottle or come up with ways to speed a cycle. I didn't have a clue a month ago what a cycle was.. but as with anything in life if you apply yourself to the best of your ability you will learn about the subject of your application. this is the information era, youtube and forums just like this have taught me a lot. I don't only ask the questions I am concerned with I read others struggles.. I love a good challenge and half the reason I started this hobby was to see if I could do it. I am misunderstanding the point of this thread? to bash the not knowing for speed cycling?
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rayn
Bluefin Believer
Point isn't to bash anyone, least of all a new reefer. I am just seeing a trend towards trying to quick cycle a tank from scratch.
This isn't any different then any other hobby.
Cars...you don't go racing without some sort of practice.
Horses...you don't jump in and race the Kentucky derby.
Running...you don't wake up one day and suddenly decide to run a marathon.
Noticed I used a race in everyone? Something you practice and train for? Something you don't jump into unprepared? Every instance one would train and set themselves up for the best possible outcome. Why not with our tanks? Why do we try to rush the building block of our tank?
It isn't a bash on older reefers either, but who suggests the bottled bacteria to the new reefer who doesn't know?
I'm not and never will say MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY, because it isn't and I don't know it all.
This isn't any different then any other hobby.
Cars...you don't go racing without some sort of practice.
Horses...you don't jump in and race the Kentucky derby.
Running...you don't wake up one day and suddenly decide to run a marathon.
Noticed I used a race in everyone? Something you practice and train for? Something you don't jump into unprepared? Every instance one would train and set themselves up for the best possible outcome. Why not with our tanks? Why do we try to rush the building block of our tank?
It isn't a bash on older reefers either, but who suggests the bottled bacteria to the new reefer who doesn't know?
I'm not and never will say MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY, because it isn't and I don't know it all.
Zane
Active Member
I've been in this hobby since the 90s, and have started many tanks without cycle. It's not a "quick" cycle, its no cycle. If you start with cured live rock, and new sand, there should be nothing dead, which is what causes cycles.
Brian wea
Active Member
I am glad my lfs sold me reef mature pro, and 20 lbs of live rock a month ago when I walked in and said... I don't have a clue how, but I know what I want.. it was the process that taught me.
I have a FOWLR tank that has been going great with no crashes. I never cycled it. I believe that if you want to have a reef tank with very nice corals or corals in general, or a big FOWLR tank, cycling is a must.
cb684
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I think most of us agree that patience is important in this hobby. If the newbie does not learn this during the cycling will either learn latter or learn that this hobby is not for him/her.
We probably also agree that a cycled tank does not mean that it is ready for any and all inhabitants. Some will need more stablished systems.
But I will have to disagree with the idea that a longer cycling is better than a short one. It may be, but not always. It depends on what type of NH3 handling and nutrient export the system will rely on. So if it will rely mostly on phototropic growth or autotrophic bacteria conversion of NH3 to NO3 than that will take a while. But if it is going to rely in heterotrophic bacteria that that calls for a more quicker start and adding fish faster. There are also in-between situations.
Although I understand how it works, I do not see the point (that is a personal opinion) of ghost feeding or adding shrimp and wait for those to be broken down to NH3 in the system. That is because the bacterial population needed to brake it down to NH3, and the one needed to use up that NH3 is completely different, and there is very little benefit IMO for the system in having a bloom of the first one. So IME adding NH3 or NH4, and a healthy bacterial population would be a better way to start if using dry rock.
Now if using dead live rock than that is a completely different situation, and adding more organics would not be necessary because the rock already have enough material that will decay.
Also, if the newbie can understand this post he/she would be good to go in terms of cycling. But I cannot say that I knew that before or right after I cycled my first tank.
We probably also agree that a cycled tank does not mean that it is ready for any and all inhabitants. Some will need more stablished systems.
But I will have to disagree with the idea that a longer cycling is better than a short one. It may be, but not always. It depends on what type of NH3 handling and nutrient export the system will rely on. So if it will rely mostly on phototropic growth or autotrophic bacteria conversion of NH3 to NO3 than that will take a while. But if it is going to rely in heterotrophic bacteria that that calls for a more quicker start and adding fish faster. There are also in-between situations.
Although I understand how it works, I do not see the point (that is a personal opinion) of ghost feeding or adding shrimp and wait for those to be broken down to NH3 in the system. That is because the bacterial population needed to brake it down to NH3, and the one needed to use up that NH3 is completely different, and there is very little benefit IMO for the system in having a bloom of the first one. So IME adding NH3 or NH4, and a healthy bacterial population would be a better way to start if using dry rock.
Now if using dead live rock than that is a completely different situation, and adding more organics would not be necessary because the rock already have enough material that will decay.
Also, if the newbie can understand this post he/she would be good to go in terms of cycling. But I cannot say that I knew that before or right after I cycled my first tank.
Mas Frags
New Member
I have played both hands in this there are products out there that have live bactiera in it along with the live rock and the biggest tank I tried this on was a 45 gal and seemed to work? I still like the old school way hurry up and wait there are to amny things that are right now items in this todays world its just everyone wants this to be one of them also.. Again i like the old way let the cycles cycle.
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rayn
Bluefin Believer
That is starting a tank with cured live rock and that is different then cycling a tank. I agree there should be nothing, or very little depending on transportation, dead.
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I can take dry rock put it in Brute trash cans with a power head and heater, add ammonia and have "live" rock (from the standpoint of biofiltration) in a few weeks. I can then add that to a new tank and safely add fish IMO. That essentially is what I understand Robert to be saying after reading all of his posts?
Adding enough "consumers" to process the ammonia without bacterial populations would seem difficult to me. How many 1" acro frags would it take to support 1 fish? How do you "guestimate" when you have enough consumers to support one or more of the fish you want to add?
I think we're defining cycling in different ways. When I create that biofilter from dry rock that IS the cycle. I just did it before the rock ever went in the tank. Cycling to me simply means creating the necessary bacterial populations to sustain the ammonia producing life I want to put in the tank. There are lots of ways to skin this cat and I don't think it matters as long as you don't sacrifice or injure critters to get there.
The process where the tank gets more stable and is able to support more sensitive creatures and more volume of creatures I would call maturation.
Adding enough "consumers" to process the ammonia without bacterial populations would seem difficult to me. How many 1" acro frags would it take to support 1 fish? How do you "guestimate" when you have enough consumers to support one or more of the fish you want to add?
I think we're defining cycling in different ways. When I create that biofilter from dry rock that IS the cycle. I just did it before the rock ever went in the tank. Cycling to me simply means creating the necessary bacterial populations to sustain the ammonia producing life I want to put in the tank. There are lots of ways to skin this cat and I don't think it matters as long as you don't sacrifice or injure critters to get there.
The process where the tank gets more stable and is able to support more sensitive creatures and more volume of creatures I would call maturation.
mcarroll
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The reefs you were referring to are not "ours", technically. They belong to the nations you listed.
The "abusing reefs" part is definitely ours.
The answer I was actually looking for is that close to 100% of the live rock you will find in any given store for sale is Pacific and I bet none of it arrives via air.
If people's first place to look was a book instead of online, I believe many bad trends in this hobby would be better.
many bad books too.
with that attitude. lets just make it so that only marine biologists can have reef aquariums.
its a hobby. not a profession. if it is your profession, great. to the rest of us, well i didnt take flight school to fly my drone. i still did it head first.
all the racing stuff above doesnt make sense either.
running. we ran when we were 3. we dont need a book about it.
cars. ive already passed exams on this. a book will probably not be as effective as me actually jumping in the car and practicing. otherwise we would all be dale earnhartes.
horses. (some knowledge is needed but my kids do pony rides for fun)
the difference is hobbying, and profession here. i have no interest in making my hobby a job. otherwise it would lose it's appeal.
this is some "grumpy old men" talk here
my .02
