Noticing a alarming trend

[saltyhog]

I purchased cultured live rock from a source in Florida (not sure if ok to say the dealer). It came shipped completely immersed in water and full of life. It left their tanks and was in my tank in less than 8 hours. I still added ammonia (actually twice just to be sure) to 3.0 and the tank converted it all in 24 hours. I still waited a couple of weeks before putting anything in the tank but I'm quite sure I could have put a single fish or even two in the 6 ' tank without any problem.

The key was alive "live" rock.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

/raises hand.

i buy bacteria in a bottle with dead rock. why should i wait to add fish? i dump over $1000-10,000 for a setup and you state i gotta wait?

i say "nay nay"

also... a bacteria cycle is only one part of it dear sir.

your tank isnt "truly" cycled until after a year imo. thats why ive been bare bones with my corals until recently. (just something to look at)

i think experienced aquarists know that the first few months are going to be the most trying on a new tank. that bacteria in a bottle or LR cycling is just the tip of the iceburg.

Agreed. Hence I plan to do things in phases and move slowly. The plan is to start by building up a HUGE pod population before adding any fish and planning the addition of new fish and corals out (both what to add and when) well before actually pulling the trigger. To each their own (I don't insist anyone do it my way), but I actually LIKE the slow process of getting things developing, and I think (which may be the source of many of my troubles) that by moving slower and planning more methodically, I will avoid mistakes I've made on other systems. Hoping for a more stable/mature system.

 

[Russ265]

Agreed. Hence I plan to do things in phases and move slowly. The plan is to start by building up a HUGE pod population before adding any fish and planning the addition of new fish and corals out (both what to add and when) well before actually pulling the trigger. To each their own (I don't insist anyone do it my way), but I actually LIKE the slow process of getting things developing, and I think (which may be the source of many of my troubles) that by moving slower and planning more methodically, I will avoid mistakes I've made on other systems. Hoping for a more stable/mature system.

slow is the path of least resistance.

you may find this funny too.../ i bought 5 gallons of pods my first month. lol

man i am awful.

didnt skip the uglies, cyano, blooms, dinos, and equipment failures though

 

[shoelaceike]

/raises hand.

i buy bacteria in a bottle with dead rock. why should i wait to add fish? i dump over $1000-10,000 for a setup and you state i gotta wait?

i say "nay nay"

also... a bacteria cycle is only one part of it dear sir.

your tank isnt "truly" cycled until after a year imo. thats why ive been bare bones with my corals until recently. (just something to look at)

i think experienced aquarists know that the first few months are going to be the most trying on a new tank. that bacteria in a bottle or LR cycling is just the tip of the iceburg, not the end of the journey.

I actually agree....I have always used live rock that had been in other reefers tanks for years.....if its transported the same way coral or fish are there shouldn't be any die off and you have a ton of live bacteria/organisms

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

slow is the path of least resistance.

you may find this funny too.../ i bought 5 gallons of pods my first month. lol

man i am awful.

didnt skip the uglies, cyano, blooms, dinos, and equipment failures though

LOL I don't think the blooms and uglies can be skipped. That's one of the reasons I want to move slow and just let the tank do it's ugly thing until it matures a bit and then add stuff. I personally think the diatom bloom and ugly stage of the tank is kind of like reef tank puberty.

 

[Justiful]

It can be done. The problem is that if people do it wrong, they won't know till it is too late.

There are three general ways to run a tank in this hobby, I have seen on these forums. Control, prevention, reactive.

1. ULNS -- control -- Ideal candidate for quick cycling. This kind of reefer is a risk taker, and addicted to carbon dosing. They are constantly trying to find the happy place between starving corals and undetectable phosphate/nitrate. Probably has OCD and tests multiple times per day in extreme cases. likely with digital readers as that is the only way to be sure it is as close to zero as possible.

2. Modern Standard -- preventative -- Can go either way. But most don't quick cycle. If your this kind of reefer you want to prevent problems using skimmer, filter media, and live rock sand. Always looking for the next thing to prevent something that hasn't or may not happen.

3. Dirty/old/traditional -- reactive -- Least Ideal candidate. If your this kind of reefer you are refugium macro algae loving hippy. Who has a higher chance of a deep sand bed. If it aint broke don't fix it. Your fish likely have survived many diseases/parasites as they are not coddled. Only the strong survive, as nature intended.

People are either running there tank one of those three ways primarily. It is not set it stone, it is a spectrum. But everyone falls somewhere on the spectrum of how they run the tank. Some strategies are ideal for one form of tank management and less ideal for others. I am a newb but it seems to me the worst thing a person can do it change their chosen path, unless they start a new tank.

 

[Russ265]

It can be done. The problem is that if people do it wrong, they won't know till it is too late.

There are three general ways to run a tank in this hobby, I have seen on these forums. Control, prevention, reactive.

1. ULNS -- control -- Ideal candidate for quick cycling. This kind of reefer is a risk taker, and addicted to carbon dosing. They are constantly trying to find the happy place between starving corals and undetectable phosphate/nitrate. Probably has OCD and tests multiple times per day in extreme cases. likely with digital readers as that is the only way to be sure it is as close to zero as possible.

2. Modern Standard -- preventative -- Can go either way. But most don't quick cycle. If your this kind of reefer you want to prevent problems using skimmer, filter media, and live rock sand. Always looking for the next thing to prevent something that hasn't or may not happen.

3. Dirty/old/traditional -- reactive -- Least Ideal candidate. If your this kind of reefer you are refugium macro algae loving hippy. Who has a higher chance of a deep sand bed. If it aint broke don't fix it. Your fish likely have survived many diseases/parasites as they are not coddled. Only the strong survive, as nature intended.

People are either running there tank one of those three ways primarily. It is not set it stone, it is a spectrum. But everyone falls somewhere on the spectrum of how they run the tank. Some strategies are ideal for one form of tank management and less ideal for others. I am a newb but it seems to me the worst thing a person can do it change their chosen path, unless they start a new tank.

awww man. i have OCD. insurance is gonna skyrocket.

i kid. but is quite accurate.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

"Once upon a time" cycles were easy.... there was no such thing as dry rock, except on the freshwater side of the store. The "cycle" was over once the dead/dying stuff on it was processed. It was already established with bacteria from being in the ocean. Oh that moment when the nitrate appeared and you could do your 25% water change. There was no internet to confuse, we just sat there and waited, and waited, and waited.

 

[rayn]

It can be done. The problem is that if people do it wrong, they won't know till it is too late.

There are three general ways to run a tank in this hobby, I have seen on these forums. Control, prevention, reactive.

1. ULNS -- control -- Ideal candidate for quick cycling. This kind of reefer is a risk taker, and addicted to carbon dosing. They are constantly trying to find the happy place between starving corals and undetectable phosphate/nitrate. Probably has OCD and tests multiple times per day in extreme cases. likely with digital readers as that is the only way to be sure it is as close to zero as possible.

2. Modern Standard -- preventative -- Can go either way. But most don't quick cycle. If your this kind of reefer you want to prevent problems using skimmer, filter media, and live rock sand. Always looking for the next thing to prevent something that hasn't or may not happen.

3. Dirty/old/traditional -- reactive -- Least Ideal candidate. If your this kind of reefer you are refugium macro algae loving hippy. Who has a higher chance of a deep sand bed. If it aint broke don't fix it. Your fish likely have survived many diseases/parasites as they are not coddled. Only the strong survive, as nature intended.

People are either running there tank one of those three ways primarily. It is not set it stone, it is a spectrum. But everyone falls somewhere on the spectrum of how they run the tank. Some strategies are ideal for one form of tank management and less ideal for others. I am a newb but it seems to me the worst thing a person can do it change their chosen path, unless they start a new tank.

Somehow I manage to hit all three of those points, or a mixture of them all depending on the tanks purpose.

 

[rayn]

I have never used 100% live rock in a system. Now I'm not cheap with my tanks, they can easily run into the 1000's of dollars with equipment, corals, and fish. But rock will seed off other rocks or through the cycle itself. 100 gallon tank with 50 pounds of cured live rock at 7 bucks a pound...no thanks. I got better stuff to buy. I have more time then money at that point.

 

[Russ265]

I have never used 100% live rock in a system. Now I'm not cheap with my tanks, they can easily run into the 1000's of dollars with equipment, corals, and fish. But rock will seed off other rocks or through the cycle itself. 100 gallon tank with 50 pounds of cured live rock at 7 bucks a pound...no thanks. I got better stuff to buy. I have more time then money at that point.

....your rant is about "quick cycling".

but you seed with LR.
where is that kettle im missing?

 

[Pfisherman]

Nice I'm a dirty old reefer according to @Justiful before long I'm a be a dirty old man. Guess that's a type of cycle as well.

A reef tank is not truly cycled until the owner has decided he or she has a complete stock list and has a precise feeding schedule. Bacteria populations wax and wane on a daily basis dependant on the bioload. That is why I'm a fish in cycle practitioner its faster than fishless and in my opinion it gives better results.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

....your rant is about "quick cycling".

but you seed with LR.
where is that kettle im missing?

I don't consider seeding and quick cycling the same thing. Seeding with established LR is just that, seeding. It can still take forever to cycle.

But Doug actually said it best himself....

Heck I will take a rock out of one tank to setup the next, especially a QT tank. But I don't see the need to rush, say a 120, through the cycle. Give it time to set up and be ready for the inhabitants.

 

[Russ265]

I don't consider seeding and quick cycling the same thing. Seeding with established LR is just that, seeding. It can still take forever to cycle.

But Doug actually said it best himself....

LR isnt exactly void of bacteria. Cycling from nothing takes a while...

even a piece of LR rubble will accelerate it

 

[mcarroll]

In general I agree with the OP.

Most newbs come into this hobby with either "Finding Nemo" or "Tank Of The Month" in mind....neither is helpful or realistic, and they are off on the wrong foot before they even have their first tank.

First post can often be summarized something like: "My cycle finished thanks to rotten shrimp, so I put in 50 [name brand] frags last night! What fish go best cuz I'm shopping blindly online right now!"

This is getting worse because of the decline in LFS's IMO....or at least it's coincident. Not having a face-to-face during purchasing eliminates a lot of opportunities to be told: "No."

 

[rayn]

....your rant is about "quick cycling".

but you seed with LR.
where is that kettle im missing?

I don't consider seeding quick cycling, not sure how it can be. If I have 50 pounds of dead rock or used to be live rock, add a 5 pound live rock. Rest of that rock still has to go through the cycle process. All that organic matter needs to decompose. All that turns to ammonia.

Maybe I should clarify what goes through my mind. Live rock. Dead rock...previously used as live. Dry rock...never been used in a salt system.

Live rock is just that, live. Dead rock needs to be cleaned somehow, cycling usually. But at that it NEEDS to cycle. Dry rock...just that. Maybe maybe mined from the middle of Arizona for all I know. But if you take dead rock and bleach or acid dip, you basically have dry rock again.

When I consider quick cycling, I considernpeople string a tank and wanting to throw a bottle of some miracle bacteria and able to fully stock their tank.

 

[Russ265]

I don't consider seeding quick cycling, not sure how it can be. If I have 50 pounds of dead rock or used to be live rock, add a 5 pound live rock. Rest of that rock still has to go through the cycle process. All that organic matter needs to decompose. All that turns to ammonia.

Maybe I should clarify what goes through my mind. Live rock. Dead rock...previously used as live. Dry rock...never been used in a salt system.

Live rock is just that, live. Dead rock needs to be cleaned somehow, cycling usually. But at that it NEEDS to cycle. Dry rock...just that. Maybe maybe mined from the middle of Arizona for all I know. But if you take dead rock and bleach or acid dip, you basically have dry rock again.

When I consider quick cycling, I considernpeople string a tank and wanting to throw a bottle of some miracle bacteria and able to fully stock their tank.

here is my problem...

whether your bacteria comes on a media such as a LR or comes in a liquid from such as a bottle, you are introducing foreign bacteria to an otherwise "sterile" tank.

whether ancient dead stuff is fueling ammonia or my windex is. makes no nevermind.

let me go a little bit further.

if i took that LR rubble you used. crushed it in to sand and sold it in a bottle. would that constitute quick cycling?

 

[rayn]

No. I don't considernit quick cycling as it isn't going to prepare the tank for inhabitants.

The point is preparing the tank for the fish/coral we are going to keep. I'm not arguing the point of being able to speed up a cycle, people do it all the time. But is it best? You may be able to do it, heck maybe you've been in the hobby 20+ years, but the guy that just bought a tank last night shouldn't be considering it.

 

[Russ265]

No. I don't considernit quick cycling as it isn't going to prepare the tank for inhabitants.

The point is preparing the tank for the fish/coral we are going to keep. I'm not arguing the point of being able to speed up a cycle, people do it all the time. But is it best? You may be able to do it, heck maybe you've been in the hobby 20+ years, but the guy that just bought a tank last night shouldn't be considering it.

ok so new kids get away with not waiting 6 weeks to add fish.
if they wait, are they now experienced aquarists? thats all there is to the hobby?

"pack it up kids... nothing else to learn"

you dont give mother nature enough credit for swift kicking anyone in the rump who thinks they got it mastered after a cycle.

i assure you. they will learn as long as they keep with it

i still learn every day from you guys here at r2r. i may seem to know a ton a time or two but i am a lil inkling compared to us as a group

(and you old timers)

btw if i took your LR, crushed it, and threw it in some water with ammonia, im sure itll accelerate a cycle. bacteria are smaller than grains of sand

 

[Lionfish Lair]

The topic isn't whether or not you seed your tank.