observations of an old salt

[HuduVudu]

The only thing I add with any regularity is magnesium.

The Brightwell Kalk+2 has Mag in it as Magnesium Hydroxide. This might remove you need to add Mag. Just wanted to throw that out there for you.

 

[tvan]

@EMeyer, Bio deversity is added through every live thing we add to our systems. Concrete is very porous. Mined dry rock is what is used in live rock farming and stopped the mining of live reefs. Live sand has more surface area the rock... NSW sold in a box is another source of life. I now have feather dusters from frag plugs.

 

[Vette67]

The Brightwell Kalk+2 has Mag in it as Magnesium Hydroxide. This might remove you need to add Mag. Just wanted to throw that out there for you.

I actually have ReMag in my calcium reactor, but it doesn’t seem to keep up with demand. Maybe next time I refill my calcium reactor, I’ll put a little more ReMag than recommended to see if that helps things. But it’s a bit of a pain to refill it, and I probably won’t need a refill for another 6 months. I also just bought a half kilogram of kalk powder, so I could be set on that too. But I will definitely look into that Kalk + next time around. Thanks for the tip.

 

[EMeyer]

@EMeyer, Bio deversity is added through every live thing we add to our systems.

Where is the evidence for this? It gets repeated a lot, I will give you that much.

Concrete is very porous.

No, concrete is incredibly non-porous compared to live rock. Break a chunk apart sometime. Notice the complete lack of air spaces. I don't mean "few air spaces", I mean "zero air spaces". Unless you want to break out a microscope and go looking for micron-sized micro bubbles.

Now break apart a piece of real live rock (=dead coral). Its wide open in there. Spaces so big a worm could crawl around and raise a family. So big that there is more space than solid material. Gaps measured in millimeters to centimeters.

They are really not comparable. Concrete and mined rock are like a brick -- all rock, no gaps. Live rock is the opposite, all gaps with a little bit of aragonite around the edges.

Live sand has more surface area the rock...

Agreed! Real live sand is great stuff. (The stuff on the shelf in petco contains very little bacteria at all and what it does contain is *not* marine bacteria). Live mud is great too.

 

[tvan]

@EMeyer
ever hear of garf.... Your "live rock " is no longer available in the trade. Funny my petco live sand package disagrees with you... My 4 inch concrete root cellar roof drips water when it rains i.e. porous. My cast off concrete I'm using has the same structure as anything from back in the day, yes holes measured in inches. My bio diversity comes from ruble and frag plugs including algae for my ATS, fan worms, pods, coraline algae after four months. I can add worms, sponges, and other cryptic fauna (Steve Tyree) waiting for the system to mature a little longer.

 

[Sump Crab]

@EMeyer
ever hear of garf.... Your "live rock " is no longer available in the trade. Funny my petco live sand package disagrees with you... My 4 inch concrete root cellar roof drips water when it rains i.e. porous. My cast off concrete I'm using has the same structure as anything from back in the day, yes holes measured in inches. My bio diversity comes from ruble and frag plugs including algae for my ATS, fan worms, pods, coraline algae after four months. I can add worms, sponges, and other cryptic fauna (Steve Tyree) waiting for the system to mature a little longer.

I think one of the differences between you and many others is you are aiming to turn your dry rock started reef into one nearly as diverse as a live rock started reef. You are actively shopping for rubble with diverse life on it. I think that is great and probably the best option available to a lot of people that can end in a very diverse and healthy reef. I really started this thread to create more of an awareness against the sterilized reef tank. The one in which people are actively trying to keep most if not all critters from the tank that they cannot get from a bottle.

 

[G Santana]

Oh the old days lol
Tons of live rock, mantis shrimp surprise and instant bio filtration.
Half the fun back in the 90's was you never knew exactly what live rock was bringing you but it was always cool.
I never QTd fish back then and never had any type of infestations, coincidence, IDK
But that is the way it was.
I had a great tank for 10 yrs before I had to break it down, bear bottom, sump and skimmer, not much else.

 

[McPuff]

My first "reef" was actually just a couple of pieces of expensive live rock that I bought back in 2003 for a 20g. I literally just watched the rock and whatever grew from it for several months. It was so interesting and it looked amazing. Over the next few years I was able to find some more live rock from established tanks, bought a few more pieces, and also mixed in some dry rock. All of that still provides the basis for what I have in my tank some 17 years later. But yeah, the live rock we could buy back then was pretty terrific.

 

[bobbyM]

I’ve started all my tanks except my first one with dry rock. First saltwater tank I set up in 1998. I’ve been working professionally since 2003. I’ve set many tanks up for clients that I serviced. I would estimate an equal amount of successes and failures on both live rock and dry rock teams. Depended on how well they themselves treated the tank. Here is one of my dry rock set ups see for yourself.

4 years later photo.

 

[Doctorgori]

I sense people get tired of hearing how long one has been in the hobby, so I only mention this for scale/perspective. 30yrs ago live rock meant straight from the ocean. Sometimes you could get the air shipped stuff still with halmedia, brain corals and porites still alive.

The thing missing here is whats living under the rocks. I’m still waiting for my dry rock to be colonized with sponges and the like

 

[sas226]

Been in the hobby for 15 years and I gotta spill my guts on this. So many algae filled white rock tanks out there these days. I mean picture after picture of unhealthy looking tanks. Whats up with this trend on starting a sterile dry rock tank?

Why are people so afraid of "pests"? I think the reason pests take hold and reach plague proportions is due to the lack of biodiversity found in these sterilized tanks. I mean I have vermitid snails and red planaria in my reef but they have found a balance in my ecosystem. I have to look hard just to find one flatworm and often times can't. I don't qt fish but my oldest is 12 years. I have so many unnamed critters and bristle worms yet my corals don't get eaten. I have algaes in my tank that can't compete against my Coraline. I relish the moments I discover a new critter in my tank, I certainly don't panic.

If you're new to the hobby just know that there is another way to start a reef that works. You can have a tank that is beautiful from day one. You don't have to go the dry rock route. Look at LIVErock as the single greatest investment in your reefs success.

I hope that a trend will start in the direction of farmed ocean rock. More biodiversity in reefs is needed. No longer will newbies wait for a year or longer for an established tank. No longer will the majority of tanks be a mixture of white, brown, and a handful of tiny unhappy frags.

It's a few things.

• It's hard to find actual live rock now, a lot of places have banned the harvesting of it.
• If you can find it, it's incredibly expensive. Dry rock is like 2-3 dollars a lb, live rock is 5+ dollars a pound and crazy shipping costs.
• Live rock gives you very limited aquascaping options. Reefing has gone the way of freshwater. Straying away from the pile of rocks look. So dry rock is needed.
• If a tank is "Algae filled with white rocks" it's likely a new tank. Nothing wrong with it being ugly for awhile. The white rock gives it away that its a new tank.
• I'm not afraid of pests, I just don't want them. I want control over what's in my tank.

People have an continue to have complete success with dry rock. I think you're misinterpreting different paths to success and claiming one is better than the other. I'll gladly wait longer to have the aquascape I want, the exact creatures I want etc. You may be comfortable with pests in your tank, a lot of people aren't. Same goes for QT'ing fish. To each their own. IMO, I don't believe investing in live rock is worth it. Not in what I'd have to concede to do so. I've been in the hobby about 10 years. My 1st salt tank was setup using live rock, didn't have as much a problem with unsightly algae as I did in that tank with the 3 tanks I've setup since with dry rock. It's anecdotal but there it is.

 

[Debramb]

I started after 2001. If it was better b4 then I'd like ro have seen it.



Obviously no rock is alive but what did you mean that neither is "true" liverock?

20-25 yrs ago LFS’s had tanks stocked with live rock, about $4-5 a pound, felt stupid paying that much but it sure was nice. Every paycheck we’d spend on rocks lol

 

[Sump Crab]

I’ve started all my tanks except my first one with dry rock. First saltwater tank I set up in 1998. I’ve been working professionally since 2003. I’ve set many tanks up for clients that I serviced. I would estimate an equal amount of successes and failures on both live rock and dry rock teams. Depended on how well they themselves treated the tank. Here is one of my dry rock set ups see for yourself.

4 years later photo.

Thats a really nice tank! I would never pretend that dry rock tanks cannot be successful, there are too many examples of wonderful dry rock tanks. My point in this thread was to let newbies know that there is another way to start a reef besides dry rock.

It's a few things.

• It's hard to find actual live rock now, a lot of places have banned the harvesting of it.
• If you can find it, it's incredibly expensive. Dry rock is like 2-3 dollars a lb, live rock is 5+ dollars a pound and crazy shipping costs.
• Live rock gives you very limited aquascaping options. Reefing has gone the way of freshwater. Straying away from the pile of rocks look. So dry rock is needed.
• If a tank is "Algae filled with white rocks" it's likely a new tank. Nothing wrong with it being ugly for awhile. The white rock gives it away that its a new tank.
• I'm not afraid of pests, I just don't want them. I want control over what's in my tank.

People have an continue to have complete success with dry rock. I think you're misinterpreting different paths to success and claiming one is better than the other. I'll gladly wait longer to have the aquascape I want, the exact creatures I want etc. You may be comfortable with pests in your tank, a lot of people aren't. Same goes for QT'ing fish. To each their own. IMO, I don't believe investing in live rock is worth it. Not in what I'd have to concede to do so. I've been in the hobby about 10 years. My 1st salt tank was setup using live rock, didn't have as much a problem with unsightly algae as I did in that tank with the 3 tanks I've setup since with dry rock. It's anecdotal but there it is.

To each there own I suppose. There seems to be 2 main differing opinions in this thread, those who want a "true" piece of the ocean in their home and those who seek a more controlled version of the ocean. As I have stated before I would have not gotten into the hobby if live rock had not been available to me. It was literally the live rock with its sponges, feather dusters, pods, tunicates, macro algaes, unique colors, and unknown hitchhikers that converted me to saltwater. I enjoy having a self contained ecosystem that basically takes care of itself. I dont dose chemicals, I dont qt, I dont siphon my sand, I dont medicate, I dont test, I simply let the system find its own equilibrium. I do maybe 3 or 4 water changes per year just to reintroduce calcium and alk.

I really hope this thread helps someone like me realize their reef tank dream. I surely think you can appreciate the sentiment that many may chose to go the LR method if they knew it was available to them, not only due to quicker tank maturity but also due to the pleasure found in the biodiversity on the rock.

 

[Sump Crab]

20-25 yrs ago LFS’s had tanks stocked with live rock, about $4-5 a pound, felt stupid paying that much but it sure was nice. Every paycheck we’d spend on rocks lol

I remember paying around $10/lb lol

 

[Thaxxx]

med, dips, and the like are not a prerequisite with going with sterile rock. If you actually follow due diligence when introducing stock you don’t have massive die off. It happens more with dry rock starts. But again, that’s from impatience and not inspecting what you put into your tank. I will grant you it’s more likely, but I’ve seen plenty of experienced people use only dry rock and their tanks are just as successful. It just takes more time.

And there is where the problem is. From the countless posts we see in here on Dino, algea, using dry rock. Seems as if there is that lack of the patience needed to start with dry rock. So for you impatient ones out there that say your really patient. Live rock may be the answer. If you do the math cost wise. Including the stress of all the problems dry can cause. It's well worth it. As far as pests go. They are pets, not pests.

 

[SebastianReefer]

Yep started out my tank with 65 pounds of well established pukani rock from a trusted source. Also have about 200 pounds of dry Fiji Pukani and Marshall island rock and still hoarding. Trusted meaning well cared for and no copper treatments in tank. I saw a posting for someone selling established Marshall island rock that had been exposed to copper. I almost cried literally

I have Marshall island and Fiji rock in my tank from the old days when I left the hobby for about 12 years I passed it on to my dad and let him have fun with the hobby well I have that same rock back and thank god I do as I found out so many things had changed I currently have 6 tanks now and each one I started I used some of my old school rock

 

[SebastianReefer]

I have Marshall island and Fiji rock in my tank from the old days when I left the hobby for about 12 years I passed it on to my dad and let him have fun with the hobby well I have that same rock back and thank god I do as I found out so many things had changed I currently have 6 tanks now and each one I started I used some of my old school rock

Oh yea forgot to add I don’t qt either anything at most I dip corals and inspect them that’s it I don’t drip acclimate either float for 30 then into bucket and start adding water from my tank

 

[Snoopdog]

Well I finally had some success. After a good long search in town I finally found, of all places, a Petco with live rock. It was straight from Florida. Yeah it was not the Marshall Islands or Fiji but danged if that piece did not have a bunch of diversity in it. I counted no less than 30 tiny bristle worms on the rock when I got it. It even came with two small clusters of Xenia on it. I am hoping for things like some pineapple sponges or parchment worms are somewhere hidden away.

 

[EMeyer]

@EMeyer
ever hear of garf.... Your "live rock " is no longer available in the trade. Funny my petco live sand package disagrees with you... My 4 inch concrete root cellar roof drips water when it rains i.e. porous. My cast off concrete I'm using has the same structure as anything from back in the day, yes holes measured in inches. My bio diversity comes from ruble and frag plugs including algae for my ATS, fan worms, pods, coraline algae after four months. I can add worms, sponges, and other cryptic fauna (Steve Tyree) waiting for the system to mature a little longer.

Not true, live rock is still available. Its just harder to get.

Have you measured the bacteria that are actually in the "live sand" at petco? I have. There are very few kinds, at very low levels, and they are *not* marine bacteria that you want in your tank.

No, concrete is not porous just because of some drips. Break it open. There are no air spaces unless you break out a microscope. Now break open a piece of actual live rock. Big spaces, in the mm to cm size range.

These are measurable, testable things...

 

[Snoopdog]

Not true, live rock is still available. Its just harder to get.

Have you measured the bacteria that are actually in the "live sand" at petco? I have. There are very few kinds, at very low levels, and they are *not* marine bacteria that you want in your tank.

No, concrete is not porous just because of some drips. Break it open. There are no air spaces unless you break out a microscope. Now break open a piece of actual live rock. Big spaces, in the mm to cm size range.

These are measurable, testable things...

Yeah I do not buy the entire "live sand in a bag". Smell the water in the bag, does it smell like a reef? Never.