PNS PROBIO and Carbon dosing

[Larry L]

Thanks! I might try smaller daily or every other day doses?

I have no idea about dose size, I just made it up. My "5 ml per 80 gal per day" dose was based on the very scientific fact of me happening to have a 5 ml syringe sitting nearby. But it seemed reasonable given the dosing info on the product label.

My NO3 is 1ppm or less, but my PO4 is .24ppm on average, so I'm just trying to lower it below 0.2ppm.

I didn't notice any direct effect on phosphates, only on nitrates.

 

[minus9]

I have no idea about dose size, I just made it up. My "5 ml per 80 gal per day" dose was based on the very scientific fact of me happening to have a 5 ml syringe sitting nearby. But it seemed reasonable given the dosing info on the product label.


I didn't notice any direct effect on phosphates, only on nitrates.

I'm not too worried about nitrates, they've always been at NSW levels, but I've been dosing NaNO3 to help lower phosphates a little, which seems to helps a little. My elevated phosphates are primarily from organic waste (it doesn't help that I have a full grown foxface in my tank) so I thought about smaller daily doses to help a little. I'm in the process of re-homing the foxface, but until then I'm trying to help as much as I can. I've also removed some biomass inn the way of two large monti colonies, so the uptake has reduced a little. I need to buy/trade more frags.

 

[reefluvrr]

Hi @Kenneth Wingerter

I am very sorry for the delay in update. I had to do some and probably more corrections in my tank not related to carbon dosing and PNS Probio.

On August 20th, I tested my own tank specs so that I can compare to ATI lab test
PO4-- 0.16
NO3-- 4ppm
Alk-- 8.4 dkh
Ca -- 450

ATI test results came back on Aug 31st, 2020 as:
PO4--0.17
NO3--5.47
Alk --10.11
Ca--488.2

However, here is where all hell broke loose....
Extremely high levels of toxic metals!!--Lead, Tin, Copper
Potassium, Bromine, Iodine, Molybdenum, Nickel, Manganese --all high

Here is the link of my results:

Auswertungsergebnis

ATI Aquaristik - Lab

lab.atiaquaristik.com

I read that too high levels of Molybedenum is linked to increase in algae and dino issues. (Maybe this was why I had dino's)

From September 1st to 7th, I replaced 100% water change over the course of 4 days using brand new Instant Ocean Salt mix as I was told there is very little trace elements in the salt mix.

I think the cause of my problem is my rusted Auto Top off Pump in my top off reservoir tank.

I have now replaced it with a new pump. In addition I have been running Cuprisorb in a Phosban Media reactor filled with X-port biocubes inoculated with PNS PRobio.

I had tried to use my Pax Bellum, but my over-sized skimmer does not allow me to fit it into the sump together....

This was all done last week.

Right after my water change my NO3 was 1ppm and PO4 was 0.07 last week

This week my NO3 remained the same at 1ppm, but PO4 slowly crept up to 0.2....
(I had even dosed two separate doses of 30ml each of PNS probio)

At this point, I was going crazy.... Why is my carbon dosing not working especially when I was slowly increasing my carbon dosing levels each day trying to decrease PO4.

Since my reef tank is in my office, I can only troubleshoot my problems after work or on my days off. Last evening, I discovered my Neptune DOS pump's rubber tubing had a small hole and was not able to prime consistently for my carbon dose to work properly.

I now have set a spare DOS pump as the main carbon dose pump.

Since I usually dose about 2ml of carbon per day, I dosed 10ml of carbon and 30ml of PNS Probio at 6:00 p.m.
I turned off my skimmer for about 6 hours. Since my PO4 levels were high relative to how much NO3 I had. I also manually dosed 6ppm of NO3 into the tank.

This morning I returned back to the office to retest:
PO4--0.03 ----> yes!!! PNS Probio bacteria thus far works the best for me in reducing PO4 levels
NO3--0.67

Barring any other equipment malfunction, hopefully I can find a proper level of carbon dosing to help maintain a low PO4 level throughout the next couple weeks. I also plan to send out for a new ATI lab test next week.

Sorry for the long story, but hopefully now I can report my experience again with PNS Probio.

Ken, thank you for all your help thus far. I appreciate all your recommendation and insights!

Alex

 

[whitejawfish]

I carbon dose so tagging along

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi @Kenneth Wingerter

I am very sorry for the delay in update. I had to do some and probably more corrections in my tank not related to carbon dosing and PNS Probio.

On August 20th, I tested my own tank specs so that I can compare to ATI lab test
PO4-- 0.16
NO3-- 4ppm
Alk-- 8.4 dkh
Ca -- 450

ATI test results came back on Aug 31st, 2020 as:
PO4--0.17
NO3--5.47
Alk --10.11
Ca--488.2

However, here is where all hell broke loose....
Extremely high levels of toxic metals!!--Lead, Tin, Copper
Potassium, Bromine, Iodine, Molybdenum, Nickel, Manganese --all high

Here is the link of my results:

Auswertungsergebnis

ATI Aquaristik - Lab

lab.atiaquaristik.com

I read that too high levels of Molybedenum is linked to increase in algae and dino issues. (Maybe this was why I had dino's)

From September 1st to 7th, I replaced 100% water change over the course of 4 days using brand new Instant Ocean Salt mix as I was told there is very little trace elements in the salt mix.

I think the cause of my problem is my rusted Auto Top off Pump in my top off reservoir tank.

I have now replaced it with a new pump. In addition I have been running Cuprisorb in a Phosban Media reactor filled with X-port biocubes inoculated with PNS PRobio.

I had tried to use my Pax Bellum, but my over-sized skimmer does not allow me to fit it into the sump together....

This was all done last week.

Right after my water change my NO3 was 1ppm and PO4 was 0.07 last week

This week my NO3 remained the same at 1ppm, but PO4 slowly crept up to 0.2....
(I had even dosed two separate doses of 30ml each of PNS probio)

At this point, I was going crazy.... Why is my carbon dosing not working especially when I was slowly increasing my carbon dosing levels each day trying to decrease PO4.

Since my reef tank is in my office, I can only troubleshoot my problems after work or on my days off. Last evening, I discovered my Neptune DOS pump's rubber tubing had a small hole and was not able to prime consistently for my carbon dose to work properly.

I now have set a spare DOS pump as the main carbon dose pump.

Since I usually dose about 2ml of carbon per day, I dosed 10ml of carbon and 30ml of PNS Probio at 6:00 p.m.
I turned off my skimmer for about 6 hours. Since my PO4 levels were high relative to how much NO3 I had. I also manually dosed 6ppm of NO3 into the tank.

This morning I returned back to the office to retest:
PO4--0.03 ----> yes!!! PNS Probio bacteria thus far works the best for me in reducing PO4 levels
NO3--0.67

Barring any other equipment malfunction, hopefully I can find a proper level of carbon dosing to help maintain a low PO4 level throughout the next couple weeks. I also plan to send out for a new ATI lab test next week.

Sorry for the long story, but hopefully now I can report my experience again with PNS Probio.

Ken, thank you for all your help thus far. I appreciate all your recommendation and insights!

Alex

Hi Alex, thanks for the very interesting update. And sorry to hear about the top-off incident (that's a lot of toxic metals!). Are you using the Xport NO3 Cubes? Had to look up Xport, they seem pretty useful (I'm mostly familiar with MarinePure). One thing... Your carbon dosing solution may already have acetate in it. But if it doesn't, I'd consider adding some if you're specifically targeting R. palustris (which prefers acetate over alcohols and especially over sugars). Would like to see an image of your reactor set-up! Is it receiving much light?

 

[reefluvrr]

Hi Ken,

I just sent out for my second ATI lab test yesterday.

For about four days now, my PO4 has been stable at 0.05. I am dosing 3.6 ml of Tropic Marin Elimi-NP carbon dose per day. Tropic Marin says this carbon source is made with polyalcohols.

If I want to add acetate as well, what specific acetate do you recommend? Any suggestion of dose for a 60 gallon tank?

I am so happy right now because I have never been able to keep my PO4 so low just from carbon dosing and running a skimmer. No GFO!

I actually am not running any light in the phosban reactor right now. I will take a pic of it tomorrow. I do not know if I will need to install a light in the phosban reactor since my PO4 is already stable at 0.05.

My NO3 is probably at 0.25 or less though now. Thankfully R. palustris can fix it's own N.

Are you using the Xport NO3 Cubes?

I am using Xport Biocubes. I believe Xport NO3 is doped with elemental sulfur specifically made to reduce NO3 which I don't really need. I just want a substrate which can home R. palustris well.

If my nutrient level changes, then I may play with adding light to the reactor.

Right now, I am adding about 30ml of PNS Probio with 15ml of PNS Yello Sno a week.
I will keep everything running the same until I see the result of the second ATI lab test.

Ken, thank you very much for your time as always.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

These guys will work in dark conditions, but are roughly twice as productive (~double growth rate) under photic conditions. Something to think about!

Some people use calcium acetate, as it helps (albeit in a small way) to replenish lost calcium from the system water. For the purpose of nourishing heterotrophic bacteria, sodium acetate works in exactly the same way and is quite easy/inexpensive to make yourself. The attached link is one of many recipes you might find online; you can alternatively use the aqeous solution for dosing if you'd prefer not to completely dehydrate it. When preparing a solution, you can mix the two components to a pH that is safe/beneficial for saltwater aquaria (~8.4). I always use distilled water (as opposed to tap) to avoid the inadvertent creation of additional, less desirable, compounds.

As with any carbon dosing agent, I'd start with very minimal doses and increase gradually as desired. You might do this while simultaneous weaning the polyalcohols. In so doing you'll probably discover the Goldilocks ratio for your particular system. Ideally, you can dose it right at the intake of the reactor.

One other thing these (and many other beneficial) bacteria need, by the way, is vitamin B (e.g. B9 and B12); however, so long as you continue to feed PNS YelloSno, you'll probably be covered there and not need additional sources.

I didn't see anything about added sulfur in Xport NO3 (at a glance), now you've got me even more interested and will look at it again.

 

[reefluvrr]

I didn't see anything about added sulfur in Xport NO3 (at a glance), now you've got me even more interested and will look at it again.

http://www.brightwellaquatics.com/products/xport_no3.php ---- I got this info directly from their first statement underneath the title.

Thank you for the link and info on how to make calcium acetate. I will use distilled water to be able to carbon dose with it.

Any suggestion on how often I should dose with Yello Sno for the vitamin B? Is my 2:1 ratio of Probio to Yello Sno okay?

Thanks!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Any suggestion on how often I should dose with Yello Sno for the vitamin B? Is my 2:1 ratio of Probio to Yello Sno okay?

Thanks!

Yes, I believe 2:1 would be fine.

 

[reefluvrr]

Here is a pic of media reactor with brightwell biocubes. I am running cuprsorb and carbon on too of the reactor as well.

 

[reefluvrr]

Hi @Kenneth Wingerter ,

I received my 2nd ATI ICP test. Surprisingly my tin, zinc, iron, aluminum are still too high.
I used one dose on chemi clear blue, two doses of cuprsorb prior to sending out for the second test.

I hope it will just take time for those trace metal to continue to go down. I will continue using Cuprsorb and refreshing it each week until I do another retest with ATI ICP next month.

The most exciting news is that I am able to maintain my PO4 level at 0.04-0.07 level with PNS Probio and Yello Sno without using any GFO and my NO3 levels are at 5mg/L from ATI ICP test.

My Red Sea Pro NO3 test showed 0.0ppm.

I noticed an explosion of copepods on my glass tank surface even after wiping the glass clean the previous day.

Does PNS Probio or Yello Sno help feed copepods as well?

Now that I can control my PO4 and NO3 levels, I just started dosing with Easy Reef SPS evo food yesterday.

It will be interesting to see if and how much I need to increase my carbon dosing to keep my PO4 levels below 0.1 while using PNS Probio.

Again, thanks for all your help!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Nice! And no GFO!

I'd bet that PNS YelloSno would feed most copepods (both benthic and planktonic), since it's basically just enriched particulate organic matter. AlgaeBarn actually uses it along with their phyto to culture their Daphnia; my guess is that they like the B12 (I used to raise daphniids at a lab, and B vitamins were an essential component of their diet).

I'm positive from firsthand experience that PNS ProBio feeds pods. It was the only food or supplement of any kind that I used in my experimental coral tanks (with soft and stony corals on PVC, no rock/sand), and the pods (especially isopods) exploded. Good numbers of an unidentified copepod in there too... I always thought these huge pod populations might crash, but they never did.

You shouldn't have to add much carbon if using YelloSno. Of course, it contains some phosphorus (it's a food and necessarily contains phosphorus), though its Redfield phosphate content is low relative to that of organic carbon and nitrogen. Plus the YelloSno supplies B vitamins, which is the only thing R. palustris cannot synthesize itself, and might be a limiting cofactor in an aquarium environment. (That's my educated guess anyway!)

I haven't yet used Easy Reef. But it sure smells like a high quality food, haha. Would be interesting to see if you do, or don't, find that it acts as a "phosphate bomb" as some other coral food brands reportedly are. If you do find that you want to carbon dose, I'd suggest acetate (for R. palustris) rather that ethanol, but I think I've hit on that somewhere above...

Good luck eliminating those metal contaminants, hopefully they were just bound to the aragonite and/or other substrates and will be flushed out soon!

 

[reefluvrr]

You shouldn't have to add much carbon if using YelloSno. Of course, it contains some phosphorus (it's a food and necessarily contains phosphorus), though its Redfield phosphate content is low relative to that of organic carbon and nitrogen. Plus the YelloSno supplies B vitamins, which is the only thing R. palustris cannot synthesize itself, and might be a limiting cofactor in an aquarium environment. (That's my educated guess anyway!)

I plan to use YelloSno and PNS ProBio once weekly to seed my tank with fresh bacteria. This appears to be enough to grow the pods on the glass surface.

I haven't yet used Easy Reef. But it sure smells like a high quality food, haha. Would be interesting to see if you do, or don't, find that it acts as a "phosphate bomb" as some other coral food brands reportedly are. If you do find that you want to carbon dose, I'd suggest acetate (for R. palustris) rather that ethanol, but I think I've hit on that somewhere above...

I am going to finish using up my existing carbon source before I switch over to acetate. Hate to waste product that is working already.

Thanks for your prompt reply!

 

[reefluvrr]

Hi @Kenneth Wingerter ,

I just switched over to using sodium acetate from Tropic Marin Elimni-NP.

I actually went and purchased a 500g of Sodium Acetate to bypass trying to make the product.
(Family probably will have a sour face with the smell if I tried to do this at home).

I tasted how sour the 1L bottle would be. It was way more salty than sour. (Is this normal?)

I will start with 10ml of Sodium Acetate and see how my PO4 levels and NO3 levels will go.

Yesterday my PO4 levels were at 0.13 and 5ppm NO3.

I homed 5 new anthias in my tank thus I have increased feeding from 1 cube to 3 cubes of food per day.
The SPS EVO has been dosed daily at 6ml for the last few weeks.

Thus far very impressed with how levels PO4 levels have slowly moved up without increasing carbon dosing for last few weeks with from 0.05 to .13.

Now I want to see how efficient PNS Probio will be with acetate vs polyalcohol's.

Hoping for good results!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi @Kenneth Wingerter ,

I just switched over to using sodium acetate from Tropic Marin Elimni-NP.

I actually went and purchased a 500g of Sodium Acetate to bypass trying to make the product.
(Family probably will have a sour face with the smell if I tried to do this at home).

I tasted how sour the 1L bottle would be. It was way more salty than sour. (Is this normal?)

I will start with 10ml of Sodium Acetate and see how my PO4 levels and NO3 levels will go.

Yesterday my PO4 levels were at 0.13 and 5ppm NO3.

I homed 5 new anthias in my tank thus I have increased feeding from 1 cube to 3 cubes of food per day.
The SPS EVO has been dosed daily at 6ml for the last few weeks.

Thus far very impressed with how levels PO4 levels have slowly moved up without increasing carbon dosing for last few weeks with from 0.05 to .13.

Now I want to see how efficient PNS Probio will be with acetate vs polyalcohol's.

Hoping for good results!

Can't say that I've ever tasted the stuff, and I never noticed much an odor (but I just use the liquid, rather than boiling off the water to a powder).

 

[greg 45]

I hope you don't mind me joining in here . I just started to use the product . my system is 1200 gallons sps and anemones . Before using this I tried every program / carbon dosing you can imagine and all they did was solve one issue them create another type of algae. I am only two week in no3 and p04 are high . The anemones seem to love the pro bio also just added the yellow snow . Going to give it some time . I do have a question for reefluvrr / why are you still carbon dosing with other product. How long have you been using pro bio. I do believe there is a important role in bacteria. I also added siporax to the sump so my system could be going through a mini cycle . ORP was at 250 starting now working its way back up, at 318 today. There was plenty of die off from rocks and sludge on my bare bottom . This is starting to go away ,

 

[greg 45]

I hope you don't mind me joining in here . I just started to use the product . my system is 1200 gallons sps and anemones . Before using this I tried every program / carbon dosing you can imagine and all they did was solve one issue them create another type of algae. I am only two week in no3 and p04 are high . The anemones seem to love the pro bio also just added the yellow snow . Going to give it some time . I do have a question for reefluvrr / why are you still carbon dosing with other product. How long have you been using pro bio. I do believe there is a important role in bacteria. I also added siporax to the sump so my system could be going through a mini cycle . ORP was at 250 starting now working its way back up, at 318 today. There was plenty of die off from rocks and sludge on my bare bottom . This is starting to go away ,

 

[flampton]

Nice! And no GFO!

I'd bet that PNS YelloSno would feed most copepods (both benthic and planktonic), since it's basically just enriched particulate organic matter. AlgaeBarn actually uses it along with their phyto to culture their Daphnia; my guess is that they like the B12 (I used to raise daphniids at a lab, and B vitamins were an essential component of their diet).

I'm positive from firsthand experience that PNS ProBio feeds pods. It was the only food or supplement of any kind that I used in my experimental coral tanks (with soft and stony corals on PVC, no rock/sand), and the pods (especially isopods) exploded. Good numbers of an unidentified copepod in there too... I always thought these huge pod populations might crash, but they never did.

You shouldn't have to add much carbon if using YelloSno. Of course, it contains some phosphorus (it's a food and necessarily contains phosphorus), though its Redfield phosphate content is low relative to that of organic carbon and nitrogen. Plus the YelloSno supplies B vitamins, which is the only thing R. palustris cannot synthesize itself, and might be a limiting cofactor in an aquarium environment. (That's my educated guess anyway!)

I haven't yet used Easy Reef. But it sure smells like a high quality food, haha. Would be interesting to see if you do, or don't, find that it acts as a "phosphate bomb" as some other coral food brands reportedly are. If you do find that you want to carbon dose, I'd suggest acetate (for R. palustris) rather that ethanol, but I think I've hit on that somewhere above...

Good luck eliminating those metal contaminants, hopefully they were just bound to the aragonite and/or other substrates and will be flushed out soon!

Hi Kenneth, I'm a bit confused by the statement that the R. palustris can't make its own B vitamins. Are you using an unusual strain? The common laboratory strain CGA009 can produce all of them. Are you utilizing a sequenced strain or a environmental isolate?

If you would prefer to answer by PM that would be fine by me. I'm interested in testing this product but I already have access to CGA009. Interested in why yours might be different.

Thanks!
Eric

 

[joshwaggs]

Dumb question, but do the bacteria in PNS Probio replicate? Or does it just die off until you add more?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi Kenneth, I'm a bit confused by the statement that the R. palustris can't make its own B vitamins. Are you using an unusual strain? The common laboratory strain CGA009 can produce all of them. Are you utilizing a sequenced strain or a environmental isolate?

If you would prefer to answer by PM that would be fine by me. I'm interested in testing this product but I already have access to CGA009. Interested in why yours might be different.

Thanks!
Eric

Hi Eric, interesting, I'll have to look into that strain a bit more (it's not the one used in this product). I'm looking into obtaining TIE-1, so now you're making me want to double check that one's growth factor requirements too haha.

From the top of my head, most or all of the strains I've encountered in the literature require B vitamins and apparently are incapable of synthesizing their own (hence the frequent use of yeast extract in most media). I even recall seeing a study of R. palustris where the investigators omitted various components of the B complex to figure out which ones must be obtained exogenously (I think there were two for that strain, but let me see if I can find it and link it here).

PM me if you'd like to share more details about any tests you're considering running, I'm very interested!