PNS PROBIO and Carbon dosing

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Dumb question, but do the bacteria in PNS Probio replicate? Or does it just die off until you add more?

Not a dumb question at all! These microbes are extremely adaptable, and so will almost certainly survive in an aquarium, at least for a good amount of time. The issue is how many survive. That depends on the particular physiochemical environment and microbial community in your system. In other words, their population density will depend upon food availability, competition with other microbes, use of protein skimmers, ozone or UV, predation by bacterioplanktivores, even lighting. If you wish to ensure good densities or especially if you use these bacteria primarily as a live coral food, I'd suggest regular dosing.

 

[joshwaggs]

Not a dumb question at all! These microbes are extremely adaptable, and so will almost certainly survive in an aquarium, at least for a good amount of time. The issue is how many survive. That depends on the particular physiochemical environment and microbial community in your system. In other words, their population density will depend upon food availability, competition with other microbes, use of protein skimmers, ozone or UV, predation by bacterioplanktivores, even lighting. If you wish to ensure good densities or especially if you use these bacteria primarily as a live coral food, I'd suggest regular dosing.

Thanks

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Thanks

No prob. Also, I kept saying "survive" as to imply reproduce. But yeah, just to be clear, they definitely can establish lasting populations in aquaria (generally within biofilms in moderately illuminated anaerobic areas).

 

[reefluvrr]

I do have a question for reefluvrr / why are you still carbon dosing with other product. How long have you been using pro bio.

Hi Greg45,

I have been running my office tank for over 2 years now. Initially I let the tank run on just a skimmer. I would buy a lot of LPS and SPS to display but they never really grew well. My PO4 were like over 0.6 and NO3 were over 20.

About 1 year ago, I decided to run NOPOX. I was able to get NO3 down to 3ppm, but PO4 was still like 0.6...
I then tried running phosguard in a reactor and my PO4 went down to 0.1.
Suddenly I noticed my SPS and LPS thriving and growing. The corals would grow for about 2-3 weeks until my phosguard was exhausted and I needed to change out my phosguard again.

I wanted to find a way that I could keep PO4 low and stable consistently.

1st I tried using NOPOX alone without dosing any bacteria, but I would overdose NOPOX in trying to drive down my PO4 below 0.1. Bacteria bloom would ensue and clog up my pumps, oxygen levels go down and corals would die. In short NOPOX didn't work well for me alone.

Next I tried dosing bacteria in a bottle. I ran Zeovit about 15 years ago and found it way to time consuming for me.
I tried Microbacter7, Dr. Tim's waste away, Eco Balance, Seachem Stability with NOPOX.

I had good results with NO3 going down, but still struggled with PO4 going down without increasing NOPOX which still caused a bacteria bloom.

Since I do not know what bacteria is in the above products I used, I decided to try PNS Probio. PNS Probio listed out their bacteria. Ken Wingerter helped me out tremendously in understanding more about this product as well.

At around the same time I decided to switch over to Tropic Marin Elimi NP as my carbon dosing source. (Their claim is that you don't need to use a lot of their product to reduce NO3 and PO4)

I have been using PNS Probio for over 2 months now combined with Elimi NP. I have had a bad case of cyano/dino initally as stated in my earlier posts. (I did a 3 day black out with Flucanazole and problem went away)
For the last month my NO3 reads 0 and my PO4 is down to 0.03 to 0.07. I have not had any green algae on my glass or cyano/dino in my tank. No crazy bacteria blooms either!

I am finally able to keep my PO4 consistently below 0.1 finally without using phosguard. Sorry for the long story, but this is the reason why I use PNS Probio with carbon dosing.

Just this weekend I switched over to using Acetic acid with PNS Probio. I am getting nervous though because my PO4 has crept up switching over to acetic acid since I have not figured out the necessary dosage amount yet.

HTH



I

 

[Jimmy_HC]

Hi Greg45,

I have been running my office tank for over 2 years now. Initially I let the tank run on just a skimmer. I would buy a lot of LPS and SPS to display but they never really grew well. My PO4 were like over 0.6 and NO3 were over 20.

About 1 year ago, I decided to run NOPOX. I was able to get NO3 down to 3ppm, but PO4 was still like 0.6...
I then tried running phosguard in a reactor and my PO4 went down to 0.1.
Suddenly I noticed my SPS and LPS thriving and growing. The corals would grow for about 2-3 weeks until my phosguard was exhausted and I needed to change out my phosguard again.

I wanted to find a way that I could keep PO4 low and stable consistently.

1st I tried using NOPOX alone without dosing any bacteria, but I would overdose NOPOX in trying to drive down my PO4 below 0.1. Bacteria bloom would ensue and clog up my pumps, oxygen levels go down and corals would die. In short NOPOX didn't work well for me alone.

Next I tried dosing bacteria in a bottle. I ran Zeovit about 15 years ago and found it way to time consuming for me.
I tried Microbacter7, Dr. Tim's waste away, Eco Balance, Seachem Stability with NOPOX.

I had good results with NO3 going down, but still struggled with PO4 going down without increasing NOPOX which still caused a bacteria bloom.

Since I do not know what bacteria is in the above products I used, I decided to try PNS Probio. PNS Probio listed out their bacteria. Ken Wingerter helped me out tremendously in understanding more about this product as well.

At around the same time I decided to switch over to Tropic Marin Elimi NP as my carbon dosing source. (Their claim is that you don't need to use a lot of their product to reduce NO3 and PO4)

I have been using PNS Probio for over 2 months now combined with Elimi NP. I have had a bad case of cyano/dino initally as stated in my earlier posts. (I did a 3 day black out with Flucanazole and problem went away)
For the last month my NO3 reads 0 and my PO4 is down to 0.03 to 0.07. I have not had any green algae on my glass or cyano/dino in my tank. No crazy bacteria blooms either!

I am finally able to keep my PO4 consistently below 0.1 finally without using phosguard. Sorry for the long story, but this is the reason why I use PNS Probio with carbon dosing.

Just this weekend I switched over to using Acetic acid with PNS Probio. I am getting nervous though because my PO4 has crept up switching over to acetic acid since I have not figured out the necessary dosage amount yet.

HTH



I

Any update so for after switching to acetic acid? I’m interested in starting a set up similar to yours to harbor and grow probio in an anoxic chamber in my sump

 

[reefluvrr]

Any update so for after switching to acetic acid? I’m interested in starting a set up similar to yours to harbor and grow probio in an anoxic chamber in my sump

I tried acetic acid for about 1 week. It was not as successful in reducing PO4 levels in my tank. PO4 levels went up to 0.2 and up even though I increased amount of acetic acid each day...

I switched back to Tropic Marin Elimi-NP and my PO4 levels went down to about 0.07-0.1 levels.
Maybe acetic acid will work well in your system. In my tank for whatever reason, Elimi-NP works very well with PNS Probio.

 

[Hal3134]

Will Pro Bio help with cyano?

I dosed Vibrant for about three months to get rid of various algae and it worked. About two months after I ran out of Vibrant the cyano hit with a vengeance.

Ca=480, alk=6.7, mag=1450, no3=1, po4=0.1.

I’m adding alk to bring it up to 8 or 9. I also dose about 15ml of vodka a day into a 300g system.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi, Hal3134. Small world! Are you aware that ProBio is made in Longmont?

I've heard a lot about cyano blooms that occur post-Vibrant treatment. Hard to guess about possible mechanisms since Vibrant doesn't disclose the contents of their product.

We've sold tons of ProBio (through AlgaeBarn) over the last couple years and have heard no reports of it promoting cyano. We've tested it extensively and have never, ever encountered cyano in our trial tanks (maybe that can serve as anecdotal support for this?). But we've seen no direct evidence thus far that ProBio outright kills cyano, either. Honestly, that is something we need to test in the future (as time allows haha!).

Do we believe that the purple non-sulfur bacteria in ProBio (Rhodopseudomonas palustris) can inhibit cyanobacteria? Yes, for two reasons. Firstly, R. palustris synthesizes the antibiotic streptomycin to which cyano exhibits considerable sensitivity. Presumably, this antibiotic activity wouldn't be strong enough to kill cyano outright merely by pouring the prescribed dose of ProBio into the water column; however, in competitive interactions between the two bacteria in close quarters (e.g. fighting for living space), it could give the PNSB a decisive advantage. Secondly, like cyano, PNSB are facultatively heterotrophic. And, they are both nitrogen fixers. By competing for the same resources (organic carbon in a nitrogen-depleted environment), the PNSB could very possibly limit cyano productivity (especially around the redox potential discontinuity beneath the surface layer of the substrate).

If I may ask, which LFS do you visit most frequently? PM me if you'd like for me to leave you a couple sample units there to try out.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I tried acetic acid for about 1 week. It was not as successful in reducing PO4 levels in my tank. PO4 levels went up to 0.2 and up even though I increased amount of acetic acid each day...

I switched back to Tropic Marin Elimi-NP and my PO4 levels went down to about 0.07-0.1 levels.
Maybe acetic acid will work well in your system. In my tank for whatever reason, Elimi-NP works very well with PNS Probio.

Can't believe it took me so long to look into this. I wasn't familiar with that product (Elimi-NP) and am surprised to learn that it is made of unspecified polyalcohols. That's definitely not something I've seen used in the lab to grow PNS bacteria (maybe ethylene glycol would work? lol!). How has this been working for you over the last few months?

 

[coolblueatx]

Following along. I just received my PNSB bottles and will see if this will replace my GFO for PO4 control.

Hoping to hear from OP in an update.

 

[reefluvrr]

Can't believe it took me so long to look into this. I wasn't familiar with that product (Elimi-NP) and am surprised to learn that it is made of unspecified polyalcohols. That's definitely not something I've seen used in the lab to grow PNS bacteria (maybe ethylene glycol would work? lol!). How has this been working for you over the last few months?

Following along. I just received my PNSB bottles and will see if this will replace my GFO for PO4 control.

Hoping to hear from OP in an update.

Happy 2021!!

I have been very successful at keeping my PO4 from 0.09 to 0.05 for the past few months while dosing Elimi-NP. The amount of Elimi-NP being used is about 4.5ml per day. (I am dosing this very differently from their instructions). I could have been a little more patient with Acetic Acid dosing, but I was already dosing over 30ml/day trying to bring down PO4.

My Alkalinity consumption has been steadily increasing as I can see my acros growing nicely.

I am dosing 30ml PNS Probio bacteria with 20ml Yellow SNO once every week to keep my bacteria population up. This helps bring the PO4 level from 0.09 back down to about 0.05 levels.

I have 2 Lyretail and 5 Purple Queen Anthias, 1 Copper Band Butterfly, 1 Algae Blenny, 1 Atlantic Blue Tang, 1 Melanurus Wrasse, 1 Pink Spot Watchmen Goby. Except on weekends, l would feed at least 4 cubes of frozen food daily. I am also dosing 5ml of Easyreef Easyboost and 4ml Easyreef SPS EVO daily. Very pleased with such bioload and feedings to have my PO4 levels where they're at without any GFO.

 

[minus9]

Happy 2021!!

I have been very successful at keeping my PO4 from 0.09 to 0.05 for the past few months while dosing Elimi-NP. The amount of Elimi-NP being used is about 4.5ml per day. (I am dosing this very differently from their instructions). I could have been a little more patient with Acetic Acid dosing, but I was already dosing over 30ml/day trying to bring down PO4.

My Alkalinity consumption has been steadily increasing as I can see my acros growing nicely.

I am dosing 30ml PNS Probio bacteria with 20ml Yellow SNO once every week to keep my bacteria population up. This helps bring the PO4 level from 0.09 back down to about 0.05 levels.

I have 2 Lyretail and 5 Purple Queen Anthias, 1 Copper Band Butterfly, 1 Algae Blenny, 1 Atlantic Blue Tang, 1 Melanurus Wrasse, 1 Pink Spot Watchmen Goby. Except on weekends, l would feed at least 4 cubes of frozen food daily. I am also dosing 5ml of Easyreef Easyboost and 4ml Easyreef SPS EVO daily. Very pleased with such bioload and feedings to have my PO4 levels where they're at without any GFO.

Nice! How did manage to get to 4.5mL a day with Elimi NP? How long did it take you? I think I need to order more Probio and YS.

 

[reefluvrr]

Nice! How did manage to get to 4.5mL a day with Elimi NP? How long did it take you? I think I need to order more Probio and YS.

The instructions for Elimi NP states for the max dosage: "Maximum dose: A daily dose of 0.5 ml per 100 l (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume should not be exceeded"

I slowly raised my dosage amount by 0.2 to 0.5ml every two to three days when I first started trying to figure out how to drop my PO4 levels. I was testing my PO4 levels once or twice daily during this time.
It took me approximately 2 weeks to slowly drop to my desired PO4 levels. You don't want to overdose on Elimi NP because you can get white bacteria build up on your glass and equipments. However, I have not had adverse coral death with my LPS or SPS from using PNS Probio and Elimi NP. (I had lost a lot of corals from overdosing NOPOX and other bacteria source in the past when I had too much white bacteria jelly in the tank before.)

The bacteria in PNS ProBio (Rhodopseudomonas palustris) are rhizobia and have indeed been shown to benefit corals in this manner. It’s too simple to say merely that they fix nitrogen and thereby fertilize the coral’s zoothanthellae. In reality, they do more than that: They actively regulate nitrogen concentrations. This is because they preferentially take up excess nitrogen (whether ammonia, nitrite, nitrate or nitrogenous organic compounds) from the environment. They only fix nitrogen when nitrogen is in extremely short supply. Only makes sense right? Makes more sense energetically to grab a slice from the pizza that’s already on the table than to go make another slice from scratch.

Minus9, let me know if you have any other questions. I started using Easyreef products from seeing the growth in your SPS.--Thanks!

 

[minus9]

The instructions for Elimi NP states for the max dosage: "Maximum dose: A daily dose of 0.5 ml per 100 l (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume should not be exceeded"

I slowly raised my dosage amount by 0.2 to 0.5ml every two to three days when I first started trying to figure out how to drop my PO4 levels. I was testing my PO4 levels once or twice daily during this time.
It took me approximately 2 weeks to slowly drop to my desired PO4 levels. You don't want to overdose on Elimi NP because you can get white bacteria build up on your glass and equipments. However, I have not had adverse coral death with my LPS or SPS from using PNS Probio and Elimi NP. (I had lost a lot of corals from overdosing NOPOX and other bacteria source in the past when I had too much white bacteria jelly in the tank before.)



Minus9, let me know if you have any other questions. I started using Easyreef products from seeing the growth in your SPS.--Thanks!

Yeah, EasyBooster and Evo together is such a great combo. I stopped using Elimi NP because of persistent cyano and didn't want to continue feeding all the bacteria. I'm going to try Probio and yello snow to really try and get my tank balanced, which I don't think it's ever been? I'm also going to add some real reef mud and sand from the keys to add more diversity when it's back in stock. Right now I'm using a few tablespoons of rowaphos to keep my PO4 in check, but I really want to stop using media to control phosphates.
Cheers!

 

[coolblueatx]

Happy 2021!!

I have been very successful at keeping my PO4 from 0.09 to 0.05 for the past few months while dosing Elimi-NP. The amount of Elimi-NP being used is about 4.5ml per day. (I am dosing this very differently from their instructions). I could have been a little more patient with Acetic Acid dosing, but I was already dosing over 30ml/day trying to bring down PO4.

My Alkalinity consumption has been steadily increasing as I can see my acros growing nicely.

I am dosing 30ml PNS Probio bacteria with 20ml Yellow SNO once every week to keep my bacteria population up. This helps bring the PO4 level from 0.09 back down to about 0.05 levels.

I have 2 Lyretail and 5 Purple Queen Anthias, 1 Copper Band Butterfly, 1 Algae Blenny, 1 Atlantic Blue Tang, 1 Melanurus Wrasse, 1 Pink Spot Watchmen Goby. Except on weekends, l would feed at least 4 cubes of frozen food daily. I am also dosing 5ml of Easyreef Easyboost and 4ml Easyreef SPS EVO daily. Very pleased with such bioload and feedings to have my PO4 levels where they're at without any GFO.

Glad to hear you're able to keep your PO4 at such a low level with just PNS Probio and Elimi-NP. Thanks for sharing your experience here. I have been looking at PNS Probio for awhile now. You and @Kenneth Wingerter have really convinced me to give this a try.

If I may ask, do you think I should try dosing PNS Probio more than once a week to see if I can bring down the PO4 to a level I want before going to a weekly maintenance dose?

 

[reefluvrr]

If I may ask, do you think I should try dosing PNS Probio more than once a week to see if I can bring down the PO4 to a level I want before going to a weekly maintenance dose?

I did try dosing like twice a week early on.
However another effective method I found; I would put 30ml of PNS Probio ,10ml of Yellow SNO, and 1 to 2 ml of Elimi-NP into a container and let it mix together and sit for about 10 minutes. (My tank size is about 60 gallons) Then I would pour the cocktail into my display tank. After about 8-10 hours, I would measure my PO4. This dropped my PO4 by quite a bit!--something like 0.12 to 0.06. ( Make sure your NO3 levels is not 0.0, otherwise I would find more bacteria film on my glass and equipment with much less PO4 reduction level)

The challenge for me early on was trying to find a level of Elimi-NP that brought PO4 to a consistent level daily without having too much white film on the sides of my tank. I was too aggressive and not nearly as patient in letting PO4 levels drop slowly. I ended up backing down 0.2ml of Elimi-NP every few days or so until I could no longer see the white bacteria film on my glass until about 3 or 4 days later.

 

[coolblueatx]

I did try dosing like twice a week early on.
However another effective method I found; I would put 30ml of PNS Probio ,10ml of Yellow SNO, and 1 to 2 ml of Elimi-NP into a container and let it mix together and sit for about 10 minutes. (My tank size is about 60 gallons) Then I would pour the cocktail into my display tank. After about 8-10 hours, I would measure my PO4. This dropped my PO4 by quite a bit!--something like 0.12 to 0.06. ( Make sure your NO3 levels is not 0.0, otherwise I would find more bacteria film on my glass and equipment with much less PO4 reduction level)

The challenge for me early on was trying to find a level of Elimi-NP that brought PO4 to a consistent level daily without having too much white film on the sides of my tank. I was too aggressive and not nearly as patient in letting PO4 levels drop slowly. I ended up backing down 0.2ml of Elimi-NP every few days or so until I could no longer see the white bacteria film on my glass until about 3 or 4 days later.

Wow! I think I just got myself into trouble! I tried doing what you did and let a mixture of the PNS Probio and Yellow SNO sit this morning and it only lasted 5 minutes before it stank up the house. I quickly poured it in hoping no one noticed the smell.

My daughter came out (2 hrs later) and asked if a skunk died! She could smell it from her room. Now I'm trying to air the house out before my wife come back from her dental appt!

She's definitely going to kick me and my tank to the garage now! lol.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Wow! I think I just got myself into trouble! I tried doing what you did and let a mixture of the PNS Probio and Yellow SNO sit this morning and it only lasted 5 minutes before it stank up the house. I quickly poured it in hoping no one noticed the smell.

My daughter came out (2 hrs later) and asked if a skunk died! She could smell it from her room. Now I'm trying to air the house out before my wife come back from her dental appt!

She's definitely going to kick me and my tank to the garage now! lol.

Ha! Like a mix of kambucha and beer farts, right? At least corals and dogs seem to love it. You can simply close the mixing bottle to avoid these offending fragrances. The YelloSno is actually partially fermanted by these same bacteria. In fact, depending on temp, they will start to resume fermentation in YelloSno within a few hours (with plenty of fart-like methaneous gasses released); so if you leave a sealed mixing bottle sitting, just make sure you use it before a stink bomb detonates. If the mixture has sat in the bottle long enough for bubbles to begin to evolve, it's more than ready enough to feed out.

 

[coolblueatx]

Ha! Like a mix of kambucha and beer farts, right? At least corals and dogs seem to love it. You can simply close the mixing bottle to avoid these offending fragrances. The YelloSno is actually partially fermanted by these same bacteria. In fact, depending on temp, they will start to resume fermentation in YelloSno within a few hours (with plenty of fart-like methaneous gasses released); so if you leave a sealed mixing bottle sitting, just make sure you use it before a stink bomb detonates. If the mixture has sat in the bottle long enough for bubbles to begin to evolve, it's more than ready enough to feed out.

At least if business is slow from the reefing side, you have a few other areas you can market YelloSno to like replacement for pepper spray or repellent. lol

 

[minus9]

Reef punch!