PNS PROBIO and Carbon dosing

[reefluvrr]

In spite of the good coloration of my Acro's I fail to get any polyp extension on most of them- even when lights are out. This in spite of dosing Aminos, Reefroids etc.

Could your flame angel be picking at your SPS polyps?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi David and thanks for reaching out! I've gotten way off topic in this thread in the past, so in the spirit of keeping focused on reefluvrr's original subject of carbon, I'll stick to that here and address the rest in a PM.

In terms of visible results, you likely may have already read above that these guys undergo a roughly two-week lag phase before entering a log growth cycle (of course, they eventually plateau and enter a stationary phase). During log phase growth you may notice a reduction in both particulate and dissolved organic carbon (detritus pools, yellowing compounds, etc.).

As these guys reduce the BOD, you very possibly could see a smaller fluctuation between daytime and nighttime pH and DO levels (obviously the reverse light cycle 'fuge will help with that as well). On another note, you might like having these microbes in your planted 'fuge, as they are better equipped than other heterotrophs to degrade/consume the carbon in the cellulose-rich detritus that may accumulate at the bottom. The mud will provide a reasonably good anaerobic habitat for them, and under your refugium light they may continue to help regulate pH indirectly by photoassimilating CO2 (which only occurs under anaerobic and photic conditions). Photoassimilation in these guys is on the slow side, but might be sufficient if they "run out" of organic sources in your tank and you're satisfied with the nutrient levels at that time (in other words, you may never need to carbon dose).

I hope that helps, looking forward to addressing the rest very soon!

Ken

 

[reefluvrr]

Hi David and thanks for reaching out! I've gotten way off topic in this thread in the past, so in the spirit of keeping focused on reefluvrr's original subject of carbon

Ken,

Please don't mind sharing whatever thoughts and straying off topic in regards to PNS Probio and YellowSno.
I think you will help the community out more that way.

 

[David S]

Could your flame angel be picking at your SPS polyps?

I have never seen it, but to be honest, it's a possibility.
He does pick at the rock and definitely the glass, but not directly on any colonies.
I do have plenty of fleshy LPS and he's never touched them (I would have noticed). I think if he had a taste for corals, he would have gone after my Scolies, Torches, Elegance or Hammer first.
Here's the thing though; some of my colonies (WD, a Millie) have some polyp extension, while my OG Tort and Maleficent show no extension.
Then too, I'm referring to nighttime. I would assume the polyps would come out as "Tiger" is asleep then.
Also I've had him for nearly 9 years and during that time I had periods of decent polyp extension of my Acros

Ken,

Please don't mind sharing whatever thoughts and straying off topic in regards to PNS Probio and YellowSno.
I think you will help the community out more that way.

Then again, his behaviour could change...but I doubt he's the cause

Hi David and thanks for reaching out! I've gotten way off topic in this thread in the past, so in the spirit of keeping focused on reefluvrr's original subject of carbon, I'll stick to that here and address the rest in a PM.

In terms of visible results, you likely may have already read above that these guys undergo a roughly two-week lag phase before entering a log growth cycle (of course, they eventually plateau and enter a stationary phase). During log phase growth you may notice a reduction in both particulate and dissolved organic carbon (detritus pools, yellowing compounds, etc.).

As these guys reduce the BOD, you very possibly could see a smaller fluctuation between daytime and nighttime pH and DO levels (obviously the reverse light cycle 'fuge will help with that as well). On another note, you might like having these microbes in your planted 'fuge, as they are better equipped than other heterotrophs to degrade/consume the carbon in the cellulose-rich detritus that may accumulate at the bottom. The mud will provide a reasonably good anaerobic habitat for them, and under your refugium light they may continue to help regulate pH indirectly by photoassimilating CO2 (which only occurs under anaerobic and photic conditions). Photoassimilation in these guys is on the slow side, but might be sufficient if they "run out" of organic sources in your tank and you're satisfied with the nutrient levels at that time (in other words, you may never need to carbon dose).

I hope that helps, looking forward to addressing the rest very soon!

Ken

Thanks for the advice Ken.
I will provide feedback, moving forward

 

[David S]

@Kenneth Wingerter
Hi Ken, reefluvrr, and everyone.
So I received the Probio from Algaebarn, along with some Gracilaria, this past Saturday.
Rather than doing a "shotgun" approach of dosing the Probio and growing the macroalgae simultaneously, I began with the Gracilaria to see how it would affect my parameters and then follow up with the Probio.
So my goals were to hopefully reduce the large nighttime PH shift, as well as, maintaining my PO4 levels without the use of my Phosban reactor which runs Rowaphos. This has been very successful at keeping my PO4 levels between 0.03 - 0.05 for years, albeit a pain to administer.
My findings since, yesterday, is that the Gracilaria did not appreciably help the PH shift, which remained, on average, a nightly shift of 0.45.
The macroalgae did seem to soak up the nitrate in my tank. I like to keep it at 5 PPM or higher, and I had to dose quite a bit of NO3 to maintain that minimum level.
The one positive I see is there is less algae on my glass. Normally, I have to clean the glass every day, but after my Saturday cleaning, I did not have to clean the glass until Tuesday.

So yesterday, I began dosing the Probio.
I dosed 45 ml in my 38 gallon tank and discontinued Protein Skimming as per instructions.
While it's way too soon to judge how it affects the corals and fish health, there are some quick observations, I can pass on.
Re overnight PH fluctuation:
The fluctuation last night was 0.38. I can't recall the last time the PH shift was less than 0.40.
Also consider the fact I wasn't skimming.
This is potentially promising, moving forward.
Re NO3:
My NO3 maintained @ 5PPM.
Re PO4:
Just prior to my dosing the Probio, yesterday, I tested my Phosphate level. It was the first time, I tested it since I removed the reactor on Saturday.
The test indicated my Phosphate level had risen to 0.10 - 0.11 PPM" a possible indication that the macroalgae was not adequate in removing the PO4.
So this morning, less than 24 hours after dosing the Probio, I retested the PO4 and found it was 0.08 PPM.
Another potentially promising result.
This brings me to a few questions:
Instructions indicate a weekly dosing. Would I want to discontinue my skimming whenever I dose?
Would it be beneficial to stop the flow, temporarily, to my HOB Refugium and dose part of the Probio in it so the Miracle mud can absorb it more efficiently?
Yesterday, I saw a YouTube cast by @reefdudes where a person had some positive things to say about Dr. Tim's Ecobalance, specifically for treating STN (Vibrio).
Then in a separate R2R thread from last year, I noticed you had suggested that it might be a good complement to Probio, as it purportedly was predominantly a Bacillus Spp. Is that correct?
Thanks
David

 

[reefluvrr]

So this morning, less than 24 hours after dosing the Probio, I retested the PO4 and found it was 0.08 PPM.

I found carbon dosing alongside dosing Probio helped reduce my PO4 more efficiently than just dosing Probio by itself.

Instructions indicate a weekly dosing. Would I want to discontinue my skimming whenever I dose?

After getting a good feel of my bacteria population being pretty stable in my tank, I kept my skimmer on. However, in the beginning, I feel it is more efficient to turn the skimmer off.

Yesterday, I saw a YouTube cast by @reefdudes where a person had some positive things to say about Dr. Tim's Ecobalance, specifically for treating STN (Vibrio).
Then in a separate R2R thread from last year, I noticed you had suggested that it might be a good complement to Probio, as it purportedly was predominantly a Bacillus Spp. Is that correct?

I will also wait to hear what Ken recommends.

Hope this helps!

 

[minus9]

I'm doing a combo of different bacteria every week. PNS Probio, Prodibio, MB7 and Eco Balance. Sometimes I double up a day apart. Tomorrow I'll dose EB, then Saturday or Sunday I'll do PNS / Yello Sno. Plus, I can really dial in my PO4 by how long I run my fuge lighting schedule. Currently running 14hrs and my PO4 is 0.08 and I'm still feeding heavily, like always. I will say that when I dosed the right amount of PNS, my phosphates came down and they have pretty much stayed below 0.1

 

[David S]

I found carbon dosing alongside dosing Probio helped reduce my PO4 more efficiently than just dosing Probio by itself.

I know a good deal of people have mentioned, in this thread, that they use Elimi NP. I tried using it about a year ago, as an alternative to running the PO4 reactor. I found it to be inconsistent and ultimately, quite ineffective, as my Phosphate levels increased. At the time, though, my refugium was dark. Now I'm hoping, a combination of the Probio and and the Gracilaria will keep the PO4 in check.

After getting a good feel of my bacteria population being pretty stable in my tank, I kept my skimmer on. However, in the beginning, I feel it is more efficient to turn the skimmer off.

Thanks will do

I will also wait to hear what Ken recommends.

Hope this helps!

Here is a link to the thread

Dr Tim's Eco balance bacteria

Hello! I was wondering if anyone knows what species of bacteria are living in this bottle? If not I'll contact Dr. Tim's Aquatics. I am trying to decide between this or pns priobio after having run UV for dinos and wanting to re-establish my water column diversity

www.reef2reef.com

 

[reefluvrr]

. Now I'm hoping, a combination of the Probio and and the Gracilaria will keep the PO4 in check.

I want to know how well this will work out for you. Please keep us posted!

 

[David S]

I want to know how well this will work out for you. Please keep us posted!

Will do
So far so good
It's been a week since I removed my reactor and my PO4 has dropped to 0.04 based on yesterday's test.
From prior experience, not running a reactor for a similar period of time would have resulted in a Phosphate increase to the 0.15 - 0.20 range

 

[Biologic]

Hey @Kenneth Wingerter,

Any advice you can give? Chemistry controlling abiotic factors is pushed us very far in this hobby. Biology and biochemistry is the missing link in this hobby to push us beyond.

I just picked up from Algae Barn PNS, PNSBio, Ocean Magic, Pods. I run a ZeoVit system with good results for nutrient control and coral health. Great balance of coral color saturation, healthy growth, and great recovery for stressful situations like dips and injury. I have no trouble hitting absolute ZERO in the way of PO4/NO3 (Hanna ULR Phosphorous in parts per billion), causing dinos to bloom on sand and rocks. Ugh. I am working on trying to balance that.

I use a Zeolite reactor, cycled on/off for 3 hours. I assume this advice from ZeoVit is for 1.) not aggressively remove too NH4+ much from the water column 2) to cycle between aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. I am dosing their acetate(? likely from the smell of it) albeit haphazardly with carbon dosing amounts--maybe a source for my issues with phosphates going too low??? I dose their bacterium ZeoBak and Micrbobacter7, because I am fighting dinos. My rational is that more diversity, more better. Right? Hence, me picking up PNS for diversity, plus the great affordable nutritional content it provides to corals. I am working on raising phosphate to 0.02 tp 0.03 ppm between feeding of pellets and perhaps dosing sodium phosphate to manually adjust to the target.

Aside from dino issues. I am struggling with pH issues, which is known to carbon dosing systems. I've ruled out as much cofounding abiotic variables. Keeping a stable alkalinity of 7.8 dKH using Tropic Marin All-For-Reef (a calcium acetate product). Calibrated pH probe, confirmed pH with basic color change test kit, running skimmer air from outside, running a chaeto reactor on reverse light cycle (not recommended for ZeoVit system, but using it to rule out remaining CO2), proper surface agitation. pH will only raise above 7.9 with the lights on, hitting a maximum of 8.1 with the lights on. The presence of main light drives my pH rise or fall.

Biology can present its own cofounding issue, but if you'd have to offer any advice on my pH issue and plummeting PO4 levels? I feel like they are discretely tied to each other in a biotic way, since I have eliminated as many abiotic variables. So the only thing I can think of what's adding additional H+ ions into the system is the organic carbon and pellet foods I am adding to the system driving pH down. My theory is decomposition of organic molecules is likely driving my pH down. What are your thoughts?

I love PNS and PNSBio and the corals immediately stretch their polyps for it!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hey @Kenneth Wingerter,

Any advice you can give? Chemistry controlling abiotic factors is pushed us very far in this hobby. Biology and biochemistry is the missing link in this hobby to push us beyond.


I love PNS and PNSBio and the corals immediately stretch their polyps for it!

I agree!

And I never get tired of hearing how people's corals respond to these products. Thank you!

Yes, there is a lot of evidence to indicate that acetate is a favored source of carbon for this species. I've seen very rapid growth in this strain with acetate as its sole carbon source. However, when deprived of an organic source (it prefers heterotrophy, and photoheterotrophy to be exact), it also can utilize inorganic sources such as CO2 (it is capable of autotrophy). I'd point out that autotrophic growth is slower (don't quote me on that, but I believe I read it's around 25% of photoheterotrophic productivity). Promoting autotrophic growth in this species requires that you provide ample anaerobic living space (ceramics in passive flow, deep sand/mud beds, etc.).

These guys love to eat coral mucus, and corals shed a lot of it into the water column, so it would take a lot of these bacteria to deplete all organic carbon and revert to using CO2--but it is possible. In the very least, by cutting the carbon dosing, you would deprive the obligate heterotrophs (many other bacteria in your tank) of food and thus reduce microbial phosphorus consumption overall; hard to say what impact that would have on your dino growth, though. But bear in mind that most dinoflagellates are facultative heterotrophs (some are even obligate heterotrophs), so your carbon dosing could actually be giving them a boost. I don't say with certainty that is what's happening in your case, but it's a possibility worthy of some consideration.

As long as there is a steady import of organic carbon, especially in the form of acetate, these bacteria would actually just keep generating CO2 (like the other heterotrophs). Perhaps cut the carbon dosing and observe the impact on pH (and dinos)?

The strong influence of diel cycles on your pH sounds like your CO2 flux is related to zoothanthellate respiration (i.e. specifically at night when consumption exceeds productivity). Not as much one can do about that directly, but perhaps applying even more aeration (including in the sump) would help to de-gass.

I hope at least some of that helps!

 

[Biologic]

I agree!

And I never get tired of hearing how people's corals respond to these products. Thank you!

Yes, there is a lot of evidence to indicate that acetate is a favored source of carbon for this species. I've seen very rapid growth in this strain with acetate as its sole carbon source. However, when deprived of an organic source (it prefers heterotrophy, and photoheterotrophy to be exact), it also can utilize inorganic sources such as CO2 (it is capable of autotrophy). I'd point out that autotrophic growth is slower (don't quote me on that, but I believe I read it's around 25% of photoheterotrophic productivity). Promoting autotrophic growth in this species requires that you provide ample anaerobic living space (ceramics in passive flow, deep sand/mud beds, etc.).

These guys love to eat coral mucus, and corals shed a lot of it into the water column, so it would take a lot of these bacteria to deplete all organic carbon and revert to using CO2--but it is possible. In the very least, by cutting the carbon dosing, you would deprive the obligate heterotrophs (many other bacteria in your tank) of food and thus reduce microbial phosphorus consumption overall; hard to say what impact that would have on your dino growth, though. But bear in mind that most dinoflagellates are facultative heterotrophs (some are even obligate heterotrophs), so your carbon dosing could actually be giving them a boost. I don't say with certainty that is what's happening in your case, but it's a possibility worthy of some consideration.

As long as there is a steady import of organic carbon, especially in the form of acetate, these bacteria would actually just keep generating CO2 (like the other heterotrophs). Perhaps cut the carbon dosing and observe the impact on pH (and dinos)?

The strong influence of diel cycles on your pH sounds like your CO2 flux is related to zoothanthellate respiration (i.e. specifically at night when consumption exceeds productivity). Not as much one can do about that directly, but perhaps applying even more aeration (including in the sump) would help to de-gass.

I hope at least some of that helps!

Oh I apologize, I should clarify. Your bacteria product has no connection to my pH problems. This problem existed long before I started using PNS. Everything you said is certainly true for many bacterial supplements or bacteria found in floating around naturally.

The only thing I could on is a CO2 scrubber. I live in an area of fresh air and free of traffic. I’d like to see what my actual CO2 is really in the air and in the home. Maybe it’s just the decomposition of living in swampy areas.

 

[Biologic]

Also All For Reef is Calcium Formate! My mistake!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Oh I apologize, I should clarify. Your bacteria product has no connection to my pH problems. This problem existed long before I started using PNS. Everything you said is certainly true for many bacterial supplements or bacteria found in floating around naturally.

The only thing I could on is a CO2 scrubber. I live in an area of fresh air and free of traffic. I’d like to see what my actual CO2 is really in the air and in the home. Maybe it’s just the decomposition of living in swampy areas.

Oh, I knew you weren't connecting these bacteria and the pH issue. But you did get me thinking, and it's possible that they could contribute somewhat to gross CO2 production (I learn a lot from these discussions just trying to answer all these great questions haha). To elaborate on what I was saying above, these bacteria are both aerobic and anaerobic as well as heterotrophic and autotrophic; they prefer anaerobic conditions and heterotrophy. When they're in the presence of oxygen and organic carbon, they "eat" and respire, just like the heterotrophs we generally target when carbon dosing. That does generate CO2 of course (and consume O2).

Thankfully, they rarely respire as they live predominantly in anaerobic areas--all the while consuming organics and diverting some of this BOD from the aerobes that do respire (again, obtaining energy from light instead of through the oxidation of organic substances). Of course, much of the carbon they sequester will eventually be respired (by a coral that eats them, for example). So I have to wonder if there really is an ultimate net decrease of CO2 production when using these bacteria? My GUESS is that there is, so long as there is some export of bacterial biomass via skimming. They might remove some CO2 directly too during autotrophy (but again would have to be exported for that to mean anything in the greater scheme of things).

I hope that wasn't even more confusing lol. Fun challenges to work out, right?

 

[s_tempest]

I recently got ProBio & YelloSno, and before I use them I’d like to put out an idea here.
I have a 100g tank with 30g sump. The sump has holders for two socks; I use a sock in the upstream one and keep a filter basket full of rubble in the second. With carbon dosing, skimmer & gfo in a reactor, I hold at 15-20 ppm NO3 and .05 - .1 ppm PO4. These aren’t bad numbers, but I’d like to feed a bit heavier and see the values stay similar if not decrease a bit. That’s what has me interested in ProBio.
Instead of ceramic bricks or plates in the sump, what about taking the second sock chamber and filling it with those MarinePure 1.5“ balls? Sphere stacking would still leave lots of flow, but I can also see the balls’ interior going anoxic to support these bacteria.
Any thoughts?

 

[jnvd3b]

I recently got ProBio & YelloSno, and before I use them I’d like to put out an idea here.
I have a 100g tank with 30g sump. The sump has holders for two socks; I use a sock in the upstream one and keep a filter basket full of rubble in the second. With carbon dosing, skimmer & gfo in a reactor, I hold at 15-20 ppm NO3 and .05 - .1 ppm PO4. These aren’t bad numbers, but I’d like to feed a bit heavier and see the values stay similar if not decrease a bit. That’s what has me interested in ProBio.
Instead of ceramic bricks or plates in the sump, what about taking the second sock chamber and filling it with those MarinePure 1.5“ balls? Sphere stacking would still leave lots of flow, but I can also see the balls’ interior going anoxic to support these bacteria.
Any thoughts?

Do you have sand in the display?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I recently got ProBio & YelloSno, and before I use them I’d like to put out an idea here.
I have a 100g tank with 30g sump. The sump has holders for two socks; I use a sock in the upstream one and keep a filter basket full of rubble in the second. With carbon dosing, skimmer & gfo in a reactor, I hold at 15-20 ppm NO3 and .05 - .1 ppm PO4. These aren’t bad numbers, but I’d like to feed a bit heavier and see the values stay similar if not decrease a bit. That’s what has me interested in ProBio.
Instead of ceramic bricks or plates in the sump, what about taking the second sock chamber and filling it with those MarinePure 1.5“ balls? Sphere stacking would still leave lots of flow, but I can also see the balls’ interior going anoxic to support these bacteria.
Any thoughts?

I think you're correct. A good analogy would be with rubble and gravel, materials that we generally believe to be inferior to finer grained materials (i.e. sand/mud) for supporting an anoxic zone. It seems that chunkier materials actually provide excellent microhabitat for anaerobes (at least within the core), even when water flow around the particle is relatively strong. Maybe they even like the flow around the exterior of the particle, as it efficiently carries away wastes and delivers more nutrients. This study suggests that's at least true for denitrifying bacteria in general (including PNS bacteria): https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3c...10.1320731497.1612138666-583202434.1612138666 It's a long paper, but at least check out the sections on denitrification.

 

[s_tempest]

Do you have sand in the display?

Yes but not deep. 1” or so.

 

[jnvd3b]

Yes but not deep. 1” or so.

I thought that is where PNSB thrived was just under the sandbed surface, where there is some light.

I don’t think it would be ‘bad’ to seed marinepure with PNSB but seems like marinepure could be seeded with almost any bacteria.