PNS PROBIO and Carbon dosing

[reefluvrr]

She's definitely going to kick me and my tank to the garage now! lol.

You can start doing that side business of "Probio Gas Spray" from the garage as well.

Let us know how your PO4 levels work out for you via stink bomb method....

 

[coolblueatx]

You can start doing that side business of "Probio Gas Spray" from the garage as well.

Let us know how your PO4 levels work out for you via stink bomb method....

So I did 20ml PNS and about 10ml of the YellowSNO this morning. I have an IM 20 peninsula. I measured around 5pm and it went up .02. I measure PO4 and Alk every day around that time. I only started dosing the past weekend so maybe I need a little more time for it to work.

Now I don't know if I should dose daily or maybe skip a couple of days. What do you think?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

So I did 20ml PNS and about 10ml of the YellowSNO this morning. I have an IM 20 peninsula. I measured around 5pm and it went up .02. I measure PO4 and Alk every day around that time. I only started dosing the past weekend so maybe I need a little more time for it to work.

Now I don't know if I should dose daily or maybe skip a couple of days. What do you think?

I think you're doing everything right so far, just takes a bit of time for the bacteria to establish themselves. Lots of variables apply, but my own experience as well as published literature suggest that it generally takes about 10-15 days for these guys to adjust to full seawater before entering full growth phase (ProBio is cultured under freshwater conditions). Oddly, in a few cases, I've seen it totally go to town a day or so after the first dose--can never predict exactly how it'll behave in a given system. But 10-15 seems pretty much the norm.

Neither of these products have appreciable amounts of PO4, but the YelloSno of course contains some phosphorus (as any organic matter does) and may be have contributed to the small spike you observed. You could actually increase the ProBio a bit; but (in considering the possible sources of phosphorus) you believe the YelloSno was the culprit, you could ease that back a bit (and/or skip a couple days), at least until phosphates are where you want them.

That's awesome that you run tests at the same time every day. I wish I had that kind of discipline!

 

[reefluvrr]

but my own experience as well as published literature suggest that it generally takes about 10-15 days for these guys to adjust to full seawater before entering full growth phase

Wow! I was going to say that it took me about two weeks to notice the effect of PO4 dropping on a consistent basis when I first started this process.

So I did 20ml PNS and about 10ml of the YellowSNO this morning. I have an IM 20 peninsula. I measured around 5pm and it went up .02. I measure PO4 and Alk every day around that time. I only started dosing the past weekend so maybe I need a little more time for it to work.

I also thought I read somewhere that it also takes a little while for Elimi-NP to grow out the good bacteria. That was why I was going to say about two weeks also.

Did you also started dosing Elimi-NP or any other carbon source last weekend?

How much Carbon source did you add into your mixture of PNS and YellowSNO this morning? I am not sure if you did or not? I had really good drops in PO4 when I did add Elimi-NP with my mixture of PNS and YellowSNO.

Also, early on I turned off my skimmer for about 5 hours right after putting in the mixture into the tank. Just make sure your pH doesn't go too low as it is a sign of low oxygen in your tank.

What is your NO3 level?

 

[coolblueatx]

I think you're doing everything right so far, just takes a bit of time for the bacteria to establish themselves. Lots of variables apply, but my own experience as well as published literature suggest that it generally takes about 10-15 days for these guys to adjust to full seawater before entering full growth phase (ProBio is cultured under freshwater conditions). Oddly, in a few cases, I've seen it totally go to town a day or so after the first dose--can never predict exactly how it'll behave in a given system. But 10-15 seems pretty much the norm.

Thanks for the feedback. I figure it would take some time for it to really get going. Unless you have a better suggestions, I think I'll try dosing PNS Probio every other day for the next week and see.

I don't really blame the Yello Sno for the PO4. I think it just need more time for the bacteria to get to full strength.

I did read early in this thread (or another) that you suggested adding a little PNS Probio to the food mixture. Everyday I put together a mixture of freshly hatched baby brines, 1/2 tsp of salmon eggs delight and Zu Feast from rusalty.com and a small frozen chunk of mysis and chunk of LRS frozen.

This week I've been adding about 1ml of PNS Probio into the food mixture. The mixture sits almost the entire day. They get 4 little feedings each day.

I also thought I read somewhere that it also takes a little while for Elimi-NP to grow out the good bacteria. That was why I was going to say about two weeks also.

Did you also started dosing Elimi-NP or any other carbon source last weekend?

How much Carbon source did you add into your mixture of PNS and YellowSNO this morning? I am not sure if you did or not? I had really good drops in PO4 when I did add Elimi-NP with my mixture of PNS and YellowSNO.

Also, early on I turned off my skimmer for about 5 hours right after putting in the mixture into the tank. Just make sure your pH doesn't go too low as it is a sign of low oxygen in your tank.

What is your NO3 level?

I do not have Elimi-NP (yet). I dose TM All For Reef for Alk and I believe that has a carbon source. I was thinking maybe with that, it may benefit PNS Probio bacteria also.

I'll give it a few weeks and see. I may get Elimi-NP if I don't see too much improvement. I run a very small glass skimmer in the back chamber and didn't turn that off. I'll try to remember to turn it off next time I dose.

I have not noticed anything different with my pH this week. It's consistently been around 8.1 during the day and then drops to 7.8 at night. It's been like that for a long time so nothing unusual so far. I'll keep it in mind though.

My NO3 has been between the 25 and 50 color bar in the test. It's been in that range for almost a year now. I don't have any big algae outbreak. Some patches of hair algae but I'm comfortable with just plucking them out manually. Honestly I rather have a few patches then having it NO3 zero out and deal with dinos or cyano.

I still would like to bring it down and be around the 10-15 range if I can.

 

[coolblueatx]

Tested PO4 today and it was 0.01 lower than yesterday. At least it didn't go up.

I did dosed 15ml this morning. Didn't change any other routine so that's a good sign. Still too early to tell but hoping this will work out.

 

[minus9]

How long are people keeping their skimmers off when using Probio? Just curious.

 

[reefluvrr]

In the beginning, I would keep my skimmer off for about 5 hours. I think that is PSXerholic does when he doses bacteria.
Now that my system has been stable, I do not turn off my skimmer when I dose Probio. I have been doing this for about a month now.

 

[minus9]

In the beginning, I would keep my skimmer off for about 5 hours. I think that is PSXerholic does when he doses bacteria.
Now that my system has been stable, I do not turn off my skimmer when I dose Probio. I have been doing this for about a month now.

Thanks! I usually turn mine off for about 4 or 5 hours, usually 4. I also realized that I was way under the recommended dose, so hopefully my correction will make a difference? I'm adding my first dose of yello sno tomorrow.

 

[reefluvrr]

I'm adding my first dose of yello sno tomorrow.

I would mix the Probio and Yello Sno together. Ken mentioned that Probio needs vitamin B which can be found in Yello Sno to help grow. Otherwise you may have to find another source of Vitamin B.

 

[minus9]

I would mix the Probio and Yello Sno together. Ken mentioned that Probio needs vitamin B which can be found in Yello Sno to help grow. Otherwise you may have to find another source of Vitamin B.

I thought you dose them a day apart, well at least that's what I thought I read on the Hydrospace site?

 

[reefluvrr]

I thought you dose them a day apart, well at least that's what I thought I read on the Hydrospace site?

I have been dosing them together to get more bacterial 'growth' from my PNS Probio for nutrient reduction purpose.
Otherwise you can dose them separately.

 

[minus9]

I have been dosing them together to get more bacterial 'growth' from my PNS Probio for nutrient reduction purpose.
Otherwise you can dose them separately.

Cool, that's my ultimate goal, so I'll mix them together next time.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Wow! I was going to say that it took me about two weeks to notice the effect of PO4 dropping on a consistent basis when I first started this process.

Was playing around with some new stuff and couldn't help but think of this part of the thread. Attached are two images to kind of show what I'm talking about. In the first, I added ProBio to a jug full of a marine nutrient medium of my own making. The image shows an un-inoculated greenish container on the left (the medium is clear, except that the B vitamin complex tints the water yellow-green) and to the right a container that has been inoculated with ProBio (9 days). In the second image, you see two jars, both filled with marine broth 2216. The one on the left is un-inoculated, whereas the one to the right has been inoculated with a relative of the bacteria in PNS ProBio, Rhodospirillum rubrum (also 9 days).

Point is, I was mildly surprised at how consistent the lag phase is when transferring freshwater inocula to saltwater media. Even the related bacterium behaved similarly (it too went from a freshwater to a marine medium). As "usual" in both cases, it didn't look like anything was going to happen the first week, then boom. Yes, both took 9 days, a bit shorter than the 10-15 days I normally anticipate in an aquarium--but these were cultivated at 88.5 F, so pretty much as scheduled! Hope that all makes sense, thought some of you would find this interesting.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I have been dosing them together to get more bacterial 'growth' from my PNS Probio for nutrient reduction purpose.
Otherwise you can dose them separately.

Exactly! We really just suggest alternate dosing with the assumption that many will use ProBio as a coral food; switching just helps spread out the feedings between ProBio and YelloSno. On the other hand, there's no drawback to using them concurrently. All depends on your goals, maintenance routine, etc.

 

[jnvd3b]

This is an interesting thread, lots of good info here.

If I have a system with a remote refugium (sand/mud and calupera prolifera/gracialara) one would think this is the perfect area to add the bacteria as there are areas of low oxygen coupled with light.

However if another goal is to feed the corals, do these bacteria naturally make there way to the (separate) frag system or should I be separately dosing there as well?? From what I have read on this thread and other articles on the PNSB they would actually live/populate inside the coral tissue so I guess just trying to decide which area of my ‘system’ I should be adding the PNSB/yellow snow to; or if I should do both.

 

[reefluvrr]

I guess just trying to decide which area of my ‘system’ I should be adding the PNSB/yellow snow to; or if I should do both.

Why not try alternating dosing from one zone to another when you dose. If it were me, I probably do a big dose into the main tank and the refugium to get things jump started. Then you could dose half in fuge and remaining half in display tank as an idea.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I think reefluvrr said it best. For ProBio, it may be ideal to try dosing in various parts of the system (on the other hand, I'd always just add the YelloSno right into the main tank). Ultimately, I think the 'fuge would be a great place for the bacteria to live (likely plenty of organics and an anoxic sand bed + light, as you said). If you can get it to form a biofilm just under the surface of the mud, it'll constantly produce motile daughter cells that will swim into the plankton and "make their way" across the rest of the system; some of these will rejoin the film, though some will get eaten by corals, some get removed by the skimmer (and export nutrients), etc.

 

[jnvd3b]

I think reefluvrr said it best. For ProBio, it may be ideal to try dosing in various parts of the system (on the other hand, I'd always just add the YelloSno right into the main tank). Ultimately, I think the 'fuge would be a great place for the bacteria to live (likely plenty of organics and an anoxic sand bed + light, as you said). If you can get it to form a biofilm just under the surface of the mud, it'll constantly produce motile daughter cells that will swim into the plankton and "make their way" across the rest of the system; some of these will rejoin the film, though some will get eaten by corals, some get removed by the skimmer (and export nutrients), etc.

Great!

 

[David S]

Hi @Kenneth Wingerter. Recently, I saw a write-up of your PNS products by Jake Adams as well as an interview you had with Scott Anderson on YouTube.
Then by coincidence, I noticed, while placing an order with Algaebarn for some Red Ogo, that they carry your products, as well.
I decided to get the Probio product.
I should receive it by Saturday, but since there is very little anecdotal evidence of what to expect in terms of a visible change I was hoping you can guide me, in that respect.
To that end, I will give a history of my reef.
I should point out, that my primary goal is for potential food for my corals. My nutrient levels are fine.
PO4 levels between .02 - .04.
I dose Potassium Nitrate to keep my Nitrate levels to at least 5PPM.
I know you mentioned about 2 PPM being optimal for NO3 but I found slightly elevated levels of it literally resurrected two of my Goni's (within 1 day). I also have a Gorgonian (Gorgonians and Sponges always withered away in my tank) which is doing well - in spite of my Flame Angel always pecking at it. Also my comments below regarding macroalgae.
So basically, I have a 38 gallon tank mixed reef" with lots of Acro's.
I have an HOB refugium and Protein skimmer. The skimmer is run from 9:30PM - 10AM.
The fuge is currently being run dark with Miracle Mud.
I also dose individual elements, as per the Reefmoonshiner program, for nearly 7 months. I believe this could be the reason (knock on wood) I haven't experienced any STN in any of my Acro colonies over the last few months. As a matter of fact, STN reversed in at least two colonies, which now appear to be healthy.
Here are what I consider the two primary issues in my tank.
Issue 1- I get large nightly swings in my PH on the order of 0.5+ (8.0 - 8.5).
That is the reason I ordered the Gracilaria (the Probio was an afterthought) to run it on a reverse schedule.
In the past, I've had mixed results using Chaeto - explosive growth followed by no growth and slowly withering away.
However, that was when I had low NO3 levels. I suspect that with higher Nitrate levels, I will be able to grow out the Ogo and hopefully reduce the nightly CO2.
Issue 2 - In spite of the good coloration of my Acro's I fail to get any polyp extension on most of them- even when lights are out. This in spite of dosing Aminos, Reefroids etc.
To this end I'm hoping the Probio will prove advantageous.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.