Raising Alkalinity with baking soda questions

[EW_Fish]

Any recommended products to adjust all 3 with the Reef Builder? I don't know which way to go about fixing this as everyone has a different recommendation lol.

There will always be different recommendations. Everyone has their own opinion on products. I think the test kits listed above are pretty much the ones you want to use. API, Salifert, & I use red sea. I tend to like their products. 2 part dosing would be your best bet at this time and hand dose mag.

 

[Ocho Cinco]

There will always be different recommendations. Everyone has their own opinion on products. I think the test kits listed above are pretty much the ones you want to use. API, Salifert, & I use red sea. I tend to like their products. 2 part dosing would be your best bet at this time and hand dose mag.

Ya I understand that. Those are the test kits I have. Would the Seachem Kalkwasser work as the other part to add CA? Any MG product recommendations? Seachem has one as well.

 

[Railcar79]

I use calcium chloride Oakland, and magnesium chloride/sulfate from BRS

 

[mike007]

2 part additives are what most people use. You can buy In bulk from Drs. Foster & Smith or dulk reef supply. In the long run they will save you money.You can manually dose or get a dosing pump which is preferred method.

 

[Ocho Cinco]

2 part additives are what most people use. You can buy In bulk from Drs. Foster & Smith or dulk reef supply. In the long run they will save you money.You can manually dose or get a dosing pump which is preferred method.

What can I add with the Reef Builder to make my dosing complete?

So this (BRS 2 Part Calcium & Alkalinity Total Package - Bulk - Bulk Reef Supply) would probably cover everything?

I added Seachem Reef Builder today (day 3) about 2 hours ago. I tested again (no sure if it is accurate 2 hours after dosing), here are my results:

ALK: 7
CA: 340
MG:1350

I tested today before I added the 3rd does and got this:
ALK: 5.4
CA: 360
MG: 1140

 

[mcarroll]

Brightwell is my favorite since the instructions on the package are complete and correct and you can find it lots of places.

But really anything that's listed here so you can make correct adjustments is fine:
http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

If you choose DIY ingredients then it's even more crucial that you do some reading to understand what you are doing more completely. I would next add this to your list of info to digest.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

-Matt

 

[Ocho Cinco]

Brightwell is my favorite since the instructions on the package are complete and correct and you can find it lots of places.

But really anything that's listed here so you can make correct adjustments is fine:
Reef Chemistry Calculator

If you choose DIY ingredients then it's even more crucial that you do some reading to understand what you are doing more completely. I would next add this to your list of info to digest.
An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

-Matt

Ok I see what your saying. In that case I think I will stick with the Reef Builder/Seachem products since I already have it. In addition to that I will pick up the Reef Advantage Calcium and Reef Advantage Magnesium. I did read that article, It gave me a better understanding of how all 3 work but I think I will need to read it a few more times to fully understand it :angel:.

Game Plan:
1. Pick Up Reef Advantage Calcium and Reef Advantage Magnesium.
2. Raise Magnesium to about 1400 first.
3. Dose Reef Builder and Calcium together slowly until I get to the correct level (testing daily).
4. Once at the correct amount, test to see how much is used up daily/weekly and dose the needed amount to raise back to correct level.
-Shooting for the following levels: ALK: 10, CA:440 and MAG: 1400 (all Approx)
-On the reef chemistry calculator, what does this mean exactly,
Dosing CA Dosing ALK

Balanced Alkalinity is: 3.95 meq/l at 440 ppm

[TD="colspan: 2"] Balanced Calcium is: 432 ppm at 3.57 meq/l [/TD]

Is the TSP amount the Reef Chemistry Calculator provides to raise to the desired amount supposed to be added slowly? That I the amount that will raise the level to the desired amount not counting consumption in between dosing days, correct?

Does this plan sound correct or is there anything else I'm missing?

Thanks for all the help so far!!!

 

[mike007]

Yes the brs 2 part will work for you.You will also need to dose magnesium. Using the bulk additives will save you money over the name brand stuff. Sounds like you are way out of balance with the calcium being that low. You need to manually dose so you can get alk. up to 8-10 dkh and ca.around 420-425. Once you do this then you need to stop dosing for 3 days and calculate what your consumption rate is then you will know how much you will need to dose per day to keep these levels stable.

 

[mcarroll]

First, I would get your units of alkalinity consistent so you don't confuse me. I like meq/L because that's what a lot of the good articles refer to, so it makes it simpler to follow along. (All these links are pretty deep, so I liked to make it as simple for myself as possible.) It's also a sensible scale...in proportion with metric like ppm. But if you like dKH, just make sure to set the Reef Chemistry Calculator to poop out results in dKH too.

As the first link earlier mentioned, Ca, alkalinity and Mg are all needed in specific proportions, so that's what the Reef Chemistry Calculator is calculating for you. If you adjust your calcium to my preferred target of 420 ppm, for example, you will be guided to (IIRC) adjust alkalinity to 2.97 meq/L...which is 3.0 meq/L for practical purposes. 1325 is my target for Mg.

And BTW, using what you have is an excellent place to start. You may never need to switch, but it's never too late if you eventually decide that budget or other considerations have changed. It's not like you're married to your dosing solution! LOL.

-Matt

 

[Railcar79]

I put some kalk in my ATO months ago, and haven't added since, and my dkh stays between 9.9 and 10.2, calcium 460-500. I dose mag, 1 time a month - month and a half. 1260-1350

 

[Ocho Cinco]

First, I would get your units of alkalinity consistent so you don't confuse me. I like meq/L because that's what a lot of the good articles refer to, so it makes it simpler to follow along. (All these links are pretty deep, so I liked to make it as simple for myself as possible.) It's also a sensible scale...in proportion with metric like ppm. But if you like dKH, just make sure to set the Reef Chemistry Calculator to poop out results in dKH too.

As the first link earlier mentioned, Ca, alkalinity and Mg are all needed in specific proportions, so that's what the Reef Chemistry Calculator is calculating for you. If you adjust your calcium to my preferred target of 420 ppm, for example, you will be guided to (IIRC) adjust alkalinity to 2.97 meq/L...which is 3.0 meq/L for practical purposes. 1325 is my target for Mg.

And BTW, using what you have is an excellent place to start. You may never need to switch, but it's never too late if you eventually decide that budget or other considerations have changed. It's not like you're married to your dosing solution! LOL.

-Matt

Haha I actually was thinking about going with meq/L as thats what most use. We will go that route form now on.

So if I were to sent my CA at 420 the calculator is telling me my ALK should be set to 3.0 meg/L? Is that what the balanced number are? What does IIRC mean?

Yes true...I going to go with Seachem for now then possibly swith to BRS.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

BAKING SODA & THE REEF AQUARIUM - REEFEDITION

 

[Bernardhny]

My Test Kits

I use Hanna for Cal, Phosphate, Alk and Red Sea for Mag. I love the Hanna kits, I know some people don't like the Calcium and Alk but I found them to be accurate and easy to use.

Bernard

 

[Ron Reefman]

You should see what it takes to raise it from 5.2 to 6.2 and add that today. Then re-test and figure out what it takes to raise it another 1 DKH max that day. Third day test again and add alk solution... Repeat until you hit the target. Then test in 2 days to see the drop and add as needed daily to keep it where you want it.

In other words, don't calculate the full amount unless you will equally add it over 4 days to get to target...

+1 This is the way to do it.

And I use API kits for alk & cal and every once and awhile double check it using my Salifert kits. They always come back within 10 to 15ppm on cal and within 1.0 on alk. And over time the errors always seem to be about the same. Obviously I can only use Salifert for mag. Alk between 8-9, cal between 400-440 and mag between 1350-1450.

 

[Ocho Cinco]

+1 This is the way to do it.

And I use API kits for alk & cal and every once and awhile double check it using my Salifert kits. They always come back within 10 to 15ppm on cal and within 1.0 on alk. And over time the errors always seem to be about the same. Obviously I can only use Salifert for mag. Alk between 8-9, cal between 400-440 and mag between 1350-1450.

Thanks! I'm aiming for those same levels.

How come the reef calculator and the back of Seachem products differ so much?
Per Seachem's advantage magnesium I would add 1 TSP per 20 gallons. For each TSP I add they state it will raise my MAG 5 mg/L(PPM). So I would have to add 10 TSP to raise MAG from 1350 (current) to 1400. Reef Chemistry Calculator states I would have to add 42.7 TSP to raise it to 1400. These are obviously way different. Did I do something wrong here?

On another note, I added Reef Builder last night. I tested 2 hours after and it raised my ALK from 5.4 to 7 and MAG from 1140 to 1350 but lowered my CA by 20 ppm. I feel like with this increase in MAG, that product is taking care of it for me?

 

[CaliO]

Sorry to Highjack but are you my super ego. I was just going to post this same thing..


---Looking for possible causes and solutions...---

Back story: Set up by combining established tanks June 1st 2013, Cycled and live stocked started to add July 1st 2013... Tank was doing great, stable until late December 2013, when I started using reef frenzy as a main/only food source (friends reccomendation). Within 2 weeks Algea bloomed and I stopped feeding frenzy.. Went into overtime on cleaning the aglea problem... Did multiple WC, blowing rocks off, cleaning filters, ect... Algea problem is over. My husbandry is stable and well maintained. I could tell you how much nitrates I create and export weekly. Could normally tell you all my parmeters without testing!. I tell you this in hopes I don't get a million noob questions. No offense intended.

I use reef crystals since day 1 and have never needed to dose...

Normal parameters:
90g BB DT / 30g DSB SUMP
Temp: 76 winter / 78 summer
Salinity: 35ppt (1.0267)
PH 8.0-8.1
Calcium 420-460
ALK: 7-9
Mag: 1350-1500
Nitrates 5-10
Phosophates: 0-0.15

Current parameters: (not present = no change)
PH 7.8
Calcium: 440
ALK: 4???
Mag: IDK dropped the kit, broke it

Nitrates: 0
Phosophates: 0

After I got the algea handled. I thought the green hair/bubble algea was smoothering the coraline algea, but after I got rocks clear noticed there was no coraline algea at all.. I expected it to be bleached or something but no it wasn't there. My fish had come into a baterial infection while using the reef frenzy (another reason I stopped feeding the frenzy) and I am treating with my orignal feeding mix with selcon added... Baterial infection seem to dissappear but the oldest clown devloped pop eye in just one eye?.. So yeah switched foods and all hell breaks lose...

So I start testing looking for what is off.. I test alk and it is 5dkh.. Must be my test is inaccurate *I think* ( nope its right ). I do 10%(10g) WC two days in a row , so total 20g in two days.. Test ALK thinking it should have raised a little ( mixed water is 7 dkh) Nope it dropped? To 3dkh... wait a day and test again. it is at 4dkh PH is at 7.8... Can you say stumped... I know algea can "hold" ALK but not that much I don't think... At this time I test calcium and find it at a lower than normal 400.. Could the corals finally taking more than WC can replace?

So I buy some baking soda and am in the process of baking 200grams right now...

MY PLAN: I plan to use the baked baking soda and the unbaked baking soda to continually raise ALK while adjusting PH. As you may or may not know. Baked Soda raises PH and ALK. While unBaked soda raises ALK but lowers PH.. The dosing calculator estimated around 50-60grams of soda was needed. But I don't want to raise more than 1dkh &or 0.1 PH per day. So I figured adding it to top off was the best method. My ATO is gravity feed and can only dump 1-2 drips per second. So if I est. 10grams soda per gallon of top off per day for 5days things should be alot closer to on track..

If you have knowledge dosing or some chemistry. Please tell me how you would do it.. And my questions are Why the drop in ALK, corals are all growing and coloring nice have since July 2013 and started accelerating growth in OCT 2013 (20g weekly water changes was keeping levels up) . Could my corals really be consuming that much more ALK than Calcium?

Once my levels are straight again, I plan to start using KALK to maintain... FYI corals still look great and growing despite lack of ALK..?

 

[gregoryleonard]

I use Hanna for Cal, Phosphate, Alk and Red Sea for Mag. I love the Hanna kits, I know some people don't like the Calcium and Alk but I found them to be accurate and easy to use.

Bernard

Hanna for AK, Seachem pro for CA, and Red Sea Pro for Mg.

 

[Ocho Cinco]

Sorry to Highjack but are you my super ego. I was just going to post this same thing..


---Looking for possible causes and solutions...---

Back story: Set up by combining established tanks June 1st 2013, Cycled and live stocked started to add July 1st 2013... Tank was doing great, stable until late December 2013, when I started using reef frenzy as a main/only food source (friends reccomendation). Within 2 weeks Algea bloomed and I stopped feeding frenzy.. Went into overtime on cleaning the aglea problem... Did multiple WC, blowing rocks off, cleaning filters, ect... Algea problem is over. My husbandry is stable and well maintained. I could tell you how much nitrates I create and export weekly. Could normally tell you all my parmeters without testing!. I tell you this in hopes I don't get a million noob questions. No offense intended.

I use reef crystals since day 1 and have never needed to dose...

Normal parameters:
90g BB DT / 30g DSB SUMP
Temp: 76 winter / 78 summer
Salinity: 35ppt (1.0267)
PH 8.0-8.1
Calcium 420-460
ALK: 7-9
Mag: 1350-1500
Nitrates 5-10
Phosophates: 0-0.15

Current parameters: (not present = no change)
PH 7.8
Calcium: 440
ALK: 4???
Mag: IDK dropped the kit, broke it

Nitrates: 0
Phosophates: 0

After I got the algea handled. I thought the green hair/bubble algea was smoothering the coraline algea, but after I got rocks clear noticed there was no coraline algea at all.. I expected it to be bleached or something but no it wasn't there. My fish had come into a baterial infection while using the reef frenzy (another reason I stopped feeding the frenzy) and I am treating with my orignal feeding mix with selcon added... Baterial infection seem to dissappear but the oldest clown devloped pop eye in just one eye?.. So yeah switched foods and all hell breaks lose...

So I start testing looking for what is off.. I test alk and it is 5dkh.. Must be my test is inaccurate *I think* ( nope its right ). I do 10%(10g) WC two days in a row , so total 20g in two days.. Test ALK thinking it should have raised a little ( mixed water is 7 dkh) Nope it dropped? To 3dkh... wait a day and test again. it is at 4dkh PH is at 7.8... Can you say stumped... I know algea can "hold" ALK but not that much I don't think... At this time I test calcium and find it at a lower than normal 400.. Could the corals finally taking more than WC can replace?

So I buy some baking soda and am in the process of baking 200grams right now...

MY PLAN: I plan to use the baked baking soda and the unbaked baking soda to continually raise ALK while adjusting PH. As you may or may not know. Baked Soda raises PH and ALK. While unBaked soda raises ALK but lowers PH.. The dosing calculator estimated around 50-60grams of soda was needed. But I don't want to raise more than 1dkh &or 0.1 PH per day. So I figured adding it to top off was the best method. My ATO is gravity feed and can only dump 1-2 drips per second. So if I est. 10grams soda per gallon of top off per day for 5days things should be alot closer to on track..

If you have knowledge dosing or some chemistry. Please tell me how you would do it.. And my questions are Why the drop in ALK, corals are all growing and coloring nice have since July 2013 and started accelerating growth in OCT 2013 (20g weekly water changes was keeping levels up) . Could my corals really be consuming that much more ALK than Calcium?

Once my levels are straight again, I plan to start using KALK to maintain... FYI corals still look great and growing despite lack of ALK..?

No hijack away! A little learning never hurt.

As for the cause of yours I'm not too sure. I think I found out the cause of mine. I had a Bryopsis (sp?) breakout and found one of the only ways to fix it was to raise MAG with Kent Marine Tech M. I did so and it worked! I did some water changes to lower it but it always stayed high. I believe having my MAG high helped keep ALK and CA stable. It seems now after doing water changes (I've always used Reef Crystals as well) MAG finally dropped far enough to mess with my ALK and CA.

I woul get your MAG tested and up first as that will help maintain your ALK and CA. That is my game plan. Raise MAG followed by raising ALK and CA. Having MAG at good level will help stabilize the other 2. So far the Seachem products (using those instead of baking soda) have not messed with my PH too much . This is part of the info I have learned so far

Good luck and ask all the questions you need

 

[CaliO]

Thx. I really got to get another Mag test kit. LFS suck and don't test alot.. Simple test kits only.. Thanks for the reply and allowing me to high jack. I will be back tomorrow with mag levels.. Not going to dose anything untill I know Mag..

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks! I'm aiming for those same levels.

How come the reef calculator and the back of Seachem products differ so much?
Per Seachem's advantage magnesium I would add 1 TSP per 20 gallons. For each TSP I add they state it will raise my MAG 5 mg/L(PPM). So I would have to add 10 TSP to raise MAG from 1350 (current) to 1400. Reef Chemistry Calculator states I would have to add 42.7 TSP to raise it to 1400. These are obviously way different. Did I do something wrong here?

On another note, I added Reef Builder last night. I tested 2 hours after and it raised my ALK from 5.4 to 7 and MAG from 1140 to 1350 but lowered my CA by 20 ppm. I feel like with this increase in MAG, that product is taking care of it for me?

IIRC = "If I Recall Correctly" As in: "If I recall correctly, "IIRC" means If I Recall Correctly." :suspicious:

Maybe I need sleep. LOL.

If you ever see anything like "5g per 20 gallons" on a product like Reef Advantage Magnesium, know that they are dummy instructions IMO. Worthless...better off ignored. Possibly even harmful in some cases. (This is where you went wrong in your numbers, through no fault of your own.) Skip ahead to the "Advanced" instructions, which in reality are the only correct instructions and not really advanced at all. Just not dumb.

From the link:

Each 5 g/80 L will raise magnesium by about 5 mg/L

Not sure why they feel the need to force us into metric or why they state that in such an obtuse way, but at least they give you the info you need in some form. Having it stated in gallons would have been more user-friendly, so let's start there.

5 grams added to 21 gallons of water will raise Mg by about 5 ppm (=mg/L)​

So, lets assume your tank is 20 gallons, and your Mg tests at 1350 ppm, and you want to adjust Mg up to 1400.

According to the Seachem's equation, you need about 50 grams to get a 50 ppm boost.

The Reef Chemistry Calculator tells me 47.5 grams - probably a more-correct adjustment, and certainly "about 50 grams".

Hope this helps!

-Matt