Should sellers be responsible for FedEx delays?

[Jr'sReef]

But all retailers have processes for lost merchandise. It drives up cost for everything, but it is built in to cost. Part of the cost of business, right? That is not specific to coral sellers. Take amazon, for example. If I buy a $400 dollar item, and they ship UPS and it never gets to me, should I be out $400 bucks? No. And Amazon (once confirming with UPS/Fedex/Whoever) ships a new one. Are they out $400 bucks? Yes. However, they built into final price an extra $0.5o (made up number) to every unit they sell, so after 800 units, they have covered the cost of 1 lost shipment. If it happens continuously, Amazon would make a change to the shipper that keeps losing their product.

You’re comparing a coral retailer to one of the biggest online retail stores in the world.
Are some of the coral shops big? Probably, but I doubt any can come close. The point is, yes there certainly is a markup on their prices, perhaps even for DOA somewhere in the price, but I doubt it really makes a dent to the hit they take when they gotta replace or refund including shipping and packaging.

You don’t purchase a coral and put it on a shelf and remove it when someone wants to buy it. There’s expensive lights, electricity, pumps, chemicals and the list goes on. They have an overhead which most stores don’t, and shipping costs more expensive than most stores have.

If it’s the retailers fault, for example a broken bag,then I believe they should refund the buyer. But for something out of their control..... I disagree to those that demand it

 

[Pacific Island Aquatics]

I personally have chosen to cover shipping delays. I feel it is my duty to get the fish into my customers hands, and if UPS screws up, I cover it.

Over 90% of my business consists of repeat customers. I enjoy building relationships with the folks that support me, and I feel personally obligated to do right by them. I have been "taken" by a few scammers, but ultimately I choose to believe 99.9999% of people are honest and operate accordingly. One of the most rewarding parts of this for me, is being able to participate in my clients process of building their dream tank.

Claiming no responsibility for a shipping loss/delay would undermine all of this, and be unfair to my customers. Just my philosophy!

Colby
Pacific Island Aquatics

 

[andre zaharchenya]

I 100% agree with second rule/statement because some buyers like to take advantage of it and say that corals arrived dead and I need my money back. Yes, need clean and multiple photos of a dead coral if buyer is saying that it arrived dead!

 

[mehaffydr]

I would say that anyone who buys from a seller that clearly states their terms and conditions should accept what ever happens. It is the sellers right to sell His/Her products under what ever terms they decide not the buyer. If you decide to buy from that vendor then you agree to their terms. To later say your going to try and get paypal or a credit card to not pay them is totally dishonest and just plain wrong. If you don't like the vendors terms pick another vendor. That's the way a free market works.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

Most of the discussion has centered around purchasing from businesses/vendors/sponsors. But, what are your thoughts on hobbyist to hobbyist transactions? If something goes awry there, who should be responsible?

The seller imo. The buyer should never have to pay for the loss. When I’m buying the product I expect it to arrive at my place alive

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

Since my name was tossed around a little here, I figured I may as well chime in. I always try to avoid self promoting in threads like this, but for what its worth, I gave up fighting Fed ex years ago. The way I see it, the burden is, and always has been on me, whatever the circumstances. My (unwritten) policy essential states, that at no time ever, will the buyer be out a single penny and have nothing in their hands. That means when fed ex blows it you get another box, or replacements or something to balance out the losses, pretty much no questions asked. (unless it's very obvious to me that they were dipped to hard, in which case coral is still replaced, but we'll discuss dipping for sure before I reship).

And even in those unbelievably frustrating instances when fed ex blows it once, then blows the replacement packs, and we decide after that to call it a day. The customers got a full refunds. They know who they are lol. It's loose loose loose, but sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad. It's always a bit of a relief when customers agree to have any replacements shipped with their next order, and I am generous with the extras in these cases as well.

It’s clear that when we shop from you we feel safe and worry-free. Not to say that the buyer now can hold something against the seller. But being treated respectfully and genuinely by a business like this or any business in general is why we keep going back to those business even if the competitor has cheaper prices. Shopping is an experience too and it needn’t to be intimidating.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

I have paid shipping and my entire order was received without delay and was DOA. I received store credit on the live stock but no credit for shipping. So I ended up paying $39 for dead livestock.

It’s true but I personally understand this because the seller paid shipping, plus the box, labor cost, as well as the cost of livestock to ship it to you.

But then there are some other ones, including some big names, that will charge a 50 flat shipping fee and 20% refund “restocking” fee for DOA AND also don’t cover any delays. To me that kind of policy is absurd and almost “punishing” to a customer. DOA? Sure, you only get 80% back, minus the shipping charge of course. That is if you took “detailed pictures” of the DOA item within ONE hour. I’m not going to call out their name but watch out if you are buying and always check the terms before you place an order. To me if you don’t have free shipping and charge a mandatory $50 shipping fee for a 9x8x8 box which costs only 35 -45 to ship then I’m expecting the item to arrive alive regardless of how many days it takes and whichever carrier you are using. And no I do not expect to pay any extra fee let it be 10% or 20% for the refund. Why should I pay the extra fee for a dead coral provided that I already paid 50 shipping charge and you’re not “restocking” at all? That’s the most intimidating and punishing policy I’ve ever seen.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

If the seller packages the coral or fish in a way where if the package wasn’t delayed due to an act of god why should the seller have to refund the money?
If you went to the local pet store and purchased a fish and on the way home got T-boned and the fish flew onto the pavement and died is the store owner going to refund you that achillies tang? Highly doubt it, and highly doubt you’d go back for a refund bc unfortunately it is what it is.

I believe it’s more the carriers fault than anyone else. And if they don’t refund due to their policies, then isn’t that the cost and risk of buying?

That’s just my opinion. But there’s many online retailers that will refund or work with their buyers. We as consumers should not believe that that should be the norm or take it for granted. That’s these guys going above and beyond. They don’t need to, they choose to.

There is a big difference between buying a fish from local store and tboned and buying a fish paying for the shipping and damaged on the way. The fish is in your possession when damage takes place, in the LFS scenario. The store sold it to you alive and you took it into your car alive. You are now responsible. But online purchase is different.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

I would say that anyone who buys from a seller that clearly states their terms and conditions should accept what ever happens. It is the sellers right to sell His/Her products under what ever terms they decide not the buyer. If you decide to buy from that vendor then you agree to their terms. To later say your going to try and get paypal or a credit card to not pay them is totally dishonest and just plain wrong. If you don't like the vendors terms pick another vendor. That's the way a free market works.

Although it’s not required for any business or any individual seller here to provide delay coverage, we customers do hold big power in hand and I hope this thread raise awareness on this issue and that free choices can become a powerful determination factor in this hobby.

 

[jduong916]

When is the buyer ever supposed to take a loss? If i pay for something its the seller responsibility to get it to me. Why should i be expected to pay for something and not receive it? If you cant guarantee a delivery then don’t sell the item. If the item is doa then the seller should take the loss. Its not like the sellers loses full retail price. So is the buyer expected to also pay the sellers profit even if no item was received?

 

[Michael Cooper]

So I’ve had an issue with this from a seller’s point of view.

I had a customer purchase corals from me to be shipped. Normally I provide the shipping label that way I make sure all the shipping is correct and the scheduled delivery is correct and I choose priority next day. Well I had a customer that was insistent that he provided his own label for the shipment to be sent Friday, and delivered Saturday by 8PM (Standard Overnight?). I know with FedEx you have to pay extra for Saturday delivery, which I told the customer, but he continued he would provide the label because he gets it cheaper.

So said customer provided me the label. When I was shipping their package it was 20 degrees where I’m located, and about 5 degrees where they were located. But their corals were packaged with 48 hour heat warmers, styrofoam, etc. to keep them more than warm (Had it packaged by a buddy that’s a large wholesaler so packs many packages every week). Their package was dropped off more than early enough to be shipped in time for the next day. And of course, I used their provided label.

Well, the next day I check the tracking to see where the package is and it was still at the carrier facility. So I questioned why it was there, and so did the customer. Well after speaking with two representatives from FedEx, and further examining the provided label, the customer didn’t pay for Saturday delivery, and was rather scheduled for Monday delivery.

Well of course, the package arrived Monday, and everything was dead. Before shipping, and before receiving their label, I told them I would provide DOA return with my shipping because I would be responsible. But they insisted still on using their label. So after the saw the corals were dead, they wanted a refund. However, I explained that I couldn’t provide one because shipping was on them, they screwed up the delivery date, therefore they were responsible. I told him if it was my mistake, then he could’ve had his money back. I also explained it’s one thing if it as poorly packaged, the bags were broken or leaking, but they arrived in perfect condition.

So moral of the story is, if the seller will provide the label and offer DOA guarantee refunds, do that, don’t try “saving money” on your own because you take the responsibility.

Do you guys agree?

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

So I’ve had an issue with this from a seller’s point of view.

I had a customer purchase corals from me to be shipped. Normally I provide the shipping label that way I make sure all the shipping is correct and the scheduled delivery is correct and I choose priority next day. Well I had a customer that was insistent that he provided his own label for the shipment to be sent Friday, and delivered Saturday by 8PM (Standard Overnight?). I know with FedEx you have to pay extra for Saturday delivery, which I told the customer, but he continued he would provide the label because he gets it cheaper.

So said customer provided me the label. When I was shipping their package it was 20 degrees where I’m located, and about 5 degrees where they were located. But their corals were packaged with 48 hour heat warmers, styrofoam, etc. to keep them more than warm (Had it packaged by a buddy that’s a large wholesaler so packs many packages every week). Their package was dropped off more than early enough to be shipped in time for the next day. And of course, I used their provided label.

Well, the next day I check the tracking to see where the package is and it was still at the carrier facility. So I questioned why it was there, and so did the customer. Well after speaking with two representatives from FedEx, and further examining the provided label, the customer didn’t pay for Saturday delivery, and was rather scheduled for Monday delivery.

Well of course, the package arrived Monday, and everything was dead. Before shipping, and before receiving their label, I told them I would provide DOA return with my shipping because I would be responsible. But they insisted still on using their label. So after the saw the corals were dead, they wanted a refund. However, I explained that I couldn’t provide one because shipping was on them, they screwed up the delivery date, therefore they were responsible. I told him if it was my mistake, then he could’ve had his money back. I also explained it’s one thing if it as poorly packaged, the bags were broken or leaking, but they arrived in perfect condition.

So moral of the story is, if the seller will provide the label and offer DOA guarantee refunds, do that, don’t try “saving money” on your own because you take the responsibility.

Do you guys agree?

Completely agree. In this case the customer is at fault and needs to absorb the loss. Because the customer booked shipping and forgot to book Saturday delivery. In my opinion if the customer booked themselves and got the label then the customer should be responsible for the delay.

 

[mcarroll]

Why should the buyer bear the loss?

No matter how much experience a seller has shipping there is always a risk shipping livestock.

Selling livestock online is inherently risky. This should be known by both parties. IMO the seller and buyer should both share the risk of significant loss when it doesn't work out. (Edit: No second chances for the animals involved, after all.)

On the responsibility of the buyer...

We were proud NOT to offer a livestock guaratee at the LFS I used to work for.

Our position was that we took responsibility for the animal thus far (ocean to retail). If you're paying for it, you're taking responsibilty for it. Period.

If that worries you then you are impulse buying and haven't done enough research to confidently buy the animal – your purchase would not be wanted by us or the animal.

My experience was that our customers seemed to respect us for this. I certainly never lost a sale from it, but it probably did shape some buying choices.

 

[ADAM]

If you bought a new HVAC system from me and the delivery truck was in a total loss accident in route to your house/ job site are you gonna pay for the system that you don't have? Just because its perishable item doesn't mean that the buyer should be solely responsible. If you don't want to take the chance you shouldn't sell. Its pretty clear to most business owners that are providing a quality service or product to their community instead of owners trying to collect money from their community. IMHO....

 

[FishyDave]

But all retailers have processes for lost merchandise. It drives up cost for everything, but it is built in to cost. Part of the cost of business, right? That is not specific to coral sellers. Take amazon, for example. If I buy a $400 dollar item, and they ship UPS and it never gets to me, should I be out $400 bucks? No. And Amazon (once confirming with UPS/Fedex/Whoever) ships a new one. Are they out $400 bucks? Yes. However, they built into final price an extra $0.5o (made up number) to every unit they sell, so after 800 units, they have covered the cost of 1 lost shipment. If it happens continuously, Amazon would make a change to the shipper that keeps losing their product.

I'm not sure this is a good comparison. Amazon is never out $400 here. Some of the posters, Like Pacific Aqua Culture, said they can buy extra insurance to cover the loss of coral, but it costs $8-$12 dollars. Otherwise the coral shipper is out the cost of shipping and the coral because UPS/FedEx do not insure perishables. For Amazon (any company), when you ship UPS/FedEx you just put in the declared value of the item and if it gets lost or destroyed you get all the money back. Other type of companies do not need to charge you an added.50 cents to make up for it, it's covered by the shipping company.

I just don't think this is the same thing and we should not really have the same expectations as when we are buying from Amazon as when we are buying corals. It seems to me both the buyer and the seller bearing some of the cost is the fairest option.

 

[FloodWaters]

I really feel there needs to be a clear distinction from small time sellers vs large sellers. A small seller usually doesn’t have the insurance, or the market share to absorb 100% of the loss from a shipping company’s screwing up. Even with a scary 1-3 hour no DOA policy, odds are the seller takes a bath on the deal anyways. If a seller is charging fair market value for a fish/coral they are out just as much as the buy is. I feel there is a common theme in this thread that only the buyer’s money matters. As a small business owner in a non-livestock related area, I can assure you covering act of god type events can bury a small business. Unrealistic buyer expectations are the main reason Amazon, Wal-Mart, etc may end up being the only game in town. Fewer store options rarely end well for buyers in the long run. So, please keep that in mind if you have plans to rake a seller over the coals via a chargeback or PayPal disputes over something they have no control over.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

If you're paying for it, you're taking responsibilty for it. Period.

I believe that's what the majority of people think how a LFS operate and there isn't much disagreement on that. Once the the item is IN YOUR POSSESSION, your responsible for it. For online retailing it's different. It shouldn't be once you are paying for it you're taking responsibility for it. Most LFS don't offer any guarantee and that's the norm. But for online purchases several vendors have showed up in this thread and they do get a boost from having such policies (just look at the polling result and how many likes BoomCorals got) that cover delays and customers feel safer doing business with them and are perhaps more likely to place an order. To be honest, how much money would you really lose from covering FedEx delays anyways? They don't happen that often. But I know that many people will hesitate when they see a policy that doesn't cover delays, especially if you are selling high-end corals that one can cost several hundred bucks. Personally I think the benefits of offering such coverage will outweight the disadvantage/loss. The hobby doesn't force anyone to change their policies; however the market and the competition might do it.

 

[Sir Chris]

If it’s nextday then doa is on the vendor if it arrives late. As buyers we take a large risk buying from said vendor. What parameters he runs, pests bubble algae, so much more. If it’s on saterday at 12 and comes Sunday then yes the vendor should take that since the risk is higher on the buyer it evens the odds and a quality vendor will and has. If it’s an issue then use a new vendor. EDIT: small company’s will be less willing to so all circumstantial to a point as there odds are less having less stock. I’ve lost many sps in 12 hr RTN from juiced or so low alk it’s basically doomed b4 it even enters ur tank and y I run a 14g nano for that issue I’m 9.8 and the nano is 8.4 and still is a risk

 

[FishyDave]

It’s true but I personally understand this because the seller paid shipping, plus the box, labor cost, as well as the cost of livestock to ship it to you.

But then there are some other ones, including some big names, that will charge a 50 flat shipping fee and 20% refund “restocking” fee for DOA AND also don’t cover any delays. To me that kind of policy is absurd and almost “punishing” to a customer. DOA? Sure, you only get 80% back, minus the shipping charge of course. That is if you took “detailed pictures” of the DOA item within ONE hour. I’m not going to call out their name but watch out if you are buying and always check the terms before you place an order. To me if you don’t have free shipping and charge a mandatory $50 shipping fee for a 9x8x8 box which costs only 35 -45 to ship then I’m expecting the item to arrive alive regardless of how many days it takes and whichever carrier you are using. And no I do not expect to pay any extra fee let it be 10% or 20% for the refund. Why should I pay the extra fee for a dead coral provided that I already paid 50 shipping charge and you’re not “restocking” at all? That’s the most intimidating and punishing policy I’ve ever seen.

First, I love this discussion and want to thank you for posting it!

I keep seeing people comment that the sellers are making money on shipping. I work for an insurance company and have to ship computer equipment for my job and even small things like a iPad tablet never cost $35-$45 dollar to get somewhere next day. In the last two years the rates for shipping with both carriers have gone up a lot, even with our company discount it's crazy expensive when we have to send something in an emergency next day air.

So how is shipping only $35-$45 dollars with FedEx or UPS for corals?

I just ran two quotes one from UPS and one from FedEx site for the 9x8x8 box size and put in 10 lb. for the weight. I shipped the box from Quality Marine in LA, because I know that's where my LiveAquaria stuff comes from and I sent it to Houston to the Aquarium Downtown via next day shipping. UPS was $128.69 for 10:30 AM delivery and FedEx was $131.88 for the same 10:30 AM delivery. I'm sure these guys gets some discounts like we do, but our discount is not even 50% at work.

I just don't see how they are making money shipping, they have to be losing or banking on some law of averages. If someone has a secret to get cheap shipping, please let me know. I would be a company hero at work!

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

I really feel there needs to be a clear distinction from small time sellers vs large sellers. A small seller usually doesn’t have the insurance, or the market share to absorb 100% of the loss from a shipping company’s screwing up. Even with a scary 1-3 hour no DOA policy, odds are the seller takes a bath on the deal anyways. If a seller is charging fair market value for a fish/coral they are out just as much as the buy is. I feel there is a common theme in this thread that only the buyer’s money matters. As a small business owner in a non-livestock related area, I can assure you covering act of god type events can bury a small business. Unrealistic buyer expectations are the main reason Amazon, Wal-Mart, etc may end up being the only game in town. Fewer store options rarely end well for buyers in the long run. So, please keep that in mind if you have plans to rake a seller over the coals via a chargeback or PayPal disputes over something they have no control over.

I understand that. But as many people said in this thread, it needs to be reasonable. Is it reasonable for the seller to keep the profit of the sale and ask the buyer to deal with FedEx? Some might argue that the seller's cost also involves the cost of running the place. True, but the buyer in this case would absolutely lose all that money and received a dead coral with no use. Who is to protect the buyer? That's why I strongly disagree with this type of policy regardless whether it's from a big business or small business because it's unreasonable. It's perhaps more reasonable that both sides share some cost. A replacement with the buyer helping out the shipping cost would be the best outcome. But it's unreasonable for the seller to keep the profit - business as usual, while the buyer to take up the loss.