Should sellers be responsible for FedEx delays?

[stevieduk]

This might get heated up but let's talk about shipment delays due to weather/fedex/ups, etc. A lot of sellers have similar sentences as part of their shipping policy:

"We cannot be held responsible for FedEx delays or similar delays by the act of God."
"In the case of DOA, a clear picture must be submitted within ONE hour with the specimen in the original bag."

From a customer's perspective, I don't agree with the first statement and I think the second statement is quite intimidating.

When you purchase something from an online store, either it's a piece of furniture, a fresh basket of meat, or something else, you can confidently expect the seller to assume the responsibility of delivering their product to your home safely. If the package is lost, broken, or delayed so that the meat goes bad, they will ship you a new package. However in this hobby, the majority of sellers state very clearly that they will not cover the loss if your package is delayed by carrier. Since when have we tolerated these policies and how long will we continue to tolerate them? For me, they are unreasonable. I try not to buy from sellers with such statement. A seller should be responsible for getting their corals safely to the buyer's house and live arrival should always be guaranteed. Why should the buyer bear the loss? How can we change this trend?

For the second statement, I understand it. But I see a deep distrust from the seller's side...

Whatever your opinions are, please state them. This is an open conversation and I would love to hear from both sides.

i quite agree with there statement. I sell plastic tubing for construction on line , and i follow the same guidelines.
Until you sell online you cannot imagine how many ways people will try and rip you off as a seller, even with something that cannot die, so sellers of coral have my deepest sympathies.
Just do what I do if you want to be safe , and if there is any bad or cold weather around, or its the time of year when things may get a bit snarled up, DONT ORDER

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

First, I love this discussion and want to thank you for posting it!

I keep seeing people comment that the sellers are making money on shipping. I work for an insurance company and have to ship computer equipment for my job and even small things like a iPad tablet never cost $35-$45 dollar to get somewhere next day. In the last two years the rates for shipping with both carriers have gone up a lot, even with our company discount it's crazy expensive when we have to send something in an emergency next day air.

So how is shipping only $35-$45 dollars with FedEx or UPS for corals?

I just ran two quotes one from UPS and one from FedEx site for the 9x8x8 box size and put in 10 lb. for the weight. I shipped the box from Quality Marine in LA, because I know that's where my LiveAquaria stuff comes from and I sent it to Houston to the Aquarium Downtown via next day shipping. UPS was $128.69 for 10:30 AM delivery and FedEx was $131.88 for the same 10:30 AM delivery. I'm sure these guys gets some discounts like we do, but our discount is not even 50% at work.

I just don't see how they are making money shipping, they have to be losing or banking on some law of averages. If someone has a secret to get cheap shipping, please let me know. I would be a company hero at work!

Most sellers here have some 3rd party companies that can issue labels at around 50% of the retail price from FedEx. For a 9x8x8 box for example, the limit is 4 lbs. Under 4 lbs it's a flat charge. For frags usually that's a good amount of weight for that space before you get bumped into the next tire. Shipping this box out through FedEx, the shipping charge is around 20 - 25 if the destination is reached without using a plane. If a plane is needed, it costs about 35-45, perhaps a little bit more. Now if you are shipping colonies out then that would be a different scenario. The box has to be bigger, and you need to put more water in there. Therefore the seller has to calculate shipping costs into their list prices. However if you are selling designer acro frags, shipping out a 9x8x8 (which is really common) with several designer frags will not cost you that much. (but they are not making money like some would say because you have to calculate labor cost and the charge of the box which is around 5 dollars and can be a bit more than 5) So it might be more profitable in such sense to sell high-end expensive designer frags because shipping is cheaper and survivor rate higher. You can see this trend in our hobby and it's very popular.

Thank you for joining the conversation! It's really great to hear both sides and look at where the opinions land on the poll. We've already got a few businesses commenting here about their policies as well.

 

[dede]

If the seller packages the coral or fish in a way where if the package wasn’t delayed due to an act of god why should the seller have to refund the money?
If you went to the local pet store and purchased a fish and on the way home got T-boned and the fish flew onto the pavement and died is the store owner going to refund you that achillies tang? Highly doubt it, and highly doubt you’d go back for a refund bc unfortunately it is what it is.

I believe it’s more the carriers fault than anyone else. And if they don’t refund due to their policies, then isn’t that the cost and risk of buying?

That’s just my opinion. But there’s many online retailers that will refund or work with their buyers. We as consumers should not believe that that should be the norm or take it for granted. That’s these guys going above and beyond. They don’t need to, they choose to.

That is the cost and risk of selling your livestock online as a business and should be covered by the seller.

You can not even compare buying from a LFS to buying online. At an LFS you see exactly what you are purchasing, You have ample amount of time to inspect the animal closely. And there is probably no more then a couple hours till that animal is in your tank.

Right now as I see it the online buyers are taking the majority of the risk. Doctored photos, small specimens, fresh cuts, pest, poor packaging, improper handling and shipping delays. This should not be the norm!

We as consumers should expect a healthy, live animal and nothing less. And this 1 -2 hour window is just unreasonable. If there is a shipping delay it should be on the seller as part of their business overhead.

Those businesses that guarantee their livestock are not going above and beyond, they are employing good business practices. If you alienate one customer due to a bad experience, in essence you are doing so with 10 others as well due to the negative feedback received both verbal and online.

I think as someone else pointed out that a lot of buyers are not even aware these policies exist until a problem occurs, then the seller is quick to point out that they have this policy and the buyer should have asked. It only takes once to be burned like this before you join the group above and only buy from those with a full guarantee policy.

 

[Dr.Xipoles]

For that reason in the OP is why I dont buy corals online. Maybe in the future I will, but luckily I live close to WWC and other good LFS so they satisfy my addiction.

But back to the OP, sellers should be like WWC. Monitor the weather and such and make acommodations. WWC will not ship corals if the weather is going to make delays for the shipment. Yes, sometimes delays are unavoidable, and the seller must protect themself as there are a lot of scammers out there.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

FedEx and UPS offer shipping insurance one would hope for pennies on the dollar that the seller insured the package for a stated amount and then nobody takes a loss but that is common sense stuff right there and most people today seem not to operate with much common sense! I am in this same boat with a well known supplier of which I won’t throw under the bus just yet but they delayed shipment on their end two days and now usps has delayed delivery one day for no reason at all and I am praying that my livestock shows up alive!

 

[IslandLifeReef]

No one can control the weather or other acts of God that may delay shipping. We all know that and should consider it before making a purchase. If you bought a car and the next day it was hit by a falling branch, would the dealer be responsible? No. I only purchase coral online from dealers that priority overnight ship their product and provide a decent amount of time to see if the coral survives. That is my choice. Having any perishable item shipped is risky and we as consumers have to decide if we want to take that risk, or find a local dealer to provide the same or similar product.

 

[ontop27]

The point im still confused at.. if its in the persons terms then that is the terms?? Dont buy from them of you arent comfortable.

 

[Robthorn]

Not sure if this has been said but its always the buyer. All the way down to the importer. Imagine losing a $50k order because of flight delays. Yes it happens unfortunately.
The risk is given to you up front and you still chose to buy it is on you. If the seller decides to go against their own policy then that is great but since you agreed to a contract before making payment its on you.

I just wish we could hold the shipping company accountable or make them make every attempt to return the package to the seller in order to save the animals. I think somebody with some pull should work on this. Anyone?

 

[BoomCorals]

Most sellers here have some 3rd party companies that can issue labels at around 50% of the retail price from FedEx. For a 9x8x8 box for example, the limit is 4 lbs. Under 4 lbs it's a flat charge. For frags usually that's a good amount of weight for that space before you get bumped into the next tire. Shipping this box out through FedEx, the shipping charge is around 20 - 25 if the destination is reached without using a plane. If a plane is needed, it costs about 35-45, perhaps a little bit more. Now if you are shipping colonies out then that would be a different scenario. The box has to be bigger, and you need to put more water in there. Therefore the seller has to calculate shipping costs into their list prices. However if you are selling designer acro frags, shipping out a 9x8x8 (which is really common) with several designer frags will not cost you that much. (but they are not making money like some would say because you have to calculate labor cost and the charge of the box which is around 5 dollars and can be a bit more than 5) So it might be more profitable in such sense to sell high-end expensive designer frags because shipping is cheaper and survivor rate higher. You can see this trend in our hobby and it's very popular.

Thank you for joining the conversation! It's really great to hear both sides and look at where the opinions land on the poll. We've already got a few businesses commenting here about their policies as well.

I have a 50% fedex discount and 9x8x8 is one of my boxes. Unless the box is going to a very close state such as Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, etc, it costs me $45 to ship it after discount, as high at $56 if they are far and live in a rural area too. And that’s just the label, haven’t factored in box and shipping supplies etc.

 

[BoomCorals]

FedEx and UPS offer shipping insurance one would hope for pennies on the dollar that the seller insured the package for a stated amount and then nobody takes a loss but that is common sense stuff right there and most people today seem not to operate with much common sense! I am in this same boat with a well known supplier of which I won’t throw under the bus just yet but they delayed shipment on their end two days and now usps has delayed delivery one day for no reason at all and I am praying that my livestock shows up alive!

You can’t insure perishable items.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

You can’t insure perishable items.

Respectfully disagree, we do it every day.

 

[TL Reefs]

I appreciate this thread. It has educated me on the viewpoint of the buyer. I've only ever looked at it from my point of view, and it is certainly different than that of a buyer.
There are some common misconceptions that keep coming up in this thread. But it would be impossible to educate every buyer on the reality of shipping costs/insurance/losses from scammers. So, logically, that means I need to understand the customer's point of view, and adjust my business practice to suit. Although our stated policy is that we don't cover losses due to delays, I've never actually enforced it.

Thanks for the education, and we will be updating our shipping policies to reflect what we really do, and also what the customer wants!

But I will ask everyone here who thinks the vendors are profiting on shipping charges, please consider what BoomCorals stated above. I never pay less then $45 for shipping out of State, and it averages around $50-70 for a small order. Plus the $5-$10 cost of box and packing materials. I have never made a profit on shipping charges.

 

[TL Reefs]

Respectfully disagree, we do it every day.

But didn't you state it was a negotiated deal, and it has to be applied to every order? So the average person is unable to insure live goods, correct?

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

But didn't you state it was a negotiated deal, and it has to be applied to every order? So the average person is unable to insure live goods, correct?

Yes, but BoomCorals stated it as a matter of fact across the board and thats not the case. Every vendor could insure shipments. UPS offers 3 levels of insurance as standard services, it's not something they invented just for us. It just takes some digging to find out about it. UPS actually did a case study on us and published a promotional flyer to sell their insurance programs. When I get in the office I'll take a pic and post it. Again, the insurance does cover livestock.

What folks don't often think about is the costs get added to the product. No one wants to pay for the box and packing materials and everyone wants free shipping. However, those items are obviously never actually free, the costs just get added in somewhere. Its just a psychological thing.

 

[BoomCorals]

Respectfully disagree, we do it every day.

Sorry I should have clarified that with UPS there is an option, if you are a large enough account or can pay for the option? Which I didn’t know until you posted that by the way. So I learned something new!

 

[BoomCorals]

By the way I love the fellow vendors here. @Battlecorals @PacificEastAquaculture @TL Reefs all being very transparent and that’s pretty awesome.

Yes, but BoomCorals stated it as a matter of fact across the board and thats not the case. Every vendor could insure shipments. UPS offers 3 levels of insurance as standard services, it's not something they invented just for us. It just takes some digging to find out about it. UPS actually did a case study on us and published a promotional flyer to sell their insurance programs. When I get in the office I'll take a pic and post it. Again, the insurance does cover livestock.

What folks don't often think about is the costs get added to the product. No one wants to pay for the box and packing materials and everyone wants free shipping. However, those items are obviously never actually free, the costs just get added in somewhere. Its just a psychological thing.

Yea that’s my fault I should have clarified. Blanket statement was incorrect. And very true on shipping, box, etc costs. We have to build those into the coral pricing otherwise we would lose money.

 

[iemsparticus]

Agreed, it should be on the shipping company. However, it has been established in this thread, I believe, that livestock is not covered by the big shipping companies. Hence this debate on who is responsible to pay for it if the shipping company won't reimburse anybody.

In my point of view, if it should be the shipping company, I’m not willing to require the seller to pick up their slack. If I order something, knowing that, if the shipping company screws up, they will not reimburse me, that’s the risk I take.

There are outstanding vendors out there, like @Battlecorals and @BoomCorals that go out of their way to provide world class customer service, and that’s why everyone who deals with them goes out of their way to recommend them to others.

But I don’t think this level of customer service should be seen as a requirement, or even the only morally ethical way of doing things.

Consider this, too: if every seller has to cover shipping delays, it stands to reason that we may start seeing price increases creeping up slowly as insurance... and that is both reasonable, and in my view, undesirable.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

UPS. Not offered by FedEx. Back to the question by the OP, the point is moot if the vendor uses the insurance. The cost to us of the insurance is factored into our shipping price of $19.99 for overnight delivery. Every package is insured in order to keep us protected and the insurance company happy. We work with them in that we don't challenge mother nature and we reschedule when weather is bad or when volumes in the system would likely cause delays. We can't always predict weather in specific areas and can't control for errors in the shipping system, thus the insurance. In a perfect world one could argue if they just did their job right why do I need to pay for insurance? Well, we know the answer

Hopefully this once and for all puts to rest that common misconception that you can't insure corals or other livestock.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

No one can control the weather or other acts of God that may delay shipping. We all know that and should consider it before making a purchase. If you bought a car and the next day it was hit by a falling branch, would the dealer be responsible? No. I only purchase coral online from dealers that priority overnight ship their product and provide a decent amount of time to see if the coral survives. That is my choice. Having any perishable item shipped is risky and we as consumers have to decide if we want to take that risk, or find a local dealer to provide the same or similar product.

If the car wasn’t processed to your hand yet then yes the dealer has to take care of it. Again a lot of people are confusing the two ideas here. When you buy something from a store once the thing is in your possession you are responsible for it. You buy a car from dealership and you drive it home it and you hit something then your insurance come in to play and you’ll have to handle that. You buy a car from the dealership but they ordered it for you until it’s handed to you you are not responsible for whatever on their end. Don’t mix these two things together.

 

[KJoFan]

If the car wasn’t processed to your hand yet then yes the dealer has to take care of it. Again a lot of people are confusing the two ideas here. When you buy something from a store once the thing is in your possession you are responsible for it. You buy a car from dealership and you drive it home it and you hit something then your insurance come in to play and you’ll have to handle that. You buy a car from the dealership but they ordered it for you until it’s handed to you you are not responsible for whatever on their end. Don’t mix these two things together.

A better comparison to a car purchase in this case would be you purchased the car, but made the agreement with the dealer that they would deliver it to you (say they were detailing it and the dealership was far away, they offered to bring it to you when it was ready to save you a trip), they crash it or get in an accident on the way to bringing the car you purchased to you, I would imagine it is their fault. Sure, you bought the car, but you haven't taken possession yet. Same would hold true in the case of shipping corals/fish. You purchased it but haven't taken possession, you're not at fault if something goes wrong.