To closed loop or not?

[dbl]

There will be minimal head pressure in a closed loop system, so I think your figures are pretty close.

 

[Upstartreefer]

With the calculator I found online knowing the distance from the holes and the elbows and piping I will need to use the calculator said to be about 4 to 5 feet of head pressure. Which according to the chart is around 2,400 to 2600 gallons per hour which will make my closed loop with my return pump anywhere around 6000. I am planning on 5 times return on my sump pump.

So my next question is is that enough flow for a mixed Reef with minimum to moderate Rock scape?

 

[xaflatoonx]

Would you close loop it from the top of the tank? Or drill holes at the bottom?

 

[Brew12]

With the calculator I found online knowing the distance from the holes and the elbows and piping I will need to use the calculator said to be about 4 to 5 feet of head pressure. Which according to the chart is around 2,400 to 2600 gallons per hour which will make my closed loop with my return pump anywhere around 6000. I am planning on 5 times return on my sump pump.

So my next question is is that enough flow for a mixed Reef with minimum to moderate Rock scape?

My opinion is that you will need to dial your flow back as it will be too much. Not all flow is created equal. Flow from a powerhead is often lost in the churn where the output gets sucked right back into the inlet. With a closed loop you create true flow from the outlets to an inlet at a different location.

 

[Upstartreefer]

I would bring the suction front the top of the tank @xaflatoonx

 

[Upstartreefer]

I agree @Brew12 that's the reason I think the L1 would be great because of the controllability the pump has.

 

[SteveSTL]

The only problem I would have with the gyre or something like a vortech is the ability to turn the head for certain flow in areas of the tank. Thanks for the Fast Response

That is the beauty of them - they aren't directional nozzles - they are pushing huge surges of water. A variable speed motor combined with the ability to time the surges and you can create areas of high, medium and low flow for more of a "tidal" effect. Closed loop nozzles are extremely directional more akin to a spotlight. Lots of flow in one area but rapidly diminishes away from the center.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Closed loop nozzles are extremely directional more akin to a spotlight. Lots of flow in one area but rapidly diminishes away from the center.

depends on configuration, placement, nozzle size and water velocity.

 

[Upstartreefer]

I agree these pumps can do a lot of water movement in different configurations. Can I get the same surges and movement of water with a closed loop and I still don't have to look at powerheads in my aquarium?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I agree these pumps can do a lot of water movement in different configurations. Can I get the same surges and movement of water with a closed loop and I still don't have to look at powerheads in my aquarium?

I dont know about surges. turbulence is the meeting of two laminar streams. surging would be in increase in velocity.
If you haven't looked at the gyres, its def with the look. Here the crazy talking, if you create a constant and turbulent water colom w the CL, the gyres are small and low profile easily hidden and they can surge with high volumes.
there's an old school trick for cl i believe called a surge box, but its big n noisy too. the larger aquariums have gotten away from those to in favor of huge powerheads.
any way it a fair amount of planning and visualizing (scribbling on paper in my house) to get it right.

 

[SteveSTL]

I agree these pumps can do a lot of water movement in different configurations. Can I get the same surges and movement of water with a closed loop and I still don't have to look at powerheads in my aquarium?

I'm not aware of a nozzle that will give you the same spread and force as a propeller. Plus, if you are using a DC pump with a VFD, all of them will surge or rest at the same time. Vortechs can be programmed to work in sync in a master/slave configuration or programmed independently. They give you a lot more freedom as far as water movement having 5 or 6 different programs plus the ability to work together to create chaotic flow. With a closed loop, you are pretty much tied into your configuration. You could put threaded Ts every 6" and then pick and choose which ones to use but that's a lot of plumbing.

There's an article about making a rubble wall for the back of the tank. A Vortech can be placed in the wall and will be basically invisible. http://reef2reef.com/ams/foam-wall-instructable-a-full-how-to-step-by-step-guide.168/

 

[tj w]

I for one wish I would have done a closed loop on my 300g. To get the flow I need I've had to spend quite a lot on powerheads. Also, they are not aesthetically pleasing at all. Just my .2

 

[Upstartreefer]

@saltyfilmfolks I have looked extensively at the gyre if I go with a powerhead that would definitely be the one I go with. All the reviews and videos I have seen make me think it's the best powerhead on the market for complete flow with no dead spots.

@SteveSTL if I used the vortech L1 with 2 pumps couldn't I program them to master and slave to create the same flow as I could with the powerheads in the tank With 6 nozzles?

 

[dbl]

The Vectra L1 actually has a closed loop mode. You may want to drop them an email and see if there is a way to run two of them and sync them together in some manner. I'm not saying it's possible, but it's worth asking the question.

 

[Upstartreefer]

Thanks @dbl I will definitely look into that. I read they have a closed loop mode but didn't think about if the can be sync them together.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Surging a closed loop gets complicated.. Probably been done though.

 

[Brew12]

Surging a closed loop gets complicated.. Probably been done though.

I'm not sure why surging would be complicated. A closed loop with a DC pump would be excellent for developing both surges and gyre flow. Much better than powerheads.
If you set up your closed loop to have multiple nozzles on one end of the tank and the suction on the other you can rapidly change motor speeds to create surges across the entire tank. Flow will be fairly uniform throughout the entire tank unlike doing it with powerheads where you get massive flow near the powerhead that dwindles as it reaches into the tank.
If you set up 2 closed loop systems opposing each other you could alternate gyre flows or run them at the same time to create fantastic turbulence. You could even speed one up while slowing the other to shift where the forces interact the strongest across the tank.
So many possibilities with the advent of DC pumps!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'm not sure why surging would be complicated. A closed loop with a DC pump would be excellent for developing both surges and gyre flow. Much better than powerheads.
If you set up your closed loop to have multiple nozzles on one end of the tank and the suction on the other you can rapidly change motor speeds to create surges across the entire tank. Flow will be fairly uniform throughout the entire tank unlike doing it with powerheads where you get massive flow near the powerhead that dwindles as it reaches into the tank.
If you set up 2 closed loop systems opposing each other you could alternate gyre flows or run them at the same time to create fantastic turbulence. You could even speed one up while slowing the other to shift where the forces interact the strongest across the tank.
So many possibilities with the advent of DC pumps!

how do you keep the water level constant in the sump for the skimmer and ato.
another chamber i believe not attached to the sump skimmer.

 

[Upstartreefer]

If your closed loop is only circulating water in the main display how would that effect your sump?

 

[Brew12]

Just want to throw out a pro/con of closed loops vice powerheads base on my tank (6ft long) with an MP40 on each end.
The advantage of powerheads is that the impellers, by their nature, create more turbulent flow on their output. You can replicate this to a small extent with a closed loop but that is it.
I typically run my MP40's at 25oo gph. They really only have an effective reach 24" into the tank. By 36" the flow is fairly minor. Not a concern for me since the center of my tank is empty space. I count that as 5000gph of total flow in my system.
Lets say I'm running a closed loop with the suction and discharge on opposite ends. If I have 2500 gph on one end then I have to have 2500 gph on the opposite end. In effect, I have just as much total system flow (if not more) than the 5000 gph from my 2 MP40's.