All Delight
2500 Club Member
So did you really get aefw? Cause u did dip and you saw the bite marks. But did the worms or egss get into your system?
Where does pest responsibility start?
- Thread starter ronnie
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So did you really get aefw? Cause u did dip and you saw the bite marks. But did the worms or egss get into your system?
Great thread, and I'm sorry I'm a bit late getting to the party.
I will probably be restating much of what has been said before, with perhaps a few caveats.
It is indeed sad when consumers have come to expect such a low level of quality from vendors. In fact, it's disgusting to me as a vendor. Sure, we are dealing with live animals, and there are many variables. As pointed out ad naseum in this thread by hobbyists and vendors alike, protocols should be in place both at the vendor and at the hobbyist level to assure that flatworms and other pests don't get through. Mistakes can happen; human eyes can fail to detect something, and an infected coral may get through. Quite honestly, that's completely unacceptable in my book. And I'm saying this from experience on both sides of the fence. It's possibly next to impossible to catch every single thing that can come out of a facility, but it needs to be stressed over and over again that your vendor has taken every precaution possible to quarantine and evaluate each coral before releasing it for sale. A customer should have a more than reasonable expectation of getting a healthy, colorful coral that looks like what they plunked down their hard-earned cash for. That's just not that difficult an assumption to make, but we as an industry have occasionally failed to achieve that goal.
Look, it's time consuming, expensive, tedious, and often difficult to make sure that everything gets to you in perfect shape. But guess what? That's our job. It's what we do for a living. Too bad that it costs a lot to dip, evaluate, cut mariculture corals off of their bases, hold them, and release for sale when they're ready. That's the cost of doing business. Reasonable measures should be taken by vendors to help assure a good outcome for the consumer. If the day comes that I can't be held accountable for my errors that result in a problem for a consumer, I belong in a different business. When you travel by airline, you expect to arrive at your destination alive and healthy, every time. Maintaining, checking, and professionally piloting an airliner safely and efficiently is the absolute responsibility of the airline. You don't get on an airplane with the expectation that you'll "probably be safe", or hope that your brain surgeon has "some experience" doing what he does- so why would you purchase a coral with the "hope" that it's healthy and colorful? It should be!
Are there variables unique to our industry? Yeah, there are. Since most coral vendors can't personally deliver each and every package to all their customers, we rely on third parties to do the job, such as Fed Ex, UPS, USPS, etc. Sometimes, stuff goes wrong- shipments get delayed, and corals are lost. It sucks. It happens. It's unpleasant for all. Those are situations where each vendor has some game plan in place to handle. However, making sure that you ship a healthy coral to a customer is not someone else's responsibility. It's the vendor's. Period.
That being said, mistakes get made in our facilities, too. Humans enter the picture. Despite best intentions, protocols, etc., pest might slip through, a coral that is in sub par condition might ship. Maybe someone in the warehouse dropped the ball. No excuse for that, but it happens. Again, the real test of a vendor is what happens after a mistake is made. In my opinion, if I screw something up, I fix it. And trust me, we screw up. If an infected coral somehow gets through, something gets damaged in shipping, etc., it's my responsibility, within reason, to see that my customer is satisfied. Oh well, it may cost us a few dollars to get it right. That's par for the course, IMHO. You want the rewards of being in the livestock business? You have to take the blows as well. Many vendors get this, and have that attitude. With any vendor, you should call and tell them what happened, and, if the vendor is worth his/her salt, as most of the reputable ones are, they'll work it out with you. Really.
So the minute you have a bad experience, it's always a better practice to contact your vendor and see what they'll do to solve the problem before you go out and blast 'em apart on social media. Believe it or not, most of the reputable vendors are pretty cool people who will work with you to solve problems. Give them a chance. Even better still, give them direct feedback and suggestions- just like you're doing here!
Yes, you should dip and quarantine EVERY piece of livestock you receive from EVERY source. It's not an exception...It should be your practice. Just because "XYZ Corals" quarantines and inspects everything they send does not mean that you shouldn't at least evaluate for yourself on arrival. As hobbyists, we have a responsibility to ourselves and our animals as well, and we at least need to tie measures to make sure that things are okay. Every public aquarium in the world has some form of quarantine for newly arrived livestock, and we should as hobbyists, too. I've done it since my first saltwater aquarium...it's part of "best practices" in aquarium keeping. That's NOT unreasonable. It part of the hobby.
Bottom line is that we have a responsibility as vendors to assure you a good product, just as you as hobbyists have a responsibility to the animals under your care to make sure that you are adding healthy ones to your system. It's an imperfect system, but it's reality. We are sort of a team, really- hobbyists and vendors- and together, we can help each other, sharing what we know, holding ourselves to high standards, and advancing the hobby that we love so much.
Just my long-winded two cents worth...
Scott Fellman, Co-Owner
Unique Corals
I will probably be restating much of what has been said before, with perhaps a few caveats.
It is indeed sad when consumers have come to expect such a low level of quality from vendors. In fact, it's disgusting to me as a vendor. Sure, we are dealing with live animals, and there are many variables. As pointed out ad naseum in this thread by hobbyists and vendors alike, protocols should be in place both at the vendor and at the hobbyist level to assure that flatworms and other pests don't get through. Mistakes can happen; human eyes can fail to detect something, and an infected coral may get through. Quite honestly, that's completely unacceptable in my book. And I'm saying this from experience on both sides of the fence. It's possibly next to impossible to catch every single thing that can come out of a facility, but it needs to be stressed over and over again that your vendor has taken every precaution possible to quarantine and evaluate each coral before releasing it for sale. A customer should have a more than reasonable expectation of getting a healthy, colorful coral that looks like what they plunked down their hard-earned cash for. That's just not that difficult an assumption to make, but we as an industry have occasionally failed to achieve that goal.
Look, it's time consuming, expensive, tedious, and often difficult to make sure that everything gets to you in perfect shape. But guess what? That's our job. It's what we do for a living. Too bad that it costs a lot to dip, evaluate, cut mariculture corals off of their bases, hold them, and release for sale when they're ready. That's the cost of doing business. Reasonable measures should be taken by vendors to help assure a good outcome for the consumer. If the day comes that I can't be held accountable for my errors that result in a problem for a consumer, I belong in a different business. When you travel by airline, you expect to arrive at your destination alive and healthy, every time. Maintaining, checking, and professionally piloting an airliner safely and efficiently is the absolute responsibility of the airline. You don't get on an airplane with the expectation that you'll "probably be safe", or hope that your brain surgeon has "some experience" doing what he does- so why would you purchase a coral with the "hope" that it's healthy and colorful? It should be!
Are there variables unique to our industry? Yeah, there are. Since most coral vendors can't personally deliver each and every package to all their customers, we rely on third parties to do the job, such as Fed Ex, UPS, USPS, etc. Sometimes, stuff goes wrong- shipments get delayed, and corals are lost. It sucks. It happens. It's unpleasant for all. Those are situations where each vendor has some game plan in place to handle. However, making sure that you ship a healthy coral to a customer is not someone else's responsibility. It's the vendor's. Period.
That being said, mistakes get made in our facilities, too. Humans enter the picture. Despite best intentions, protocols, etc., pest might slip through, a coral that is in sub par condition might ship. Maybe someone in the warehouse dropped the ball. No excuse for that, but it happens. Again, the real test of a vendor is what happens after a mistake is made. In my opinion, if I screw something up, I fix it. And trust me, we screw up. If an infected coral somehow gets through, something gets damaged in shipping, etc., it's my responsibility, within reason, to see that my customer is satisfied. Oh well, it may cost us a few dollars to get it right. That's par for the course, IMHO. You want the rewards of being in the livestock business? You have to take the blows as well. Many vendors get this, and have that attitude. With any vendor, you should call and tell them what happened, and, if the vendor is worth his/her salt, as most of the reputable ones are, they'll work it out with you. Really.
So the minute you have a bad experience, it's always a better practice to contact your vendor and see what they'll do to solve the problem before you go out and blast 'em apart on social media. Believe it or not, most of the reputable vendors are pretty cool people who will work with you to solve problems. Give them a chance. Even better still, give them direct feedback and suggestions- just like you're doing here!
Yes, you should dip and quarantine EVERY piece of livestock you receive from EVERY source. It's not an exception...It should be your practice. Just because "XYZ Corals" quarantines and inspects everything they send does not mean that you shouldn't at least evaluate for yourself on arrival. As hobbyists, we have a responsibility to ourselves and our animals as well, and we at least need to tie measures to make sure that things are okay. Every public aquarium in the world has some form of quarantine for newly arrived livestock, and we should as hobbyists, too. I've done it since my first saltwater aquarium...it's part of "best practices" in aquarium keeping. That's NOT unreasonable. It part of the hobby.
Bottom line is that we have a responsibility as vendors to assure you a good product, just as you as hobbyists have a responsibility to the animals under your care to make sure that you are adding healthy ones to your system. It's an imperfect system, but it's reality. We are sort of a team, really- hobbyists and vendors- and together, we can help each other, sharing what we know, holding ourselves to high standards, and advancing the hobby that we love so much.
Just my long-winded two cents worth...
Scott Fellman, Co-Owner
Unique Corals
SloppyJ
Well-Known Member
He dipped and the eggs got through. I then held some of his sticks while he was reworking his tank. We went in on a big order together and we were splitting these. I dipped them too. I still got AEFW. It all started when I noticed a huge patch of tissue missing on my valida. Turns out this was my first acro I ever had and had purchased, it encrusted a good portion of the rock I had it on. It wasn't fancy or anything but it was awful pulling it out of the tank to watch it die in the sun. I was attached to it.
At this point I had returned the sticks I was holding. We both knew we had to do something. Luckily for us, all of our sticks were on plugs. So I gave him my stock and he has been QT'ing them for 8 weeks now and they are looking much better.
OP
OP
ronnie
Acro addict
Great addition Scott. Thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts.
I don't know what it is - maybe my failure to deliver properly - but the vendors that have replied their thoughts have been absolutely spot on in their assessment. What I've found somewhat odd is that folks that have replied to my posts in an " I don't see it that way" form, have then turned around and applauded the vendors responses.
Maybe it's my lack of credibility in pushing this (understandable - I'm just some guy in Arkansas that has a passion about customer service - working for the worlds largest retailer will do that). Or maybe I don't put it in the right words - I'm far from a writer.
But the sentiments echoed by the vendors and most others are exactly how I feel.
We shouldn't expect poor quality products because that is the status quo. End of story. And yes - that is the vendors job.
Our job, as customers, is to provide feedback, good and bad, and then expect the vendor to change based on feedback. I probably didn't do any one any good by just sitting by idly when I discovered flatworms this second time. I was hurt, frustrated, and upset. I took it personally. So that is where some of that passion comes from and where the implied "bashing" begins. So that's a learning point for me. I just assumed that was how business was done and accepted it as par for the course. Which sucks. Because it might not be, and if it is, then I would have that experience to pass on.
Overall, I just want to see change. Change begins with one or two that have an idea. Change is hard, it's painful, and normally not cheap. But I think it's our responsibility to enact this change for the betterment of our hobby.
I don't know what it is - maybe my failure to deliver properly - but the vendors that have replied their thoughts have been absolutely spot on in their assessment. What I've found somewhat odd is that folks that have replied to my posts in an " I don't see it that way" form, have then turned around and applauded the vendors responses.
Maybe it's my lack of credibility in pushing this (understandable - I'm just some guy in Arkansas that has a passion about customer service - working for the worlds largest retailer will do that). Or maybe I don't put it in the right words - I'm far from a writer.
But the sentiments echoed by the vendors and most others are exactly how I feel.
We shouldn't expect poor quality products because that is the status quo. End of story. And yes - that is the vendors job.
Our job, as customers, is to provide feedback, good and bad, and then expect the vendor to change based on feedback. I probably didn't do any one any good by just sitting by idly when I discovered flatworms this second time. I was hurt, frustrated, and upset. I took it personally. So that is where some of that passion comes from and where the implied "bashing" begins. So that's a learning point for me. I just assumed that was how business was done and accepted it as par for the course. Which sucks. Because it might not be, and if it is, then I would have that experience to pass on.
Overall, I just want to see change. Change begins with one or two that have an idea. Change is hard, it's painful, and normally not cheap. But I think it's our responsibility to enact this change for the betterment of our hobby.
Good info. But everyone needs to remember they don't lay eggs on living tissue. So when you buy colonies or frags get rid of the base and you won't bring eggs into your tank. I hate getting encrusted frags anymore because the first thing I do is snap it off the plug and throw away the plug with the encrusted base
If only putting living tissue in your tank there is 0 chance to bring eggs in your tank.
reeffirstaid
Active Member
Responsibility, ecologically, sustainability and pest control wise, starts with the collector, if you're talking about a wild caught specimen. For a captive raised, it starts with the aquaculture facility. Poor collection, housing and shipping practices are unacceptable, especially in this day and age, and sloppy and irresponsible care and sale of corals is unacceptable as well. Although, as aquarists, we need to take responsibility for our acquisitions, and maintaining a healthy aquarium ecosystem. The blame game is fine, it just gets you nowhere.
nova65ss
Valuable Member
Not exactly true there will always be that one resilient worm that makes it through the dip if you are not qting and doing multiple dips you're asking for trouble.
I always cut bases and dipped and still ended up with them somehow.
Edit sorry I now see you said eggs[emoji21]
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Daniel@R2R
Living the Reef Life
Excellent post! At the end of the day, there's responsibility at every point in the line. A vendor is responsible for selling healthy livestock...and I'm responsible for adding healthy livestock to my dt. These two are related but one is not entirely dependent on the other. A vendor can be held responsible for selling me a pest infected coral, but he cannot be held responsible for havoc caused on my reef as a whole by my adding that coral to my dt...that is my responsibility.
As is stated in this post, each part of the chain is responsible...the collector is responsible for getting healthy livestock to the wholesaler, the wholesaler is responsible for getting healthy livestock to the vendor, the vendor is responsible for getting healthy livestock to the hobbyist, and the hobbyist is responsible for adding healthy livestock to their dt. Any breakdown at one point does not negate the next person's responsibility.
While we can recognize each party's responsibility, and we can hope for improvement at each point (and even push for it), when it becomes a blame game, it gets us nowhere.
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What were you dipping with? Just wondering because I have not run across any aefw that did not die in a bayer dip. I know that other dips just stun them and you hope they fall off the coral
I do know that tektite found a strain of aefw in his research that were immune to harm from bayer dips. That is a really scary thought. And puts back 10 years when nothing could really get rid of an infestation
gtbarsi
Well-Known Member
Perhaps this is a naive thought but I just wanted to put it out there. Aquacultured corals should be infinitely less likely to have bugs or worms.
If a vendor was able to aquire a wild specimen, break it down in to some frags, and some larger pieces and grow out the corals over many weeks, observing and treating the entire set as needed by the time a proper QT period had elapsed everything would be 100% clean. From there some frags could be sold off and the remaining pieces could be grown out further, fagged, some sold, etc... As long as no new corals were not introduced to the environment all of the corals would be 100% clean. Clearly this takes time, and resources to setup but that is what aquaculturing is all about. It would pay dividends to the company raising the coral and it would help save the reefs as one colony could supply a hundreds of customers with the best possible product.
I suspect that this does not happen nearly as often as it could or should for several reasons. The first of which is the huge prices that wild caught "unique" specimens seem to draw. The limited supply of these seems to severely increase the amount of money people are willing to pay. While others speculate on what people might pay for a single piece and then pay large amounts for it so they can cut it up and sell off the pieces. Conversely corals that are readily available seem to draw a much lower price.
If the consumers would pay a premium for well aquacultured corals it could completely change the landscape of the coral market making aquaculturing more attractive for vendors. This in turn would lead to more successful hobbyist tanks and would definitely help get conservation groups off of this industries back. Companies that specialize in aquaculturing could probably even arrange with governments to acquire specimens from restricted harvesting areas in return for aquacultured specimens to support re-population efforts.
I think the vendors in this industry need to realize that the same knowledge, consistency, time, and patience that builds a hugely successful tank could make a very successful business model.
If a vendor was able to aquire a wild specimen, break it down in to some frags, and some larger pieces and grow out the corals over many weeks, observing and treating the entire set as needed by the time a proper QT period had elapsed everything would be 100% clean. From there some frags could be sold off and the remaining pieces could be grown out further, fagged, some sold, etc... As long as no new corals were not introduced to the environment all of the corals would be 100% clean. Clearly this takes time, and resources to setup but that is what aquaculturing is all about. It would pay dividends to the company raising the coral and it would help save the reefs as one colony could supply a hundreds of customers with the best possible product.
I suspect that this does not happen nearly as often as it could or should for several reasons. The first of which is the huge prices that wild caught "unique" specimens seem to draw. The limited supply of these seems to severely increase the amount of money people are willing to pay. While others speculate on what people might pay for a single piece and then pay large amounts for it so they can cut it up and sell off the pieces. Conversely corals that are readily available seem to draw a much lower price.
If the consumers would pay a premium for well aquacultured corals it could completely change the landscape of the coral market making aquaculturing more attractive for vendors. This in turn would lead to more successful hobbyist tanks and would definitely help get conservation groups off of this industries back. Companies that specialize in aquaculturing could probably even arrange with governments to acquire specimens from restricted harvesting areas in return for aquacultured specimens to support re-population efforts.
I think the vendors in this industry need to realize that the same knowledge, consistency, time, and patience that builds a hugely successful tank could make a very successful business model.
b_rad_G
Active Member
This is exactly right! If you don't want pest follow proper qt procedures. If you don't want to buy browned out ate up frags buy from a trusted source and still follow qt produced. If you receive a frag with pest contact the seller because it is likely an honest mistake. Stuff does happen and no person can be perfect.
Very good post!
Xingu
Active Member
Scott - In your responsible within reason scenario, are you responsible for the piece you sold or for everything in the tank?
We all know mistakes can happen and that is my point. The notoriously bad vendors will be weeded out. To take QT and pest treatment to the extreme by starting at the collection point is going to be costly and a large portion of this hobby will not pay the prices. I can see having vendors with QT protocols installed and paying the additional money as the end user. Having the collectors, transhippers and wholesalers QT would be awesome, but is not realistic IMO. These people would have to setup multiple systems with proper filtration and lighting for long term care and holding. That isn't cheap. It would be costly and the cost must be passed down. If people think the prices will only go up 10% they are shortsighted. It is 10% on each person that handles the product before it gets to you and that is on top of their profit which I would figure is 20% minimum. The live sales are popular because we as hobbyists like to get a deal or at least think we did.
Many of us (myself included) would pay extra for pest free corals, but we are the minority. We are not enough of the market to keep the vendors in business. We would eventually be limited to a few larger companies like ORA and only be able to purchase what they release to the public. Our tanks would all start to look similar. I know that is a stretch, but there is some truth in there.
I have come around (slightly) to Ronnie's way of thinking. I will be more demanding of vendors when making purchases and would like to see them advertising their QT policies and exactly what we can expect if something does slip through the cracks. While I would like to see the vendors demand the same from their suppliers, I will not hold my breath.
I am personally in the process of tearing down my 150 because of an aptasia outbreak that slipped through my QT process. This is minor compared to AEFW. I used this as an opportunity to upgrade to a new 180 and to change my QT protocols. I am sure others that have viewed this thread have also reevaluated their protocols or lack there of. From that point of view this has been a very positive thread.
We all know mistakes can happen and that is my point. The notoriously bad vendors will be weeded out. To take QT and pest treatment to the extreme by starting at the collection point is going to be costly and a large portion of this hobby will not pay the prices. I can see having vendors with QT protocols installed and paying the additional money as the end user. Having the collectors, transhippers and wholesalers QT would be awesome, but is not realistic IMO. These people would have to setup multiple systems with proper filtration and lighting for long term care and holding. That isn't cheap. It would be costly and the cost must be passed down. If people think the prices will only go up 10% they are shortsighted. It is 10% on each person that handles the product before it gets to you and that is on top of their profit which I would figure is 20% minimum. The live sales are popular because we as hobbyists like to get a deal or at least think we did.
Many of us (myself included) would pay extra for pest free corals, but we are the minority. We are not enough of the market to keep the vendors in business. We would eventually be limited to a few larger companies like ORA and only be able to purchase what they release to the public. Our tanks would all start to look similar. I know that is a stretch, but there is some truth in there.
I have come around (slightly) to Ronnie's way of thinking. I will be more demanding of vendors when making purchases and would like to see them advertising their QT policies and exactly what we can expect if something does slip through the cracks. While I would like to see the vendors demand the same from their suppliers, I will not hold my breath.
I am personally in the process of tearing down my 150 because of an aptasia outbreak that slipped through my QT process. This is minor compared to AEFW. I used this as an opportunity to upgrade to a new 180 and to change my QT protocols. I am sure others that have viewed this thread have also reevaluated their protocols or lack there of. From that point of view this has been a very positive thread.
A great ethical/moral question...As a business owner, I'd take a stand that, at some point, personal responsibility comes into play. I mean, as a reefer, if I buy a fish that I see upon arrival looks healthy, and I engage in a quarantine protocol, and my other fish get wiped out shortly afterwards by a mystery disease, is the dealer responsible? I'd think not. An analogy would be a car manufacturer. If you buy a BMW, but fail to use your seatbelt as required by law and recommended by the manufacturer, and are ejected in an accident, is BMW ultimately responsible? I suppose you could argue that you purchased the car because you thought it was "safe", and that the manufacturer is somehow responsible for your injuries, even though they were caused by your lack of judgement...twisted logic, but I suppose it has been argued in some court, somewhere...Although let's face it, the driver HAS to take responsibility at some point for his or her actions...That point being made, I do think that we, as consumers, have a reasonable expectation that when we order corals from a reliable vendor, that the corals be healthy upon arrival...At the very least, the vendor should be more transparent about the measures taken to assure a more healthy coral reaches the consumer.
The reality is, as you suggest, that if more consumers expect more from their vendors, the bad ones will fall by the wayside. Sloppy or uncaring vendors will (hopefully) simply fall apart under the weight of their own poor practices. The sad fact is that many suppliers (by that, I am referring to mariculture facilities and collectors of wild specimens) do not have the facility, time, resourses, or business model which allow them to set up more aggressive quarantine protocols. From their standpoint, their responsibility ends when the wholesaler or vendor receives the corals they ordered in living condition. From there, the wholesaler/vendor has a responsibility to see that unhealthy corals are not unleashed upon their consumers. The hobbyist has a responsibility to make sure, despite the reasonable assurances from the vendor, that the corals are indeed healthy before he or she places them in his or her system. As you indicated, you learn from your mistakes, and adjust your practices and protocols to assure that they don't happen again. Part of being a hobbyist, and, as you suggest- a very positive development for both the hobby and the hobbyist!
Not trying to hijack the thread or toot my own horn, but I wrote a piece a couple of weeks back on the responsibility that goes with being a reefer, and perhaps it bears re-reading...
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/unique-corals/160396-responsibility-comes-territory.html
Again, great thread and terrific responses and input by all!
-Scott
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River_Styx
Community Member
“TBH, I think it would be more alarming to see a vendor selling their corals/fish as “pest/disease free.”
When I first started the hobby I would buy corals from vendors before going to the forums to buy all my corals from fellow members. Just for the reason that I figured that stores can’t catch everything. If you’ve been in this hobby, even for a brief period of time- you know the SAFEST way to introduce new anything to your tank is through QT.
Individual members have a higher success rate to catch things than stores, IMO, just because of sheer volume (and I still got aiptasia -_-). You can’t inspect everything, you can’t catch everything. Animals and corals (predominantly) are wild caught/harvested at stores and what is in the ocean? Everything from predators to the common cold (ich). So, technically, our tanks are unnatural because we remove an element that is actually necessary in the wild and it would be foolish to assume that when we put anything into our tanks we are not adding in something else. (Nuisance algae can come in as a hitchhiker on a thermometer for ex.). Parasites, predators, bugs and the like, especially those in the ocean, have evolved for hundreds if not thousands of years to fill an important niche in their environment. What we as aquarists label as “bad” is in fact necessary to a healthy, functioning ecosystem so to believe that they are not on ANY coral is to be ignorant of their natural state.
I’m sorry that some people have gotten burned by putting in corals with pests on it but IMO every time you put something in your tank you are playing Russian roulette. And I think it is wrong to target a business with such relentlessness due to human error (which can be the stores error or that of the individual).
I’m also not sure how stores dipping coral is a bad thing? We dip corals to put in our home aquarium though we may not see something on them. How is a vendor dipping coral any different? I would prefer to shop at a vendor who dips, for anything and everything. And I don’t think a vendor needs to have a disclaimer of “may contain pests” or the like since….most of us know corals can carry disease/pests?”
Now on to new stuff…
There has been talk that Live Aquaria/ORA does not have ANY pests. This is not true and if you look in the forums you can find evidence of people having issues with AEFW from DD.
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge...colony-removed-order-grow-another-colony.html
On this thread DD also explains their dipping schedule, showing that they do in fact take care to prevent pests in their systems.
Ronnie, you have said that vendors have sent you messages thanking you for bringing up this issue. Someone else mentioned that this was hard to believe and I agree. Why would ANY business thank any individual that threatens their livelihood? I invite ANY vendor who has sent Ronnie a thank you message to step forward since EVERY vendor thus far has echoed each other in that all have practices put in place to minimize the likelihood of contamination but there is always room for human error, imperfection.
There has also been speculation that by having LFS/Vendors have 8 week quarantines will not influence price for coral. If you have taken ANY business classes you would know how wrong this idea is.
Okay, so this is roughly the things that we as aquarists pay for monthly. I’d say the average tank size is 50 gallon so I’m going to round down for what we (Aquarium owners) pay for/use in that size system:
-Heater
-Chiller/AC/fan
-Dips
-Powerheads (non-sps usually 2-3, SPS I’d say depends on the brand but anywhere from 3-4)
-Lights (Halide, expect to pay more; Led, least; T5, somewhere between the two)
-New water (DORI/FW)
-Salt
-Carbon
-Filtration (HOB, light for macro in Sump, if you have one, bio reactor, socks, filter media, etc)
-Skimmer
-Food
-Med tank/QT
-Basically everything above just minus 1-2 things.
This is paid for by whatever job we have (unless you’re an heiress or something..?).
Now, you say that Vendors/LFS’s should have 8 different tanks for each new shipment/week of quarantine. I don’t believe it would in fact be limited to just 8. Most people would agree that in a mixed reef you will sacrifice one coral’s needs for another. Meaning, SPS will be happier in a SPS system, LPS and softies in a system set for them (“dirtier”/less light). So, if a business REALLY wanted to minimize the coral lost, they would have 16 systems (minimum of 50 gallons each I’d say due to the need to keep corals from stinging and house anywhere from 100-300 corals a week) so that ALL types of corals can receive proper care. There would also be the display tanks for people to buy, at least 2 of them (SPS and non). This would also mean that in one week (because it would be one week of coral going on to the sales floor at a time) that group of corals need to pay for ALL the stuff above x16, labor for workers, coral in transit, food, electricity bill, AC, rent, cover cost of any deads, cover shipping fees, make money to cover any refunds, and make enough for the owner to actually be able to support themselves and from what I’ve usually seen, their family as well. And despite what I think a lot of people believe, just because corals aren’t cheap, doesn’t mean that the people who work and run these stores live in mansions.
And even then, this method would not be perfect. If someone is cleaning a med tank, a nudi gets caught on a sponge and without thinking about it they clean another tank then what then? Human Error. No one is perfect, no quarantine is perfect.
I'm not exactly sure why some people keep making it sound like LFS/Vendors dont dip/take care of corals/pests when plenty of vendors have said that they do and other members have mentioned that if stores didnt, everything would be sick and dying and the store would go out of business.
LFS already dip their stuff, take care of 100’s more coral than most of us possess, find coral we special order, scour through piles of junk coral to find things they can hopefully use to hold up their store and keep a roof over their head. And on top of all that you want to tell them to do perfect QT because some people choose to not do it? Admittedly, I’m not perfect, I don’t dip everything and if I ever got a pest I would blame myself for not being more careful. And if anyone posts a question asking whether or not to dip or I’m talking to someone about coral and pests I ALWAYS tell people to QT/dip to be safe. Even if I don’t practice what I preach I at least preach it because it is the RIGHT way to add in new coral/fish.
When I first started the hobby I would buy corals from vendors before going to the forums to buy all my corals from fellow members. Just for the reason that I figured that stores can’t catch everything. If you’ve been in this hobby, even for a brief period of time- you know the SAFEST way to introduce new anything to your tank is through QT.
Individual members have a higher success rate to catch things than stores, IMO, just because of sheer volume (and I still got aiptasia -_-). You can’t inspect everything, you can’t catch everything. Animals and corals (predominantly) are wild caught/harvested at stores and what is in the ocean? Everything from predators to the common cold (ich). So, technically, our tanks are unnatural because we remove an element that is actually necessary in the wild and it would be foolish to assume that when we put anything into our tanks we are not adding in something else. (Nuisance algae can come in as a hitchhiker on a thermometer for ex.). Parasites, predators, bugs and the like, especially those in the ocean, have evolved for hundreds if not thousands of years to fill an important niche in their environment. What we as aquarists label as “bad” is in fact necessary to a healthy, functioning ecosystem so to believe that they are not on ANY coral is to be ignorant of their natural state.
I’m sorry that some people have gotten burned by putting in corals with pests on it but IMO every time you put something in your tank you are playing Russian roulette. And I think it is wrong to target a business with such relentlessness due to human error (which can be the stores error or that of the individual).
I’m also not sure how stores dipping coral is a bad thing? We dip corals to put in our home aquarium though we may not see something on them. How is a vendor dipping coral any different? I would prefer to shop at a vendor who dips, for anything and everything. And I don’t think a vendor needs to have a disclaimer of “may contain pests” or the like since….most of us know corals can carry disease/pests?”
Now on to new stuff…
There has been talk that Live Aquaria/ORA does not have ANY pests. This is not true and if you look in the forums you can find evidence of people having issues with AEFW from DD.
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge...colony-removed-order-grow-another-colony.html
On this thread DD also explains their dipping schedule, showing that they do in fact take care to prevent pests in their systems.
Ronnie, you have said that vendors have sent you messages thanking you for bringing up this issue. Someone else mentioned that this was hard to believe and I agree. Why would ANY business thank any individual that threatens their livelihood? I invite ANY vendor who has sent Ronnie a thank you message to step forward since EVERY vendor thus far has echoed each other in that all have practices put in place to minimize the likelihood of contamination but there is always room for human error, imperfection.
There has also been speculation that by having LFS/Vendors have 8 week quarantines will not influence price for coral. If you have taken ANY business classes you would know how wrong this idea is.
Okay, so this is roughly the things that we as aquarists pay for monthly. I’d say the average tank size is 50 gallon so I’m going to round down for what we (Aquarium owners) pay for/use in that size system:
-Heater
-Chiller/AC/fan
-Dips
-Powerheads (non-sps usually 2-3, SPS I’d say depends on the brand but anywhere from 3-4)
-Lights (Halide, expect to pay more; Led, least; T5, somewhere between the two)
-New water (DORI/FW)
-Salt
-Carbon
-Filtration (HOB, light for macro in Sump, if you have one, bio reactor, socks, filter media, etc)
-Skimmer
-Food
-Med tank/QT
-Basically everything above just minus 1-2 things.
This is paid for by whatever job we have (unless you’re an heiress or something..?).
Now, you say that Vendors/LFS’s should have 8 different tanks for each new shipment/week of quarantine. I don’t believe it would in fact be limited to just 8. Most people would agree that in a mixed reef you will sacrifice one coral’s needs for another. Meaning, SPS will be happier in a SPS system, LPS and softies in a system set for them (“dirtier”/less light). So, if a business REALLY wanted to minimize the coral lost, they would have 16 systems (minimum of 50 gallons each I’d say due to the need to keep corals from stinging and house anywhere from 100-300 corals a week) so that ALL types of corals can receive proper care. There would also be the display tanks for people to buy, at least 2 of them (SPS and non). This would also mean that in one week (because it would be one week of coral going on to the sales floor at a time) that group of corals need to pay for ALL the stuff above x16, labor for workers, coral in transit, food, electricity bill, AC, rent, cover cost of any deads, cover shipping fees, make money to cover any refunds, and make enough for the owner to actually be able to support themselves and from what I’ve usually seen, their family as well. And despite what I think a lot of people believe, just because corals aren’t cheap, doesn’t mean that the people who work and run these stores live in mansions.
And even then, this method would not be perfect. If someone is cleaning a med tank, a nudi gets caught on a sponge and without thinking about it they clean another tank then what then? Human Error. No one is perfect, no quarantine is perfect.
I'm not exactly sure why some people keep making it sound like LFS/Vendors dont dip/take care of corals/pests when plenty of vendors have said that they do and other members have mentioned that if stores didnt, everything would be sick and dying and the store would go out of business.
LFS already dip their stuff, take care of 100’s more coral than most of us possess, find coral we special order, scour through piles of junk coral to find things they can hopefully use to hold up their store and keep a roof over their head. And on top of all that you want to tell them to do perfect QT because some people choose to not do it? Admittedly, I’m not perfect, I don’t dip everything and if I ever got a pest I would blame myself for not being more careful. And if anyone posts a question asking whether or not to dip or I’m talking to someone about coral and pests I ALWAYS tell people to QT/dip to be safe. Even if I don’t practice what I preach I at least preach it because it is the RIGHT way to add in new coral/fish.
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River_Styx
Community Member
I would argue ALL vendors strive to keep pest free tanks. Doesn't mean those same vendors dont have pests or ulterior motives (like competition). Just saying.
Also, no, it doesn't really count if second Ronnie since you guys seem to be close enough that you would hold some corals for him when he was having trouble. Sorry, I just need more proof.
Also, no, it doesn't really count if second Ronnie since you guys seem to be close enough that you would hold some corals for him when he was having trouble. Sorry, I just need more proof.
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