Where does pest responsibility start?

[Pete polyp]

Been following this one and have wanted to add to the discussion with out sound self promoting being a vendor myself. Not sure if thats even possible but ill try to give it a whirl. I have no intention of any hostilities towards any other vendor or hobbyist in any way:angel:. These are simply my thoughts


I have had the conversation with many customers and they can all attest to my own passion on the subject. Pest control is something i take very seriously. I can completely understand ronnies point of view as someone who has also had and lost a thriving sps tank to flatworms years ago. If you have not had them then you really just don't fully understand of the scope of the damage that they can cause. Even if your tank manages to seem ok, in the long run its just completely deflating as a hobbyist. The delight you once had looking at your acros is replaced by disappointment and paranoia.

AEFWs are by far the most underestimated and most damage causing pest out there. My heart still flutters a little when I see one fly off a new wild piece during inspection. the fact is that these things are one of the absolute worst aspects of the hobby. Untill some millionaire to be invents an in tank treatment we are stuck with them.

As a vendor I get asked very often by customers if they should dip there order. My answer is always the same and goes something like this.

"while I struggle to exhaust every effort and take an extremely aggressive approach to pest control in my own system I still could never suggest that someone not at least dip any new arrival with out exception. Full QT would be better" Anyone who has asked me this can attest to the following lecture they got from me about my obsessive methods on how i manage to do it and offers of how and what my exact methods are in detail. Granted i am a small timer vendor and do not have even remotely the volume of in and out type of sales as the larger guys but my operation is as such that if I contracted them in any of my systems it would be devastating. So its in my own extreme best interest as a business owner to keep them out at all costs. My inventory is comprised mostly of mothers grown from frags and are not easily replaced. its as simple as that. I DO NOT want them in my system. My efforts do not translate to higher costs. it's just what i need do to keep my mothers healthy long term.

Having said that, I can't say that I have ever had an order of wild pieces come in without at least one worm tucked somewhere and trust me if they are on them I WILL FIND THEM. I honestly can't see how any other vendor that is moving more could ever rid there system of them. They have them now and that is that. I would be even more suspicious of larger places that have been around longer. All it takes is one egg and the system is contaminated. To believe that any wholesaler is selling pest free sps is not realistic or even practical in any way. I would even go as far as to say impossible on that scale.


I, just like any hobbyist simply assume that any acro i buy has them and treat them as such. So its a fine line for sure. If you want to blame anything blame yourself or the explicative worm! In the end its the hobbyist or vendor(whoever is buying the corals) responsibility to keep them out of their own systems but the more aware people are of how to treat and effective QT methods, the less of a problem they will be with any luck.


FWs are just one of those things that you don't realize are as horrible as they are until you have them. I can feel it in the tone of some of the posters in this thread who have clearly been through it. Its a terrible experience and has a way of leaving scars. With any luck we will have a proven treatment eventually and discussions like this will be a thing of blissful nostalgia.

I applaud your concern and effort in doing what you can to ensure a better product to your customers. I also fully understand that your doing this to protect your investment in many different ways. I can't seem to figure out why any vendor would risk their livestock and business by way of bad publicity. The silver lining will be that the businesses practicing in a manner to protect customers and themselves from pests will be the ones who make it long term.

 

[Tahoe61]

Excellent post and thanks for sharing your thoughts. : bigthumb:

Agreed.

 

[82engineer]

Bravo Adam. Well said. It Is up to the end user to be responsible enough that no matter what they do the best they can if only just for themselves. I have lost many but not all corals from my tank when I had them and I got them by not qt'ing. I was lucky enough to have a separate system to remove all my pieces and colonies to and treat them accordingly Now I know that is my responsibility going forward to qt to make sure it does not happen again and mine alone. People that rely on others are ultimately too lazy to do the work themselves. The old saying that if you want something done right do it your self applies here neatly.

 

[nova65ss]

Do you know what they are currently growing out for future release? I have no idea, but what I do know is some of these corals took years to find one that meets their standards. They may have to frag a colony several times before they get a colony that they would consider releasing into the retail market.

Point is they are not buying and selling corals on a weekly basis.

 

[ronnie]

Bravo Adam. Well said. It Is up to the end user to be responsible enough that no matter what they do the best they can if only just for themselves. I have lost many but not all corals from my tank when I had them and I got them by not qt'ing. I was lucky enough to have a separate system to remove all my pieces and colonies to and treat them accordingly Now I know that is my responsibility going forward to qt to make sure it does not happen again and mine alone. People that rely on others are ultimately too lazy to do the work themselves. The old saying that if you want something done right do it your self applies here neatly.

You had me right up the last part. That again is us settling for subpar corals. It's easy to fall back into that. It's a muscle and we must exercise it.

With that said, I am in no way advocating not QT'ing at the end user level.

 

[tyler1503]

I believe it is up to the end user to dip and QT whatever goes into their tanks, whether it be a large colony, a half inch frag, a sick fish or even a single turbo snail. But I also think ANY vendor worth his salt will take that extra precaution to do his/her best to make sure no pest gets sent out to the buyer. I would hate to buy a $500 frag and know the seller didn't bother looking at it while it floated in some insecticide for a short period of time and all they did was bag it and ship it. Any vendor that claims to have good stock (let's face, they all do. No one says "look at this crappy bleached acro that won't grow. $150 per 1 inch frag.") should look after that stock and if that means dipping and quarantining it, then so be it.
Both parties, the seller and buyer are responsible. The seller is responsible for their product before it gets shipped. Good products are one key feature to any good business.
The buyer is responsible for the product after it is received. Good husbandry is the key to any good reef tank.

 

[RedReefer]

Following. I agree it's both parties responsibility to inspect, dip, quarantine. I also agree and don't think anyone wholesaler or not should sale/ship infected coral. That's just plain bad business! It's like this if you walk into a pet store and see some nice coral, but notice bitemarks/stn would you buy it anyways. Hobby/wholesalers should treat orders as the customers are viewing everything as they are packing orders. If a LFS sold sick coral/fish I dought they'd be in business more then a year. I think everyone needs to do there part to stop the spread of pest.

 

[TJ's Reef]

Bravo Adam. Well said. It Is up to the end user to be responsible enough that no matter what they do the best they can if only just for themselves. I have lost many but not all corals from my tank when I had them and I got them by not qt'ing. I was lucky enough to have a separate system to remove all my pieces and colonies to and treat them accordingly Now I know that is my responsibility going forward to qt to make sure it does not happen again and mine alone. People that rely on others are ultimately too lazy to do the work themselves. The old saying that if you want something done right do it your self applies here neatly.

I also applaud Adam, yet I took his statements quite a bit differently than you. He (Adam) stated very clearly to the level of responsibility that he personally takes to and be accountable for in ridding Corals of their inherent pests and that secondarily he also strongly suggests a follow up by the end consumer/hobbyist. Your statement above highlighted in red can easily be read into describing lazy Vendor relying on us hobbyists to do their work. And the last quote is exactly why people like Adam and companies like ORA do what they do........... Like Ronnie I am having a very hard time with some of the reasoning with the opposition here. It is a fact that you can indeed run a successful profitable business with reasonable prices and that does the 'Right Thing' by taking responsibility for the health and well being of their and our livestock. So, back to the meat of this thread topic "Where does the pest responsibility start ?" Quite simply put, "It starts at the beginning as most things do" And as end consumers WE DO HAVE THE POWER TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN but not until people stop allowing crappy unethical business practices to be the norm.
I have been in the Reefkeeping side of this hobby for just over 32 years and 'Old School' Marine systems a few years before, I have worked and managed in the Retail end and was given the opportunity to work with a very respectful Diver/Collector and friend in Hawaii and was honored to see and be taught practices of ethical collection and shipment of Tropical Marine Fish and Invertebrates so I have very high expectations of and very low tolerance for lazy greedy individuals or companies that are strictly in it for the profit. Going back to one of my earlier comments "These are living creatures here not shiny rocks or knick-knacks" those who do not respect this should not be allowed to, let alone prosper in the Coral/Fish businesses.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Pete polyp]

Point is they are not buying and selling corals on a weekly basis.

The point I'm trying to make is 100% pest free is possible and happening already. That was the sole purpose of the first mentioned post about this topic and it was sidetracked.

 

[82engineer]

Don't quite understand the highlighted portion in regards to adams post but ok. Assuming that everyone in this hobby actually knows what pests are out there( too many new people to be realistic) and that they will A. have the guts to tell the store, wholesalers, etc.. that I won't stand for it or B. refuse to buy something from a business that is most likely doing just good enough to survive because they don't have the wherewithal to set aside a space,time, money to qt everything that comes into their shop and also absorb the cost of any loses as well. because we all know we still lose things in qt no matter how good we are. There are stores that can afford to implement these procedures and not only survive but thrive. But not every store can and we all know this. It's the human condition, some people settle for a lower quality product for many reasons. Either they can't afford it or wont spend the money on it if they can get away cheaper in their eyes( even though in the long run it always costs more) or they don't have the access to it. And if we are trying to be realistic it will only drive the cost up on an already cost prohibitive hobby for most.

 

[ronnie]

I'm not so certain the costs would increase that much. I think you'd see a ripple effect.

Vendors QT coral -'coral grow faster and have better color - coral produce more frags - frags sell faster with better color - more frags available from the vendor - more available means possibly lower prices through supply and demand

 

[tyler1503]

I don't believe it has to be a huge difference in price if a vendor decides to QT. It costs me $17 a quarter in electricity to run my 24 and my 5 gal, add the price of salt and that's a total of $53 a quarter.
These vendors may have systems 10x the size so let's say 10x the price (it would cost considerably less than that for electricity, but to keep it simple I'll just say 10x). That's $530 per quarter. They might have 1000 pieces through these systems per quarter which means they would only need to add 53c per piece (They may have several of these systems, but that means extra coral can be put into each, so the maths is the same). Add on cost for the time it takes for each piece to be inspected, moved around the systems etc, say $10 a piece and round up. Giving the vendors the upper hand when it comes to the price four times (a 300 gallon coral QT is pretty much unnecessary overkill unless your a pretty big facility, I calculated the price of salt as retail not wholesale, over calculating the cost of electricity and rounding the price up) that gives us an extra $11 per piece. Add on the extra profit everyone wants to make and it's a total of $15 a piece (that's just the markup for the QT procedure, there's the extra markup on the coral itself but that would have already been factored into the price of the individual coral).
That's just an average number as nicer pieces could be an extra $25 and not so nice pieces might be an extra $5. The math still pans out.
If I had enough cash to drop $500 on a nice coral, I wouldn't worry about paying an extra $25 to ALMOST guarantee it were pest free and for the piece of mind that goes with it. And if I were to buy a cheap $10 frag, I would worry about spending the extra $5 for it to be QT'd either.
It's not a big price difference at all. Especially considering the cost of hardware in this hobby.
Oh, plus what ronnie said would decrease the cost even more so.

 

[nola90]

I've seen some of these LFS that take stringent care of their corals that dip 500-1000 frags twice a week still get pests that slip through their own eyes, I can only imagine a online vendor that deals with 3-4x as many frags they may slip once in a while.

Infections to a tank will happen if you're not paying attention, but if you're an experienced or at least semi-responsible hobbiest you'd know if you saw a fish or coral not doing too well from shipment and showing signs of infection/illness (fish) or bugs like RB or AEFW on a sps, than you need to start becoming more aware.

Certain places I've dealt with had a nudibrach on a zoa frag (TINY little bugger, only saw it when I was trying to pop off a bubble algae) and one had BJ when I got the euphyllia. I emailed them directly, held the coral on the side (took a picture as well) and they eventually got back to me and refunded me the cost. I ended up chucking the piece either way. Other places I've dealt with had red bugs and ich from an acro and fish order and they never got back to me after a week worth of emailing. I claimed a dispute on my CC and never shopped there again.

The start of pest control starts at the wholesalers who typically can't control everything with the amount they deal with. The next are the online vendors/vendors in general who get the shipment - the good ones do dip and QT, and then it gets to the hobbiest who should do diligent inspection and QT practices if they want a completely pest free tank.

Issue is, even taking diligent steps, there's always something that slips through the crack in this hobby. I know a local guy who had a 600g tank full of SPS, wanted more higher end pieces and ended up removing half of his colonies, ordered 100 new sps frags from an online vendor, dipped and QT'd everything in a separate 100g frag tank for 3 months. He dipped twice weekly and every month he'd transfer the frag onto a new plug sacrificing a bit of the encrusting base, but he wanted to make sure it was clean since his tank was full of sps and $$ he put in. He came down with AEFW and fought it off for 6 months losing 1/4 of his sps.

If that wasn't diligent enough, than you can't expect any vendor to do that for us unless we're planning on paying even more per frag. The responsibility starts somewhere, but it always ends up on our own laps. A good vendor will fix their mistake if we point it out to them, but those shoddy ones are the ones that don't own up to it or choose to ignore their customers.

 

[nola90]

you forget labor, dipping 1000 pieces twice a week is not something that takes 30 minutes to do.

I've seen LFS take ~5 minutes per 20 frags in a bucket and those were 1inch frags. The wild/mari mini colonies take even more room and you could only do 5-10 per bucket. Shops won't do say 100 at once, it risks hurting the corals and them losing a lot of money.

 

[resortez]

i believe its every single persons responsibility, that is involved in this hobby or industry, to have & provide the best quality animal or product. nowadays, i feel like i have good enough knowledge on how to go about treating for pest & confident enough to see the signs of infection, to the point where i can make a conscience decision on weather i can treat & combat an infected animal or just simply pass on it. i actually get a kick in finding nearly dead coral & bringing it back to it full potential. that being said, it should always start from the top. meaning, that treatment should start from a wholesaler to retailer, down to the hobbyist, everyone, no exceptions. its just good business practice to make sure the customer is provided with good quality product that is secure & has a guarantee. animal or equipment. if not, that business will lose profit & become a money pit. having POed customers & receiving a bad rep, eventually driving away potential clients & future hobbyist. especially when i put myself, in the times when i first started in this hobby. i didnt even have the slightest clue in what i was doing. fighting ich constantly, red slim, pest, disease, infections, etc. having to always buy meds from my LFS (which they were never was much help & every single animal at the shop was on their last breath) & never understanding why this hobby is such a difficult headache to master. with time i understood, but this was after dumping tons of cash down the toilet, literally, thanks to the carelessness of others & my non existent knowledge. now you can see how a lot of people leave this hobby so disappointed, especially from new comers without an once of knowledge & only basing everything on lame TV shows or LFSs that dont practice good habits, which i believe should lead by example. its so unfortunate, that this new comers will never get to experience the true joy of the hobby, but also taking in mind that its the hobbyist responsibility to acquire the proper knowledge & there is no way around it, but to do your homework. thats why it should start from the top, so no one should ever go through the same headache i went through, when i first started. in turn, introducing new hobbyist to this community & creating a larger clientele for the retailers. its a win-win for everyone, if we all just practice good habits & treat all animals like they should & the end result is a beautifully magnificent aquarium to enjoy. happy reefing.

 

[82engineer]

Multiply that by a shipments worth at the wholesalers every week or so and think of the space and equipment needed to do a proper job and the cost per frag/colony goes up and up. You would need at least 6 systems to make sure you aren't adding anything back into a system and then if something slips you have to start all over again or have other tanks and then its almost like a half measure in effectively treating the issue because how can you be sure with that kind of volume.

 

[tyler1503]

you forget labor, dipping 1000 pieces twice a week is not something that takes 30 minutes to do.

I've seen LFS take ~5 minutes per 20 frags in a bucket and those were 1inch frags. The wild/mari mini colonies take even more room and you could only do 5-10 per bucket. Shops won't do say 100 at once, it risks hurting the corals and them losing a lot of money.

Add on cost for the time it takes for each piece to be inspected, moved around the systems etc, say $10 a piece.

That was the labour markup
True most won't do 100 at a time, but they can definitely do more than 1 at a time. It takes a while, but the bigger the operation the more people they will employ. I think a $10 markup is fair. But I don't know anything about business or economics lol.
Most frags I see for sale are 1-1.5 inches so they can do the 5-10 or 20 per bucket like you said

 

[nola90]

I skim read, sorry lol!

In a perfect world, it would only cost a tiny bit more, but you already know the more time and effort, the more every place will upcharge. It is a business at the end of the day, they have costs and bills as well.

The thing I have seen though (when I visited an online vendor and saw first hand when they were shipping out stuff), each frag was taken out of the tank, inspected pretty well, swirled around in small bucket of water, bagged, double bagged, and put into the box. If its a pest, it may be hiding or so small that you don't notice.

Things happen, but like I said earlier, a good vendor will take care of you when you point out to them their mistakes if it slipped through. The bad ones are the ones that ignore you.

 

[Mike J.]

I don't believe it has to be a huge difference in price if a vendor decides to QT. It costs me $17 a quarter in electricity to run my 24 and my 5 gal, add the price of salt and that's a total of $53 a quarter.
These vendors may have systems 10x the size so let's say 10x the price (it would cost considerably less than that for electricity, but to keep it simple I'll just say 10x). That's $530 per quarter. They might have 1000 pieces through these systems per quarter which means they would only need to add 53c per piece (They may have several of these systems, but that means extra coral can be put into each, so the maths is the same). Add on cost for the time it takes for each piece to be inspected, moved around the systems etc, say $10 a piece and round up. Giving the vendors the upper hand when it comes to the price four times (a 300 gallon coral QT is pretty much unnecessary overkill unless your a pretty big facility, I calculated the price of salt as retail not wholesale, over calculating the cost of electricity and rounding the price up) that gives us an extra $11 per piece. Add on the extra profit everyone wants to make and it's a total of $15 a piece (that's just the markup for the QT procedure, there's the extra markup on the coral itself but that would have already been factored into the price of the individual coral).
That's just an average number as nicer pieces could be an extra $25 and not so nice pieces might be an extra $5. The math still pans out.
If I had enough cash to drop $500 on a nice coral, I wouldn't worry about paying an extra $25 to ALMOST guarantee it were pest free and for the piece of mind that goes with it. And if I were to buy a cheap $10 frag, I would worry about spending the extra $5 for it to be QT'd either.
It's not a big price difference at all. Especially considering the cost of hardware in this hobby.
Oh, plus what ronnie said would decrease the cost even more so.

I've read every single post in this thread. Some of the opposition posts are just ridiculous and seem to relieve the seller of responsibility. The original question was "Where does pest responsibility start." Selling a frag $10. - $500. with a pest is just bad business. Especially, if the seller is aware of it. For the dealer to lay responsibility off on the end buyer is also ridiculous. I can order wild caught corals for $700. a box and chop them up and sell them quick before they lose color or die from pests and put that risk off on the hobbyist, but certainly not with a conscious. Anyone who can do that needs to be weeded out of this business.

I'm scared to death of putting anything in one of my tanks and am almost tempted to not add anything, not even a snail, but that's not realistic.

All of that is totally irrelevant if the end buyer is QT'ing to protect their SPS tank, that costs as much as a new car.

So, yes, I would spend the little extra money to get a pest free coral, but would still quarantine.

 

[TJ's Reef]

Well then, let's take a look at this from a different angle. Why would anyone in their right mind want to support a business that hacks up dozens/hundreds/thousands of Coral colonies a month and passes them onto the public with little care. There truly are some beautiful and unique Corals that are imported, you would think that more of the 'Coral Hackers' would take the time to carefully grow out/ propagate the nicer pieces into 'Mother Colonies' to have a constant stream of what would become 'Aquacultured' frags which would have true color, better health with much lower losses for everyone and Hey! could actually be pest free without added work or expense. Once again, if we wish this WE can make it happen by not accepting less.

Cheers, Todd