Where does pest responsibility start?

[nova65ss]

The buck always starts and stops with you as an individual. It is always your responsibility to qt properly regardless of what a store or vendor says they did. Because if you don't you only have yourself to blame!

Exactly it's the society we live in everyone wants to blame someone else. I got aefw last year and didnt blame anyone but myself.

Doesn't do the wholesaler any good to qt just to send to a lfs or supplier that doesn't qt.

Sounds like we need to blame the guys out on the reef bringing these things in and not inspecting them first. ...

 

[always reefin]

Exactly it's the society we live in everyone wants to blame someone else. I got aefw last year and didnt blame anyone but myself.

Doesn't do the wholesaler any good to qt just to send to a lfs or supplier that doesn't qt.

Sounds like we need to blame the guys out on the reef bringing these things in and not inspecting them first. ...

no ones looking to point blame, we are looking to fix a problem and make this hobby better. If you are going to profit off this hobby you must look to do better

 

[Pete polyp]

The biggest thing in my mind would be that they should have the INTEREST to do it as well not just the time, space, money to do so. The entire goal of their business is to sell nice frags, and wild or aquacultured a nice frag should never include a pest.

There are plenty of vendors here and around the net that have fully pest free frags, its not as uncommon as some of these doubters make you think. Why can't this be the standard? Shouldn't be that difficult, slow down and inspect your stock. The whole speeding through chop shopping frags is another issue, that just tells me they want to get it out of their hands before it browns out or changes color. If you aren't demanding pest free coral yourself as a hobbyist in my mind you are nuts. Its a pest for a reason, we are trying to rid ourselves of them not just deal or live with them. :crazy:



It should still stay the same. Thats the whole point that it should be a double shot of quality QT with the hobbyist and the vendor to assure no pests make it.



I've known my fair share of fish vendors, specifically FW like yourself, and would overall agree with you that it may be tougher than we are making it out to be. However coral aren't fish. You shouldn't need hundreds upon hundreds of gallons like you do to QT PBass, arowana, discus, large catfish, hundreds of tetras, etc.

+1... Well said

 

[ronnie]

It's not about blame. It's about driving awareness and changing the mindset. We, as buyers, drive home the bottom line for these vendors. If we don't accept their current methods, they will either change or go away

 

[nova65ss]

One oroblem I can see is if all suppliers say the qt and offer pest free stuff it will give end users a false sense of security and lead to less people qting.

We all know no matter how hard they try there will always be a few that make it through.

 

[Pete polyp]

One oroblem I can see is if all suppliers say the qt and offer pest free stuff it will give end users a false sense of security and lead to less people qting.

We all know no matter how hard they try there will always be a few that make it through.

understood, but on the other hand.... If you went to ORA and bought a frag would you have the slightest concern of it having pests?

 

[nova65ss]

understood, but on the other hand.... If you went to ORA and bought a frag would you have the slightest concern of it having pests?

I would assume it did and qt it either way.

 

[hybridazn]

understood, but on the other hand.... If you went to ORA and bought a frag would you have the slightest concern of it having pests?

That's a slightly different scenario, ORA is all aquacultured pieces. Most, if not all vendors are dealing with maricultured or wild pieces for the most part.

 

[ronnie]

But they still maintain pest free coral. A testament to what I'd like to see all vendors replicate. Might be a good business model to explore.

 

[TJ's Reef]

As a MOD I'm glad that this thread has remained open and though a bit heated here and there has mostly stayed on course and quite civil.

As a Hobbyist I am ecstatic that Ronnie has pushed this issue ( HUGE Elephant smack dab in center of room) this far and remained pretty much composed all the while. This is and he has stated NUMEROUS TIMES a thread to make people/hobbyists aware, to change their mindset towards what has seemingly become acceptable in our Industry. WE really can change an Industry for the better, for us personally as hobbyists as well as how WE are viewed as a whole from those outside of it looking in, often judging US by the actions of a FEW. For this I applaud Ronnie and a few others like Pete here for making a stand or drawing that proverbial line in the sand. They're just asking for everyone to take a serious look at status quo for many vendors/chop shops and say "No, I will not any longer support your practices so I will take my business elsewhere". I to know very well what it takes to run a Small to moderate sized business and profits do rule the roost but, Ethics, Principles, Honesty and Accountability should trump those profits by us the end consumer. Then the best of businesses will still prosper. The old saying that it is better to make XX % of something than 100% of nothing plays true for those businesses that are really in it for more than just profit. If we were talking 'pretty rocks from a beach' I would not care one way or another but we are talking living creatures here and even the ridiculously small frags that we have also come to accept are made up of many many live animals. So should we not expect everyone to treat them better and with respect.

My 0.06
Cheers, Todd

 

[ronnie]

Well said Todd. I didn't really think it would be such a hotly debated topic. I mean, who doesn't want a better product from a vendor for not much more money?

And if businesses close because the mindset changes, that opens the landscape for new businesses to come in and really set the bar a notch higher.

 

[Pete polyp]

That's a slightly different scenario, ORA is all aquacultured pieces. Most, if not all vendors are dealing with maricultured or wild pieces for the most part.

From my understanding the Marshall islands facility is maricultured. I do understand they aquaculture most of their corals but they all start as wild colonies or maricultured at some point. Even after this extensive care their frags are still cheaper than the "high end" named frags from some of these vendors. My point is this.... If ora can sell their corals and have no pests at a profit then why can't other wholesalers do the same?

I'm also trying to prove what several people had deemed impossible to be possible with showing an example. If other suppliers, wholesalers and vendors practiced similar methods as the companies that are supplying post free corals then this issue could be resolved before it got to the consumer. The problem is that they are buying wild and maricultured colonies for cheap, chopping them to bits within weeks and getting rid of it before the risk of losing the colonies. In turn they are passing the risk on to their customers. Do you really think ora hasn't fried colonies before selling them to the public? There's no doubt in my mind they have had more colonies die in their possession than I have laid eyes on. Its been a part of the easy they conduct business and the end result is what we should expect. I'm only using ora as an example because its a very well known company. There are many companies with similar procedures in quality assurance, and I'm not trying to put a specific company on a pedestal.

 

[nova65ss]

Is there somewhere listed that says they guarantee no pests?

 

[ronnie]

Is there somewhere listed that says they guarantee no pests?

I don't think so, but I imagine with the volume they push out, and the reputation at stake, that if it happened, it would be front page news.

 

[Tahoe61]

Aquacultured Hard Corals | ORA | Oceans, Reefs & Aquariums
ORA has taken the time to identify, collect and culture some of the fastest growing and finest strains of stony corals. We have purposely avoided wild imported broodstock and have sourced more than 90% of our starter corals from existing captive sources around the world. All of our starter corals go through an extensive 6 month quarantine process where they are screened and treated for known coral parasites. Our coral hatchery personnel are exceptionally aware of coral health issues. The advanced quality control methods used at ORA ensure only parasite free specimens are sold.
@nova65ss if you read the link you can get the specifics on maricultured corals.

 

[Pete polyp]

Is there somewhere listed that says they guarantee no pests?

You think they would risk adding a colony with pests to a system that holds millions of dollars in potential?

You're grasping for straws here.

 

[82engineer]

Like nova65ss said everyone in the industry from collectors on down to hobbyists would have to actively participate to do this. Because if one place fails in the chain of custody it sets up a domino effect for the rest of the supply line. Just think in the jump in prices that this would cause. It would at least double if not triple the cost per piece if every stop along the pipeline would have to set up a dedicated qt procedure and setup for every species. It's not as easy or cheap at the volume the wholesalers and retailers are dealing with based on their volume and turnover levels. Either they would have to have massive facilities to handle the load or they would have to dial back on their orders to deal with a reasonable amount at one time therefore the cost for those pieces would skyrocket. Some may be able to afford it and still continue in this hobby but some will not be able to. That is why regardless of what you think others SHOULD do it's about what YOU DO do. Haha I said do do!

 

[Pete polyp]

Like nova65ss said everyone in the industry from collectors on down to hobbyists would have to actively participate to do this. Because if one place fails in the chain of custody it sets up a domino effect for the rest of the supply line. Just think in the jump in prices that this would cause. It would at least double if not triple the cost per piece if every stop along the pipeline would have to set up a dedicated qt procedure and setup for every species. It's not as easy or cheap at the volume the wholesalers and retailers are dealing with based on their volume and turnover levels. Either they would have to have massive facilities to handle the load or they would have to dial back on their orders to deal with a reasonable amount at one time therefore the cost for those pieces would skyrocket. Some may be able to afford it and still continue in this hobby but some will not be able to. That is why regardless of what you think others SHOULD do it's about what YOU DO do. Haha I said do do!

If they can't handle the task then they do need to dial back their business. If they aren't big enough to move 100 healthy frags a week then why are they selling thousands?

 

[ronnie]

So how does ORA have reasonable prices on coral that go through a 6 month quarantine process? How is that viable for only them?

 

[82engineer]

There is always the possibility no matter how remote polyp pete. You can't discount something based on how good a place is. The workers are just as fallible as everyone else. I'm sure that they have a dedicated staff and facilities to isolate any out break or prevent it in the first place but things do happen.