Red Sea Fail, very harsh!! But truthful IMO.

[MnFish1]

Are you not the one consistently saying 70% of reef tanks are Red Sea? I’m just basing it on how many tank leaks I come across anecdotally. Having my full time job in the industry, most tanks around are marineland/aqueon, and I’ve seen more Red Seas leak than the cheaper brands (minus the marineland 300DD)

Actually - I said it - I think once that 70 percent of tanks sold were redsea. And then I think I clarified it by saying RedSea represents 70% of the tanks this company services (i.e. the company I use). In the industry - there is not shortage of people recommending redsea - as far as I know. Do you know something different?.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Yes - there is bias. However - there is also bias on the side of the people that have had their living room flooded - right? They are vehemently against RedSea - though they have no clue as to the failure rates of other tanks (nor do I - except by report). Within these reports something seems odd to me - why does the seam split in the bottom - in the middle - if it were because of the rimless design - seems like the most pressure would be on the top - as compared to the middle on the bottom. I guess it's an interesting engineering question. Having just taken down my smaller (100+ gallon redsea tank) - I will say the gen 1 stand was suboptimal. There was no leaking - but the configuration of the stand was poor IMHO. I still have a 200 gallon freshwater tank upstairs - not worried about it. It's about 5 years old. (OK - I'm a little worried about it) - but - I would be just as worried with a waterbed or another tank with he same style

None of us have a market survey in front of us, but based on the build threads I see on here and facebook, Red Sea do not make up anywhere near the market share compmared to their failure share. Their design changes kind of show that the exact problem which is so obvious to the consumer is indeed what was causing the leaks. In my opinion, it's just a flawed product. Red Sea charges a premium for everything they sell but the quality never seems to justify it. I looked very closely at a few of their Reefers when I was buying and I simply couldn't see any real design or equipment decisions which justified spending 3.5k CAD vs 1.2k CAD for other brands. Now you add on this seam failure issue, and it just is so bizarre from my POV.

Here you go. It is an SR120.

Oof, that's a big boy, too.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Actually - I said it - I think once that 70 percent of tanks sold were redsea. And then I think I clarified it by saying RedSea represents 70% of the tanks this company services (i.e. the company I use). In the industry - there is not shortage of people recommending redsea - as far as I know. Do you know something different?.

The servicing industry makes a very poor sample considering people who buy Red Sea generally have cash to burn and value convenience over other values. I used to do servicing and generally worked on the same couple brands of equipment, but those were far from our top sellers in the store itself. Aqueon, Marineland, Hagen were still king by volume.

 

[MnFish1]

None of us have a market survey in front of us, but based on the build threads I see on here and facebook, Red Sea do not make up anywhere near the market share compmared to their failure share. Their design changes kind of show that the exact problem which is so obvious to the consumer is indeed what was causing the leaks. In my opinion, it's just a flawed product. Red Sea charges a premium for everything they sell but the quality never seems to justify it. I looked very closely at a few of their Reefers when I was buying and I simply couldn't see any real design or equipment decisions which justified spending 3.5k CAD vs 1.2k CAD for other brands. Now you add on this seam failure issue, and it just is so bizarre from my POV.



Oof, that's a big boy, too.

The question in my mind is 'is it a flawed product' - Mine is 7+ years old - or is it something else. I just put up a poll - hopefully will truthfully vote - if they have a redsea tank - and if it has failed.

 

[MnFish1]

The servicing industry makes a very poor sample considering people who buy Red Sea generally have cash to burn and value convenience over other values. I used to do servicing and generally worked on the same couple brands of equipment, but those were far from our top sellers in the store itself. Aqueon, Marineland, Hagen were still kind by volume.

There is no evidence for sentence 1. No one would (unless they were stupid) - buy a tank they knew was a bad design. Yeah - I guess it depends on where you work. I still am waiting for someone to post a realistic comment concerning the risk of RedSea failing as compared to other brands

 

[MnFish1]

The servicing industry makes a very poor sample considering people who buy Red Sea generally have cash to burn and value convenience over other values. I used to do servicing and generally worked on the same couple brands of equipment, but those were far from our top sellers in the store itself. Aqueon, Marineland, Hagen were still king by volume.

PS - no you're wrong - anyone in the saltwater hobby has 'cash to burn'. You're saying - RedSea were not top sellers in your store - or in the area you worked - yet - you're saying that they are bad - with no experience? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding

 

[Northern Flicker]

PS - no you're wrong - anyone in the saltwater hobby has 'cash to burn'. You're saying - RedSea were not top sellers in your store - or in the area you worked - yet - you're saying that they are bad - with no experience? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding

There's a pretty big difference between people who are into the hobby but must be efficient with their spending vs people who spend an extra 2k for a sleeker look (?) and because the brand is popular (especially on instagram). I used to love selling wealthy people the luxury equipment - it was all about look, brand and convenience, not performance. The margins were outrageous.

The people who have their marine tanks serviced either have a disability (maybe 3 customers in my entire career) or have a lot of money and enjoy looking at the tank/pond but aren't obsessed with the minutae of tank care. These people often own many other luxury brands as well.

I don't think they are bad - I think the G1 was a flawed product. I do think they are wildly overpriced, in the same way that someone will buy an $800 blender to do tasks that a $200 blender will do for the same quality and longevity.

 

[Cell]

Reason would suggest there are far more Aqueon/Marineland type tanks in the wild than any other brand, perhaps combined. Your average aquarium owner is not paying for a maintenance service or even frequenting the specialist LFS's. They certainly aren't R2R regulars or even users. They are going to Petco/Petsmart or the equivalent and buying neon tetras for their kids.

 

[CrunchyBananas]

Actually - I said it - I think once that 70 percent of tanks sold were redsea. And then I think I clarified it by saying RedSea represents 70% of the tanks this company services (i.e. the company I use). In the industry - there is not shortage of people recommending redsea - as far as I know. Do you know something different?.

Yes, out of the many companies I know, the only one that recommends Red Sea has a ware house of them, all others avoid the brand like a plague. Due to both failures and poor, proprietary design.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Reason would suggest there are far more Aqueon/Marineland type tanks in the wild than any other brand, perhaps combined. Your average aquarium owner is not paying for a maintenance service or even frequenting the specialist LFS's. They certainly aren't R2R regulars or even users. They are going to Petco/Petsmart or the equivalent and buying neon tetras for their kids.

I can tell you that a certain pretty big store here in southern Ontario Canada would sell roughly 6-8 skids of marineland and aqueon tanks per week. Hard to give exact quantities, but this includes bare tanks and kits of all sizes. Probably close to 130ish units a month, depending on the time of year (cooler months = more people active in the hobby).

We'd sell usually 2-3 biocube packages, roughly 10 a month.

Red Sea systems were closer to 1-2 a month, but the profit margin was huge on them. We had some pretty high end city clientele that would always be interested.

This is anecodotal, but I think people here are underestimating the FW side of the hobby. Could be those tanks are leaking too, but why don't we see constant posts about them on the forums? And usually when I do see leaks, I also see terrible homemade stands, unlike Red Sea whose tanks are failing on their in house stands...

 

[Phlynamjax]

My thought is that any tank can fail. However, Redsea tank had a major design flaw. Therefore many redsea tank failed and redsea handle this very poorly. I will never buy a redsea tank.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Reason would suggest there are far more Aqueon/Marineland type tanks in the wild than any other brand, perhaps combined. Your average aquarium owner is not paying for a maintenance service or even frequenting the specialist LFS's. They certainly aren't R2R regulars or even users. They are going to Petco/Petsmart or the equivalent and buying neon tetras for their kids.

I’m curious how many people raise a big stink in the forums when their dollar per gallon big box store sale tank leaks after a few years (if they even kept it that long if it was for their kids goldfish or tetra, or if like you mentioned they aren’t on the forums anyway) versus say a twentyish dollar per gallon tank of whatever brand. I wonder if there’s a correlation between cost and emotion, cost and perceived quality/durability, etc. no doubt there have been issues reported, and not wanting to take away from that, just curious is all. I also wonder about the actual costs involved in construction comparatively. Three quarter inch thick glass in itself is not cheap. The added weight in shipping and handling must add a substantial amount. Being able to use cheap manual labor assembling on a table versus having to have specialized equipment handling like hoists/lifts/automated manufacturing etc. Basically, how much more profit per unit or per dollar spent is there? Side note, I’ve never seen an lfs owner driving a Lambo, living in a ginormous mansion from pushing more expensive aquarium in a box kits. Maybe some of the giants in the industry, but for sure not the local yocal lfs in the strip mall

 

[ErikVR]

I’m curious how many people raise a big stink in the forums when their dollar per gallon big box store sale tank leaks after a few years (if they even kept it that long if it was for their kids goldfish or tetra, or if like you mentioned they aren’t on the forums anyway) versus say a twentyish dollar per gallon tank of whatever brand. I wonder if there’s a correlation between cost and emotion, cost and perceived quality/durability, etc. no doubt there have been issues reported, and not wanting to take away from that, just curious is all. I also wonder about the actual costs involved in construction comparatively. Three quarter inch thick glass in itself is not cheap. The added weight in shipping and handling must add a substantial amount. Being able to use cheap manual labor assembling on a table versus having to have specialized equipment handling like hoists/lifts/automated manufacturing etc. Basically, how much more profit per unit or per dollar spent is there? Side note, I’ve never seen an lfs owner driving a Lambo, living in a ginormous mansion from pushing more expensive aquarium in a box kits. Maybe some of the giants in the industry, but for sure not the local yocal lfs in the strip mall

Exactly. I had a good laugh reading about all these 'huge' profit margins. We're talking peanuts here. There are no big margins on the retailers end. Most of them are happy to turns a slight profit each month.

Not everything is a conspiracy. Companies aren't evil. If a company is not publicly acknowledging an issue it's probably due to legal reasons. They're not looking to flood our living rooms on purpose. If they find a design flaw, they will do everything within reason to design the next product in a better way. It's simply not in their best interest to sell you poor products at a premium price.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Exactly. I had a good laugh reading about all these 'huge' profit margins. We're talking peanuts here. There are no big margins on the retailers end. Most of them are happy to turns a slight profit each month.

Not everything is a conspiracy. Companies aren't evil. If a company is not publicly acknowledging an issue it's probably due to legal reasons. They're not looking to flood our living rooms on purpose. If they find a design flaw, they will do everything within reason to design the next product in a better way. It's simply not in their best interest to sell you poor products at a premium price.

Very naive post. I've seen landed cost and sold them retail, Red Sea and the retailer are making very healthy profits on these "luxury" tanks. But hey, a lot of people will think more $ means higher quality - I was more than happy to take their money.

Also, the conspiracy comment is a lazy strawman. No one is saying there is a conspiracy. I wouldn't expect more from someone who thought some aquarium service guy's comment on his client's tanks was a good representation of the market. Yikes! lol.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Exactly. I had a good laugh reading about all these 'huge' profit margins. We're talking peanuts here. There are no big margins on the retailers end. Most of them are happy to turns a slight profit each month.

Not everything is a conspiracy. Companies aren't evil. If a company is not publicly acknowledging an issue it's probably due to legal reasons. They're not looking to flood our living rooms on purpose. If they find a design flaw, they will do everything within reason to design the next product in a better way. It's simply not in their best interest to sell you poor products at a premium price.

Small business can be tough. People think that it’s so amazing to be your own boss, make millions, take vacations when and wherever you want, barbeque using bricks of hundred dollar bills instead of charcoal….reality is quite a bit different. I’ve never ran a fish store but I will say this. I would stop selling a product immediately if there was a trend of seam leaks. One I couldn’t live with myself knowing there’s a problem that I’m potentially passing on, and two it’s a business killer. Yes, it would probably end the relationship with the vendor but I’d rather lose a vendor over a customer

 

[Northern Flicker]

Small business can be tough. People think that it’s so amazing to be your own boss, make millions, take vacations when and wherever you want, barbeque using bricks of hundred dollar bills instead of charcoal….reality is quite a bit different. I’ve never ran a fish store but I will say this. I would stop carrying a product immediately if there was a trend of seam leaks. One I couldn’t live with myself knowing there’s a problem that I’m potentially passing on, and two it’s a business killer. Yes, it would probably end the relationship with the vendor but I’d rather lose a vendor over a customer

Why would you?

You don't carry the weight of the liability, nor does the customer blame you for Red Sea's failure. Not to mention, you likely have inventory, and you like are making a much better margin on a RS tank then on any livestock you sell or empty tanks you might carry.

Small LFS' make up a tiny fraction of the market anyway. I rarely see ma and pa LFS' that survive on aquarium hardware now.

 

[CrunchyBananas]

Exactly. I had a good laugh reading about all these 'huge' profit margins. We're talking peanuts here. There are no big margins on the retailers end. Most of them are happy to turns a slight profit each month.

Not everything is a conspiracy. Companies aren't evil. If a company is not publicly acknowledging an issue it's probably due to legal reasons. They're not looking to flood our living rooms on purpose. If they find a design flaw, they will do everything within reason to design the next product in a better way. It's simply not in their best interest to sell you poor products at a premium price.

My attitude, I think they had an unfortunate miscalculation trying to get a product to market.

 

[brandon429]

I truly agree with post #93 they are not profiteers or opportunists red sea is a legit hobby staple. just had a heckuva bad run sequence on a few thou units am thinking

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Why would you?

You don't carry the weight of the liability, nor does the customer blame you for Red Sea's failure. Not to mention, you likely have inventory, and you like are making a much better margin on a RS tank then on any livestock you sell or empty tanks you might carry.

Small LFS' make up a tiny fraction of the market anyway. I rarely see ma and pa LFS' that survive on aquarium hardware now.

Liability wouldn’t be the issue. Maybe it’s different in the fish store world, although I can’t imagine how, but my experience has been that customers go to the point of purchase when problems arise before dealing with the manufacture. A hot headed, unhappy customer isn’t always rational. Washing your hands of it and telling the customer to deal with the manufacture direct can put you at ends with the customer. My experience is that the customer feels that you as the business have some weight to throw around with a vendor to resolve any issue. Which is true to a point, but I was speaking in the hypothetical of willfully pushing a product with a known issue (and I’m not saying that what’s going on here). Random things occasionally happen for whatever reason and going the extra mile to get a satisfactory resolution from the manufacture for a customer is worth the time and effort. I also have morals and compassion which are not great attributes for a salesperson, but I will say that I had no shortage of repeat and referred clients. I guess it really depends on your model, turn and burn (the old adage of an idiot being born every second) or local family, community and customer first

 

[Snoopdog]

Seems like the most vehement defenders of Red Sea their handling of this is coming from people who already own a Red Sea tank.

I don't know, but there could be some bias there. Sometimes I defend my Dodge even though I know it sucks and that the companies track record for support is bad.

Bingo